can this jumper and spindle be put back together?

[that bloke.]

what do you think?

 

[Plouasne]

what do you think?

I don't see why it could not be reassembled, the groove in the jumper stem looks like it was made to be a "pinned" or "captive" jumper, so there might be a little trouble getting past the pin if its still protruding

 

[that bloke.]

thats the thing , it is supposed to be captive but there is nothing in the spindle to hold it together.
could it be soldered perhaps? the tap it came from is around 90 - 100 years old so replacing it is out of the question.

 

[stevetheplumber]

it was probaly never captive if it was you should be ablt to see the pin in the spindle knock or drill it out and replace with a bit of bronze welding rod file smooth with a needle file
if theres no pin it was never captive

 

[Plouasne]

One method of making a jumper "captive" was to, what was termed "bump" it, the end of the screw spindle was not turned flat across the end, but a slightly tapered "upstand" was left at the orifice where the jumper spindle fitted, with a corresponding groove in the jumper spindle, and when the jumper ( the jumper spindle was a tight fit, at the upstand ) was inserted into the screw spindle, and the jumper plate "bumped" the "upstand" would deform into the groove in the jumper spindle, making it "captive"

This was how the valves that John Bolding & sons made, they also made the covers on the valves without threads so that the covers would not get "limed up" and be easy to remove for washer changing

I spent about a year with Bolding's before becoming an apprentice

A bit of history, the head office and show room was in George street close to Bond street, they had two branches one in Euston road almost opposite the tube station, another behind Selfridge's, the brass foundry was just off Kings Cross, they were also tied in with Dent & Hellier (hospital equipment) offices in Soho, and Thomas Crapper, Kings road Chelsea

 

[that bloke.]

One method of making a jumper "captive" was to, what was termed "bump" it, the end of the screw spindle was not turned flat across the end, but a slightly tapered "upstand" was left at the orifice where the jumper spindle fitted, with a corresponding groove in the jumper spindle, and when the jumper ( the jumper spindle was a tight fit, at the upstand ) was inserted into the screw spindle, and the jumper plate "bumped" the "upstand" would deform into the groove in the jumper spindle, making it "captive"

This was how the valves that John Bolding & sons made, they also made the covers on the valves without threads so that the covers would not get "limed up" and be easy to remove for washer changing

I spent about a year with Bolding's before becoming an apprentice

A bit of history, the head office and show room was in George street close to Bond street, they had two branches one in Euston road almost opposite the tube station, another behind Selfridge's, the brass foundry was just off Kings Cross, they were also tied in with Dent & Hellier (hospital equipment) offices in Soho, and Thomas Crapper, Kings road Chelsea

boldings stuff was lovely , they bought crapper out before going into liquidation didnt they? crappers name was then snapped up and the new crapper started to make expensive repro stuff.

if i look into the hole in the spindle i can see what looks like solder or a whitish substance. i think it was captive because the other tap has the jumper firmly fixed to the spindle.
i cannot see a pin anywhere in the spindle threads.
would the tap still function properly if i leave it like this? would it be better on the cold rather than the hot as there might be more pressure on the cold.

 

[stevetheplumber]

One method of making a jumper "captive" was to, what was termed "bump" it, the end of the screw spindle was not turned flat across the end, but a slightly tapered "upstand" was left at the orifice where the jumper spindle fitted, with a corresponding groove in the jumper spindle, and when the jumper ( the jumper spindle was a tight fit, at the upstand ) was inserted into the screw spindle, and the jumper plate "bumped" the "upstand" would deform into the groove in the jumper spindle, making it "captive"

This was how the valves that John Bolding & sons made, they also made the covers on the valves without threads so that the covers would not get "limed up" and be easy to remove for washer changing

I spent about a year with Bolding's before becoming an apprentice

A bit of history, the head office and show room was in George street close to Bond street, they had two branches one in Euston road almost opposite the tube station, another behind Selfridge's, the brass foundry was just off Kings Cross, they were also tied in with Dent & Hellier (hospital equipment) offices in Soho, and Thomas Crapper, Kings road Chelsea

god id forgotten about boldings the shop on euston rd actually run right through to warren st behind
the ware house man at george st would chip the side of the bath that was going against the wall for half a quid and youd get the bath half price
we used boldings a lot during my apprenteship as the company i worked for was in jermyn st
about ten plumbers and only the foreman had a van(morris minor when i started and escort when i finished )the rest of us walked or used buses and tubes i was once stopped from taking a gas bottle on the tube when i went back they put the bottle in a sack and sent me back

i was once sitting on a bus with a six foot of 22mm chrome in my hand and another passenger grabbed it thinking it was the hand rail and wound up in a heap on the floor
we did everything that the other trades didnt roofing. cleaning cookerhoods and duct work in resturants ,shoveling pigeon crap of roofs crittal windows, glazing and even some plumbing
like most builders we had an influx of painter every spring im sure most of then were prison trained the rest were just out of colney hatch
in those days the building trade was fun loads of practical jokes sneaking of swimming in the serpentine sunbathing in the parks or on the roofs where we were supposed to be working whistling the girls from the scaffold happy days

 

[Plouasne]

god id forgotten about boldings the shop on euston rd actually run right through to warren st behind
the ware house man at george st would chip the side of the bath that was going against the wall for half a quid and youd get the bath half price
we used boldings a lot during my apprenteship as the company i worked for was in jermyn st
about ten plumbers and only the foreman had a van(morris minor when i started and escort when i finished )the rest of us walked or used buses and tubes i was once stopped from taking a gas bottle on the tube when i went back they put the bottle in a sack and sent me back

i was once sitting on a bus with a six foot of 22mm chrome in my hand and another passenger grabbed it thinking it was the hand rail and wound up in a heap on the floor
we did everything that the other trades didnt roofing. cleaning cookerhoods and duct work in resturants ,shoveling pigeon crap of roofs crittal windows, glazing and even some plumbing
like most builders we had an influx of painter every spring im sure most of then were prison trained the rest were just out of colney hatch
in those days the building trade was fun loads of practical jokes sneaking of swimming in the serpentine sunbathing in the parks or on the roofs where we were supposed to be working whistling the girls from the scaffold happy days

Remember the trade counter at George street??, Old Arthur Meaking, "Bike" Bezikle (sp) the senior counter hand, who had to be addressed as Mr, forget the other persons name just remember his first name as Alec (who had been in the Chindits) Mary at the cash desk, with the paint, glass and lead counter, then behind or rather at one end of the counters, the lead and glass bays "Alfie" Angel was a driver, white sanitary ware was down the back, coloured ware was on the third floor, above that "C" shop, where specials were assembled, and brass siphons etc were made, those old boys were artists with a hand thread cutting chaser, and a lathe

Old "Joe" was their in house plumber, who would go all over the country to service any of the companies fittings installed in a Country Gentleman's house

Boldings were taken over by Folkards the polythene chemical waste company, and moved to between Shepards Bush and Acton, and the brass foundary moved to Andover

The Ladas w/c was old even when I was at Boldings, a Victorian model if ever there was one, high level flush tank, Mahogany covered with a drop valve, 2" flush pipe (lead of course) with a Mahogany seat and cover, quite often fitted by a cabinet maker, which brings me on to another tale, about my old man, who was a cabinet maker, and had to fit a w/c seat for the old queen Mary when she was alive

This involved a lady in waiting, who had to go and see the queen when the seat was in place, and ask her to try the seat out for hight, it took four "goes" to get it the right hight !, up half an inch, no down a quarter of an inch, etc, and every time a person sat on the seat a spray of perfume was sprayed

 

[johnsco]

I would try to solder it.
Use tin-lead solder wire.
You might need to use a good liquid flux depending on just what type of brass it is.
Buff the surfaces with scotchbrite or wire wool to remove all oxide and muck.
See if you can tin the surface of the jumper stem.
Tin the bore of the spindle.
Flux the surfaces and assemble.
Heat the assembly and the solder should flow between the two surfaces and give you a good joint.
Good Luck.

Johnsco

 

[Plouasne]

I would try to solder it.
Use tin-lead solder wire.
You might need to use a good liquid flux depending on just what type of brass it is.
Buff the surfaces with scotchbrite or wire wool to remove all oxide and muck.
See if you can tin the surface of the jumper stem.
Tin the bore of the spindle.
Flux the surfaces and assemble.
Heat the assembly and the solder should flow between the two surfaces and give you a good joint.
Good Luck.

Johnsco

If you fix the jumper to the spindle, when you screw down the spindle the washer will be worn by the turning action of the seating, and eventually cut through the washer

If it was a pinned jumper at one time do what steve has suggested

 

[johnsco]

Post #3 from the original poster says that he thinks it is supposed to be captive

Post #5 suggests that the assembly may have been swaged.
In which case, it may or may not have rotated.

Post #6 says that the other tap has the jumper fixed into the spindle and not rotating.

Even if it wears the washer 'cos it doesn't rotate, the washer will probably last for years.
Even if it does eventually have to be replaced, it's a better option than having to replace the tap now.

Cheers.
Johnsco

 

[stevetheplumber]

boldings stuff was lovely , they bought crapper out before going into liquidation didnt they? crappers name was then snapped up and the new crapper started to make expensive repro stuff.

if i look into the hole in the spindle i can see what looks like solder or a whitish substance. i think it was captive because the other tap has the jumper firmly fixed to the spindle.
i cannot see a pin anywhere in the spindle threads.
would the tap still function properly if i leave it like this? would it be better on the cold rather than the hot as there might be more pressure on the cold.

they used to come like that cold water loose jumper.hot water fixed jumper we even had different washers for hot and cold red and black a little tap on the jumper stem to spread it a little and then tap ,it in to the spindle will keep it in place

 

[that bloke.]

cheers guys ,
the jumper on the other spindle from the other tap is fixed , its right up tight to the threads. i was quite surprised by this also as this will indeed accelerate wear on the washer.

at first i thought that because they are quite old taps they were all made like this way back in the day. however i have some edwardian taps here and the jumper on those does move freely.
i then had a close gander at the washer and it looks to be recessed so it encaptulates the tap seat rather than sits on top of it , perhaps this helps the longevity of the washer.
can washers like these still be baught?

this is the tap in question.
i could replace the taps as a pair but antique taps can be quite expensive so id rather repair than replace.

even though the jumper shape would suggest it being pinned i cannot see a hole for a pin anywhere so it looks likje it may indeed have to be soldered.

they used to come like that cold water loose jumper.hot water fixed jumper we even had different washers for hot and cold red and black a little tap on the jumper stem to spread it a little and then tap ,it in to the spindle will keep it in place

thank you Steve , i had a suspicion that the cold jumper may not have been fixed.
how do you mean 'spread the stem'?

 

[johnsco]

Smart-looking tap.
I'll have a look in my "scratching box", but I'm not optimistic I'll find a washer like that.