Soap suds prevent new shower tray training

[Ade]

Hi I have just had my bathroom extended and a shower enclosure fitted. A 'rapid flow' drain/trap has approx 2 metres of pipe where it joins the pipework of the original bath drain, then another metre or so to the outside wall. The gradient of the drop seems fine. All is ok until shampoo or soap is used at which point the suds collect around the drain and the vortex swirl that was taking the water away stops. The water backs up a bit due to the decreased swirl and when the shower is switched off I'm left with suds around the drain and a scum in the surrounding shower tray.
If I disperse the suds during the shower the vortex resumes and all is ok.

The bathroom shop says the drain and trap are their standard issue and would cost around £40 if bought separately. The drain contains a sort of barrel trap that can be removed for ease of cleaning. The plumber says the drop in the pipework should be sufficient for it to drain ok.

Does anyone have any ideas how I might solve this? Unfortunately the floor has been tiled but I do have access to the shower/bath drain join.
Many thanks
Ade

 

[Winston]

Could you post a picture of the trap? And I hate to say it but you have said you have no access why? It should be? If not very poor planning and not within water regs.

 

[NickH]

Its not an unusual phenomenom, i've seen it a few times and as long as the tray doesn't overflow then i wouldn't worry too much.

 

[Ade]

Thanks Winston, I've uploaded a photo to Flickr PA281128 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!.

NickH do you know what causes this? I'd rather not have to clean out the scum round the tray each time I shower if it can be avoided!

thanks again
Ade

 

[Hugh]

your shower tray and bath waste pipes should not be connected!! lets say the the waste pipe gets blocked goin into the stack, the only place it can go is back up the pipe into your shower tray & over your floor.

if your shower tray is one of those thin ones you'll prob need an 90mm outlet trap if your shower is pumped you'll defently need an 90mm trap- outlet, a standard trap on one of these tray with an eletrick shower should be fine, hope this helps abit

cheers

 

[Ade]

Update- when I switched on the shower this morning it immediately backed up severely even before soap used. The slightest use of a plunger solves it and generates a strong vortex (the kind I'd like) for a couple of minutes before it returns to the original problem I oulined. Perhaps this provides a clue?
Thanks
Ade

 

[Winston]

This is done but its not good practise if no one has thought how access to trap if there is a problem. Has this shoer tray ever allowed the flow of water away? In situations like this it would have been a good idea for a non return to be put in the waste. And for planning a access in the floor with a tile on top that could be removed should a problem occur.

 

[stevetheplumber]

partial blockage by the sounds of what youve said try a dam booster or similar?

 

[HTB]

try removing the centre pull out part of the trap and leaving it out for a while to see what happens.

 

[justlead1]

Hi. The dynamics of foam is far more complex than that of water, and may well be acting as a plug suspended by air, held together by the detergent. Why not use a soap that produces less? Good Luck

 

[Bernie2]

Hmm!

Another point to consider is if you have got an Air Admittance Valve fitted instead of an open vent. It may be back pressure. But could also be caused by partial blockage or use of none swept tees if the waste is teed in with the bath, which it should not be really.

 

[cam]

i had the same prob i removed the insert to the trap and all was well

 

[TGor]

i had the same prob i removed the insert to the trap and all was well

am I right in thinking you mean the tubular insert screwed onto the cover plate which extends down into the body of the "trap" ?? .. if so and you remove this there is no water seal!!

I was supplied one of these some years back and took one look at it and chucked it out .. anything that relies on an easily removable part to maintain a water seal should be banned.

 

[stevetheplumber]

am I right in thinking you mean the tubular insert screwed onto the cover plate which extends down into the body of the "trap" ?? .. if so and you remove this there is no water seal!!

I was supplied one of these some years back and took one look at it and chucked it out .. anything that relies on an easily removable part to maintain a water seal should be banned.

you know a better way to make a trap cleanable without unsightly hatches in ceilings etc?

 

[Ade]

Hi thanks for the suggestions. I've tried a few things but now understand the problem a bit better, it's not the soap. The shower backs up anyway and the soap just makes it worse. If I fill the bath and let it drain then the shower problem disappears for as long as the bath is draining. Slightest use of the plunger clears the problem for a few minutes. Is this something to do with air pressure and if so is there a workaround?
thanks again
Ade

 

[Robtheplumb]

you know a better way to make a trap cleanable without unsightly hatches in ceilings etc?

P traps work ok as there is nothing to get in the way when cleaning

 

[Ade]

Hmm!

Another point to consider is if you have got an Air Admittance Valve fitted instead of an open vent. It may be back pressure. But could also be caused by partial blockage or use of none swept tees if the waste is teed in with the bath, which it should not be really.

Thanks this sounds interesting. It drains into a gutter downpipe. Could an AAV help here do you think?
The Tee is swept but the sweep is short. Do more gradual swept tees exist?
Many thanks
Ade

 

[stevetheplumber]

P traps work ok as there is nothing to get in the way when cleaning

you ever tried getting a snake to go around a p trap the removable grid and tube on a showr trap means the pipe work can be roded from the shower tray without removing the tray or having acces to below

 

[w1nxn]

i have encounted a similar problem at a customers house where the kitchen sink waste upstairs was connected to the shower tray and basin waste in the downstairs bathrooms then out to soil stack. problem was, customer said they ended up with peas and other bits in shower tray every time she did the washing up and let the waste go. on inspection i discovered who ever did the install fitted the 40mm T the wrong way around so each time the kitchen sink was emptied, the T directed the waste water to shower tray first. great example of diy i suspect.

point is, if your T has been fitted incorrectly this could be directing your tray waste up bath run first then struggling to run back down to stack.

and breath......

 

[Ade]

i have encounted a similar problem at a customers house where the kitchen sink waste upstairs was connected to the shower tray and basin waste in the downstairs bathrooms then out to soil stack. problem was, customer said they ended up with peas and other bits in shower tray every time she did the washing up and let the waste go. on inspection i discovered who ever did the install fitted the 40mm T the wrong way around so each time the kitchen sink was emptied, the T directed the waste water to shower tray first. great example of diy i suspect.

point is, if your T has been fitted incorrectly this could be directing your tray waste up bath run first then struggling to run back down to stack.

and breath......

Thanks, don't think it's that as the t sweeps downwards away from the bath. Thanks anyway though
Ade

 

[Bernie2]

The problem is, if its back pressure an air admittance valve will not help, only a vent pipe would do that.

The idea being that the back pressure instead of going up the leg of the trap goes out to atmosphere instead.

However it may be extremely hard to put one in.

I must admit your set up sounds a bit strange to me. I imagine the leg from the tee back to the shower must be pretty long to be getting the problems you seem to be having. Has the pipe got any back falls in it? What size pipe is it? Can you increase the pipe size from the tee out wards? Say 42mm from bath trap and 42mm from shower then upsize to 50mm at the tee?