The New VIY Thread class of Jan 09

[suburbanplumber]

Now then
MAJOR NEW POST ON MONDAY WATCH THIS SPACE

Your pal
Suburban Plumber

 

[secret squirrel]

Today, we all completed energy efficiency. Unfortunately the tone of the day was set by George moaning at the group regarding the posts that have been made on this forum!

I have re-read all the posts and have found that they are well balanced and there are far more positives than negatives! So I didn't really get the point of the talk. However, a response is necessary. Your quite correct George you can't stop people posting nor should you try. Your talk to the group annoyed a large part of us and caused a lot of people wanting to post on this forum.

If the only criticism your company gets is positive then that is not believable.

The whole group has paid approx £7k each. We are all aware that there are overheads etc, therefore we do not to be told about this. We are all adults and have paid a considerable amount of money to be on the course and are disgruntled that you felt the need to address us like children.

NOW THEN THE POSITIVES. I for one am impressed that there is always copper tube, plastic pipe etc. available and fittings and as a group, we are aware about the cost and I watch with amusement as the group rummage through the scrap to find a piece that can be re-used.

Mark, today with his more than able assistant Simon did beautifully at presenting energy efficiency. The subject is not the most interesting we've been taught but as always the humour provided by the two, sometimes at Simon's expense, was excellent. Mark and Simon always do their best with the group and are willing to answer the same question more than once and invariably try and find another way to explain the answer.

Keep up the superb work.

 

[varial]

Hey guys and girls,

Being a bit younger than most and maybe not as wise i was not quite sure of what to make from George’s talk.

At the end of the day all i can put is some thoughts on the course from my point of view,

Classroom

First of all mark is a very capable teacher and everything is put across clearly and he only goes as fast as the slowest person. i don’t think i could of passed or learnt what i have without the help he gave me along with Simon! The classroom weeks are pretty dull and boring but that’s just the way city and guilds have done the course/books and nothing can be done about it. So to me the weeks in the classroom can’t be improved in any way from VIY's position.

City and guilds could maybe send some better illustrated exams and maybe paying £7000 for a course makes you think they should, but don’t forget these exams are meant for colleges teaching 16 years olds over a space of two years if you get what i mean!

Workshops

This is where i have a few niggles, overall the workshops are good so far. Everything is there which you need, like someone said above it does seem funny when we are all scraping through the odd ends bins for bits of pipe when there’s 10 packs of new stuff on the shelf for us!

All the teachers are very good at their jobs and although maybe spread a bit thinly on occassions have all the time they can give to you when needed/asked. City and guilds give an allotted time for each task and as everyone knows this is always more than needed, if the workshops weren’t working right then we wouldn’t be getting it done!

My only niggle is the equipment. A few tools need renewing as they are well gone past there use by date! It hasn’t ever stopped us from getting the jobs done as there have been alternatives but it would be nice to have good working steel threaders, vices which are tight to the benches and cylinders which don’t leek from there joints (over used and heavy handed students i would think!).

Part P

Now the only other thing i would mention is for people thinking of doing this course who might be reading this!

Please correct me if I’m wrong but getting the part P certificate from VIY will NOT let me self certify unless i register with a organisation like PARTP.CO.UK - The home of Part P!!! This will cost about £400 depending on which company you go with and they will want you to have the correct equipment which from briefly looking at will cost upwards of £600. You will then need to be assessed on-site by this company which is included in the price and once they are satisfied away you go (with the yearly charge of about £400).

Until the above is done i can’t fit an electric shower and self certify it for it to be turned on (i could fit it and call someone out and pay them to certify it).

I hope what i have said above is correct, if not then please say as I’m not a know it all!
Overall

At this moment in time I’m pleased i have gone on the course, i think in 3 weeks time when finished i will have the confidence to go out there and start working (i have already done a few small jobs). I can’t see this going 'wrong' so thumbs up from me!

Just keep that bloody hot chocolate machine topped up and we will all be fine!

 

[wot-no-joe?]

Hi all cant wait for Major post on monday!! I tend to agree with all of you on the course so far (those that have posted). Mark, Simon & Steve if your reading this -top class tuition can't fault any of you, shame about the materials and tools sometimes, yes I know they are open to student "abuse". Well Georgeous ! didn't do yourself any favours this morning did you ?? fancy coming into class and giving us a (veiled threat) ! as you said it wasn't !! you can't tell a group that if they write on here (plumbers forum) anything that "George" may not like that there may be reprucussions for them later on when it comes to "onsite assessment's" by their assessors !! not a threat ?? what was it then?? friendly advice?? Never mind George you may have lost a bit of bussiness over previous comments on this forum but think of the money you saved by buying softer steel tube instead of the medium you charged us for !!!!

 

[Leaky Squeaky]

As someone who has closely followed the various threads on VIY throughout this website, I feel it is time that I stood up and contributed to comments made both on this site and at VIY.

I am not happy with the manner in which George conducted himself this morning. He addressed the class like the proverbial village idiots despite his utter ignorance and arrogance, which was wholly unprofessional of him.

By stating that our external assessments could be adversely affected by comments made on this site and then by adding “This isn’t a veiled threat” he in fact confirmed, exactly what his previous statement was meant to be. This has induced anger and resentment from those who would otherwise be his allies. If we have been trained correctly, which I believe we have so far, then it should have no repercussions on us students rather him and his business if this weren’t the case! No matter which way you want to dress up what was said – it was a threat.

There is no real arena for feedback directly and anonymously to VIY as a company, therefore it is easier to comment on this site and say it how it really is. George has not asked us for ways of improving the course, it’s content, the company or even whether we wanted a coffee machine or not. We didn’t by the way. The money would have been better spent on fitting central heating in the classroom. You’d have thought it was hard to get a plumber these days.

Whether we are paying £100 or a £6000 we deserve a level of service, standards, materials and equipment that meet our expectations appropriate to the amount we have spent. Otherwise we deserve an explanation an apology or even a refund! We are getting a very good level of teaching despite some failings in equipment and materials and I don’t have to repeat all the positives that the Suburban Plumber or the Secret squirrel have touched upon – Although I would like to point out that the remark about Mark taking over from the chaos of the hugely self righteous Joe “The Tangent” “Awkward” was very appropriate.

Since finding out about VIY, enrolling and now taking the course, the website has changed frequently. The information on the site or even on the brochures do not contain any inaccuracies rather a lack of information pertaining to the further cost of affiliations, associations( re Part P certifying installations), external assessments and exams. The truth was out only when it was too late and we were in the thick of the first week. At least one of two students who left that week did so on the basis of the information pertained from further questions and explanation.
Would I have still gone ahead with the course? I would have had to think a little harder. Particularly since I’m currently scraping by financially and wondering how the hell I’m going to make a living from scratch after this course. (No start-up pack of materials included when we leave) Not that it is a part of VIY’s mandate to deal with my money matters.

This forum has been set up to allow people to see the true colours of any plumbing course in the UK and hopefully people will read this and go into training even with VIY with their eyes wide open. There is no reason why issues can’t be addressed by George or even his staff. If he continues to alienate himself from his customers either by not reading this (properly and thoroughly) or any of the other posts and responding or by sitting in his office and pretending that we’re all OK, then the future for VIY will be pretty bleak.

I would also like to point out that George has not yet taken any of the classes with this group.

I hope I've said what we're all feeling right now

Leaky

 

[reggie09]

Everyone sems to be confused about the "Part P" am i right in thinking you cant even attemp to do the electric work without it, let olone think about producing a certificate for it, likewise do you need part p as a minimum to progress any further in the electric qualifications?.
Must agree with most comments on tutors @ viy, they are very good at helping us understand the various methods and priciples of course content.

 

[maximus180184]

Hi all. Just wanted to put my thoughts of the course at VIY. I think it is a great course. Really enjoying it. I first started looking at courses beginnning of December and found one based in Chessington, London. The attitude i got with them was rubbish. I had to go down for an "interview" to see if i "qualify". What a load of rubbish. Its not if i qualify, its if i want to give them the best part of 5k. When i found VIY, i spoke to Barbara and George and foun them very nice people, down to earth. So i decided to go with them. As from that moment i have had ne regrets. The teachers are great. Mark is a brilliant teacher and i love having the banter with him. The accomodation is a good idea because a hotel room down in chessington for 10 weeks was going to cost me near 4k. The tool box is pretty basic but i wasnt expecting a diamond core bit or an SDS drill. I agree with the others regarding some of the cutting tools for the LCS. They do need to be replaced. Apart from that, its all good. I dont really worry about the negative because at the end of the day, its what you make of it and as long as we have the qualifications and abit of expericence, the rest will come with time and determination. I also agree with the Part P thing but if you are going to be dealing with stuff that can kill i.e Gas, Electric etc, you need to be registered with someone and assessed. More posts to come

 

[suburbanplumber]

At the last count this thread has been viewed 573 times, 74 of them this evening alone!

I’d like to thank all the other students in the class of Jan 09 for the kind words of support, and the people who have posted for their input. If you’re yet to post, your opinions matter and we have fought wars to defend our sacred right to air our opinions without fear of reprisal. We look forward to hearing what you’ve got to say.

I HAVE REQUESTED, IN THE PRESENCE OF WITNESS, THAT GEORGE COME INTO THE CLASSROOM ON MONDAY TO APOLOGISE FOR SATURDAYS BULLYING OUTBURST.

I was extremely upset at being bullied and threatened on Saturday morning (just before an exam) but I don’t believe anything is served by posting in anger so I thought I’d take the rest of the weekend to go for a walk and calm down.

I had started Saturday as a happy customer. However George’s words rang in my ears and caused me to review; promises made at the time of purchase, inconsistencies in the bullying tirade I was subjected to, and the less than perfect nature of VIYs business practices. My opinions are just that, opinions. But the response that airing them has drawn from George has led me to look at some facts that should also be in the public domain so that potential customers, current customers, and all other interested parties can get an understanding of the kind of service you can expect.

At the time of George’s outburst I was the only person on the course whose user name on this forum is common knowledge amongst the class AND staff. I wrote a review of MY experiences in the early weeks of the course. A review in which I praised George and his team. I believe that Joe was not able to provide the standard of instruction I would expect, but I have also stated my unequivocal approval for Mark, Simon, Steve and Brian. I even said I liked George. That’s changed.

On Saturday morning George came into the classroom, launched into a bullying tirade against me, and issued a series of veiled threats to the class, the basis of which was the content of my original post.

George this IS bullying. If you had a problem with me saying what I think it would have been far more courteous (and indeed professional) to speak with me in private. You choose to threaten me in front of my classmates. I have requested you apologise to me in the same situation you attacked me in. You have yet to do so.

George claimed that:
1. One of his competitors had ‘tipped him off’ that his course was being reviewed in a less than positive light on this forum.

Suburban Plumber responds -So you knew of the forums existence but weren’t reading it? That would also suggest you weren’t using the forum as a sales tool yourself. Bit remiss wasn’t it? It’s your name above the door after all.
I and the subsequent posters on this thread all view my comments as positive in nature so I’m shocked to hear these totally unfounded claims.

2. His competitors are using the post that started this thread as a sales tool.

Suburban Plumber responds -As if I believe that! I myself had told George (conversation of last week of Nov 08) I was calling VIY as the other thread had had a few positive comments about HIM in it despite a fair amount of whingeing. The other companies whose reviews I read on the forum did not receive nearly such positive feedback.

3. George claims he had to justify himself to prospective customers who had called and asked him if he was the ‘sweet talker’.

Suburban Plumber responds – Once again I find this hard to believe, but George will of course be able to provide evidence of this conversation. My professional opinion (former sales director and sales trainer) is that this is ‘sales 101’ (i.e the newbie’s class), if he were really unable to overcome such a concern he would never have been able to raise the capital to start VIY.

4. He threatened that if we posted negative comments about VIY, external assessors would read them and it would make life more difficult for us at our assessments.

Suburban Plumber responds – How dare you threaten us, and expect to do so with impunity?

This threat also raises an interesting question; in our phone conversations George told me HIS assessors would be travelling to review my work.
So which is it?
A claim that external assessors have a negative view of VIY, in which case their must be a question mark over his business and training practices? My original post only mentions a one thing I wasn’t happy with, and lavishes praise on the teaching staff. The other thread has been live since 04-04-08.
Or
He himself misled me as to the process by which assessment takes place to influence my decision to book a place on the course?

5. He also claimed this wasn’t a veiled threat.
Suburban Plumber responds – So it must be a direct threat then ‘gorgeous’?

Now then there are a few other things that are worthy of exposure to the ‘sunlight’ of further scrutiny.

Part P
George told me that included in the course was my Part P certification which would allow me to wire new installations within houses, AND certify the work of other trades people. NOTHING was said about joining trade body’s, further assessment, or further fees. I don’t seem to be alone in this understanding. I have also been told by Joe that Part P would enable me to issue PAT tests on tools and installations, I now have no idea if or if not this is the case. Joe added to this confusion and resisted attempts to get a straight answer. Every student I have spoken to seems equally confused as to just what we’ve been sold. What’s your definition of mis-selling?

While we’re on the subject of alleged mis-selling………

1. I was told, by George, that I would be able to have my two days of assessment done the in the week following the course. Now I am being told that this is not the case.

2. The website lists the course as being 400 hours of tuition 9am to 6pm Monday to Friday.

From the VIY site –
IT HAS TO BE AT LEAST 10 WEEKS - City & Guilds state that the course should consist of 400 hours of teaching. This is equal to 40 hours per week x 10 weeks. _(If you choose a City & Guilds course lasting less than 10 weeks you are probably not getting the certificates you require for a career in plumbing.)

However that is not what is being delivered. Class has never started before 9.30 and rarely makes it beyond 4.30.

Lets take a look at the maths
2 hours less than advertised every day = 10 hours per week.
10 hours per week X 10 weeks = 100 hours ie 25% of the course!!!!

3. The course materials were 4 WEEKS late. Unbelievable I know!!

4. As pointed out by wot-no-joe the steel we paid for was not present. If the steel supply company had indeed sent the wrong stuff surely it is VIY’s responsibility to send it back rather than pass on defective materials to its customers?

5. Tools are frequently of dubious quality, welding torches that have bent spindles making them difficult to adjust.
Today I saw the confidence of a student sapped by his inability to set the flame to the right setting, never having used the equipment before he naturally assumed it was something he was doing wrong, as soon as he moved to a bay with a torch fit for purpose his was able to take advantage of the excellent tuition Mark and Simon give in lead burning.
The Low Carbon Steel has provoked several comments on this thread it wern’t easy. But it wasn’t made any easier my VIY issuing worn out Pipe-threaders that strip the threads as soon as they cut them.
Need I go on?

6. George came in and told us that he had sacked Joe, the rights and wrongs of his telling us this aside, if as stated at the time the company had ‘had problems with Joe before’ that surely shows prior knowledge of Joes training not being to a sufficiently professional standard?

So what’s the next step?

If as we all hope, there are credible explanations for all of the questions I have raised I look forward to hearing them. I have asked George to apologise for his outburst. An apology I am yet to receive. So at present I hold out little hope.

Over the next few days we’ll have explosive new revelations about VIY and more so much more!
Stay tuned.

Your pal
The Suburban Plumber

 

[voice of reason]

I will try and be objective in my approach to this course,

George you were entirely wrong with your approach on Saturday, the group felt annoyed about the approach and if there was any further proof required look at the posts. Do I feel as though an apology was due, Yes.

My heart went out to Mark when he came into the class because he was not aware of what was said and there was an icy atmosphere in the room.

I don't feel as if there is any competition out there for VIY, the qualifications that can be achieved in a relatively small period of time are more than offered by any other school that i contacted.

Yes, the books were delayed. Which was a little annoying? This seems to be poor house keeping or if you would prefer a lack of organisation.

Yes, the wrong steel was ordered and should have been sorted again poor house keeping or a lack of organisation. Mark was not impressed and apologised to the group about this and I am sure it will be put right soon.

The main problem appears to be late starts. George, if you need to speak to your instructors maybe you should do so before 9am not in our time.

The instructors are not late they are always early. Again perhaps poor house keeping.

Early finishes, I do take the point that we finish early but if your in a class at 9am and non stop until 4.30. I for one have had enough and as I look around the class they've had enough as well. So I'm a little torn between the suburban plumbers point of view and mine,

The main gripe i have is when it snowed we spent 2 days doing nothing when we could have been in the workshops. There were 2 instructors there.

Some of the tools are appalling but what do you do if they are constantly abused, yes they should be re-newed but how often?

Part P: This confuses everyone and continues to confuse everyone! We appear to all have been given the wrong impression. What can we do?

I don't feel that George has been dishonest regarding the Part P, I just feel that he has not explained it well enough.

I would like George to walk around the workshops more and say to individuals Are you ok? any problems? any questions?

Then maybe any misunderstanding could be ironed out immediately.

I think all these issues could be dealt with quickly and to everyones satisfaction.

On a happier note. George whatever you are paying Mark and Simon its not enough double it!

 

[suburbanplumber]

A very good post dude, you raise some interesting points.

For readers who are not on the course:
Thanks for writing in
And for the record
George has now been in both on Monday and Tuesday and has made no word of apology.

Suburban Plumber