Where does the plumbing stop and the gas engineering start???

[Aqua Mechanica]

Just a quick question, all in the title really.

Obviously as a plumber, I can install all the rads and flow & return pipework for a heating system bt how near to the boiler can I actually get? Am I right in saying the only things I'm not allowed to touch are the gas pipe and the boiler itself?

After all, I did a combi jig at college all those years ago?

(For the record, I'd do the gas but its so expensive and I have no one to work or train with. I've actually decided to do an Honours Degree in Building Services Engineering [Mechanical] instead as it's far easier to achieve!!!)

But honestly, where does the Plumber stop and the Gas Technician start?

Cheers

Ben Wood
Bexleyheath Plumber

 

[fast phil]

Dont touch the flue or the gas pipe, and every thing will be cushty

 

[fuzzy]

good on you for doing the Honours degree, did you have previous quals?

 

[plumbster3456]

Dont touch the flue or the gas pipe, and every thing will be cushty

as above the only thing you cant do is fit the flue and connect gas pipe to meter or boiler.
you can run it to a foot from either but as long as you don't connect it up

 

[fuzzy]

as above the only thing you cant do is fit the flue and connect gas pipe to meter or boiler.
you can run it to a foot from either but as long as you don't connect it up

your not suppose to run the gas pipe let alone pipe it up, big push from GSR on this. its to stop plumbers doing everything and then paying someone to do the final connection and commission, not allowed

 

[kirkgas]

Dont touch the flue or the gas pipe, and every thing will be cushty

you cant hang the boiler bracket to the wall, then put the boiler onto it, and as above you cant fit any of the gas pipe or flue

 

[kirkgas]

as above the only thing you cant do is fit the flue and connect gas pipe to meter or boiler.
you can run it to a foot from either but as long as you don't connect it up

sorry plumbster you need to enlighten us where the one foot rule comes from, it is a total no-no, splitting hairs as we like to do on here, can a plumber run a 22mm copper pipe without connecting it to the gas supply, as until it is connected it isnt a gas pipe is it? then after it is connected (by a gas engineer) he has turned it into a gas pipe, however the problem with that is the gas engineer has to then commission a pipe he hasnt fitted or checked as fitted properly, it breaks the gas regs to connect a gas supply to a pipe without confirming it is fitted as per the gas regs, so the gas engineer has broken the regs, technically the plumber hasnt broken the regs as he simply fitted a spare pipe along side his flow and return, but it is fairly obviuos what it is going to be used for, but i dont have a prob with plumbers doing this, fair play to them for getting a fud to connect it for them and take the rap for the whole install when it all goes pete tong

 

[wards]

been out to a few bg installs where they have used an old flow or return pipe as the gas supply to a new boiler just for convenience.:-(

 

[Bernie2]

Hmm!

True enough there are many anomalies in gas work. For instance if you do a gas check your basically saying the installation is okay?

But if the pipework is in the floor or under laminate flooring where you can't inspect it, all your really saying is that it passes the standard drop test.

You can of course pipe up the water right to the boiler jig, but not hang the boiler as its usually part of the gas train. The flue system is classed as part of the gas train.

But never mind electricity should take over from gas soon and although its perhaps just as dangerous anybody can install it and then call the council out to inspect it for a fee. Which is how it should be.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

as above the only thing you cant do is fit the flue and connect gas pipe to meter or boiler.
you can run it to a foot from either but as long as you don't connect it up

wrong,you cant touch any off it

 

[plumbster3456]

sorry plumbster you need to enlighten us where the one foot rule comes from, it is a total no-no, splitting hairs as we like to do on here, can a plumber run a 22mm copper pipe without connecting it to the gas supply, as until it is connected it isnt a gas pipe is it? then after it is connected (by a gas engineer) he has turned it into a gas pipe, however the problem with that is the gas engineer has to then commission a pipe he hasnt fitted or checked as fitted properly, it breaks the gas regs to connect a gas supply to a pipe without confirming it is fitted as per the gas regs, so the gas engineer has broken the regs, technically the plumber hasnt broken the regs as he simply fitted a spare pipe along side his flow and return, but it is fairly obviuos what it is going to be used for, but i dont have a prob with plumbers doing this, fair play to them for getting a fud to connect it for them and take the rap for the whole install when it all goes pete tong

forget the one foot bit (one inch or one metre it makes no difference) there is no law or regulation against a plumber or heating engineer who are not gas safe registered running a 22mm pipe and soldering it etc until near the boiler / meter trust me who ever says otherwise is wrong.
And also why cant a non gas safe registered plumber not hang the boiler and jig this is news to me.
whoever is commissioning will check everything like hanging of boiler is done right.
I hope whoever says otherwise can refer me to a regulation that says different than what I think.

 

[plumbster3456]

wrong,you cant touch any off it

yes you can

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

yes you can

no you cant gas safe a side we now have to be competent plumbers as well and need to be members of approved schemes or is that scams

 

[oldplumber]

oh noooo not another pantomine performance. See the regs re work on gas related items, who can work on what and youll find that you are not allowed to be paid for working on gas pipework ,flues etc if your not gas registered, if you dont believe us call up gas safe for their opinion, tell them what youve been doing and await a response, then let us all know the outcome.

 

[fuzzy]

if your employed or self employed and not gas safe reistered you cannot work on gas. just coz the pipe hasnt made it to the boiler yet doesnt mean it isnt a gas pipe does it!!! GSR are hot on this to stop this bluff, and i for one agree with it

 

[HoodedClaw]

I've just finished the 6129 and this was hot topic on the heating week... We were told that we can hang the jig and drill the flue hole (both of which I didn't think we were allowed too do, so I questioned it hard) and connect up the wet side. Then Nice Mr gas man comes and connects flue/boiler/gas and commissions. (for £500 last time I had to do it)

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

I've just finished the 6129 and this was hot topic on the heating week... We were told that we can hang the jig and drill the flue hole (both of which I didn't think we were allowed too do, so I questioned it hard) and connect up the wet side. Then Nice Mr gas man comes and connects flue/boiler/gas and commissions. (for £500 last time I had to do it)

now i am being accused of being nice,thats it i am taking black cat gases advice i am off for a strongbow and i dont even like cider LOL

 

[plumbster3456]

oh noooo not another pantomine performance. See the regs re work on gas related items, who can work on what and youll find that you are not allowed to be paid for working on gas pipework ,flues etc if your not gas registered, if you dont believe us call up gas safe for their opinion, tell them what youve been doing and await a response, then let us all know the outcome.

I am gas safe registered so I am doing nothing wrong just so you know however that does not mean I cant ask one of the plumbers I work alongside to run a 22 mm pipe along side the other pipes he is doing does it?
or I cant ask him to hang the boiler if for instance i am doing a gas test or running a gas pipe does it?
people have got some strange ideas about what can and cant be done.
does gas safe registration make you a god ? no it doesnt

 

[Reg Man]

I agree with you Gas Man. The Gas Safety (installation & use) regulations refer to gas work and gas fittings. If you even hang the boiler bracket on the wall this is part of the gas work. Just put the rad's and water pipework in but don't touch the boiler. You can take the front off a boiler, as long as you do not expose a gas way (Combustion chamber).

 

[kirkgas]

I am gas safe registered so I am doing nothing wrong just so you know however that does not mean I cant ask one of the plumbers I work alongside to run a 22 mm pipe along side the other pipes he is doing does it?
or I cant ask him to hang the boiler if for instance i am doing a gas test or running a gas pipe does it?
people have got some strange ideas about what can and cant be done.
does gas safe registration make you a god ? no it doesnt

you are right it doesnt make me God, however if you want me to come along and sign for your work i MUST confirm it is right, the only way i can confirm it is to do it myself, sorry if that seems arrogant, if you have fitted the jig and boiler how do i KNOW it is done properly and wont fall off the wall and cause a major gas leak, re the gas pipe, as i said the gas enginner CANNOT connect a pipe to gas unless he CONFIRMS it is safe to do so, a TT will not confirm this, it needs to be a visual inspection on every joint, which i would do as i fitted the pipe, but cannot do if you have the first fix in and the floors down, so how am i to CONFIRM it is safe and comply with the regs if you have done the pipe before i got there, of course a plumber and gas engineer working together on a heating install has one guy starting upstairs and one downstairs and they meet in the middle but that is the gas guys choice and is still technically wrong for the reasons i gave above
i aint getting into the DIY can i cant i debate, i assume you mean who can do what legally for gain as a two man team or a plumber doing first fix, and as i have said, the jig, boiler, gas pipe and flue are a no-no, if you think i'm wrong contact Gas Safe and tell them you have done these items and you want written confirmation what you have done will allow a gas guy to connect and confirm safety and conformity with the regs

 

[kirkgas]

forget the one foot bit (one inch or one metre it makes no difference) there is no law or regulation against a plumber or heating engineer who are not gas safe registered running a 22mm pipe and soldering it etc until near the boiler / meter trust me who ever says otherwise is wrong.
And also why cant a non gas safe registered plumber not hang the boiler and jig this is news to me.
whoever is commissioning will check everything like hanging of boiler is done right.
I hope whoever says otherwise can refer me to a regulation that says different than what I think.

i'm sure this is what i said, however i also said the gas guy is contravening the regs by connecting this newly fitted empty pipe to a gas supply,

 

[plumbster3456]

I give up if this is the case lol. I have seen people become gas safe registered in less than 6 months with no plumbing experience I know which one of the two I would trust on one of my jobs
1/ plumber 2/fast track gas engineer =plumber hands down
obviously not the actual gas work itself but the soldering of pipes etc

 

[coley]

When you are doing additions to a system and say 50% of the pipe work is inaccessible then how can you check the installation is up to standard.

 

[fuzzy]

a tightness test

remember 'reasonably practicable' you can only be expected to go as far as reasonably practicable

 

[dougs.cowan]

Does this discussion not just highlight the complexity of the detail in the regulations? The regs state that a competent person can work on gas, why does it not just state that to be classed as competent you must be a registered gas engineer.

 

[Reg Man]

I stand by what I sais previous. If you touch or install any thing that is intended to be a gas fitting then you are required to be registered. One opt out is; you supervise the work directly IE: you stand by and watch the work being carried out.

 

[oldplumber]

a tightness test

remember 'reasonably practicable' you can only be expected to go as far as reasonably practicable

If you look at tech bulletin 014 it states that to check on work completed by a non registered person you would be expected to expose pipework if it is buried in concrete screed,, lift floorboards, climb through roofspaces etc,so its a lot more than a cursory check and more than what most customers would call reasonably practicable, especially if you''re whipping up their newly tiled floor.

It also mentions (to my chagrin as fuzzy will be chewing my bum) "No person shalllcarryout anywork in relation to a gas fitting unless they are competent to do so" and "the HSE defines competence as a combination of both training and experience.Therefore anyone who does work ona gas fitting must be competent to do so, whether or not they are required to register with gas safe register"

It seems to me the HSE doesnt know who or what it wants doing as far as defining who may work with gas fittings based on its own definitions. One day it may actually define once and for all who is allowed to do what in what circumstances!, clearly

 

[HoodedClaw]

Does this discussion not just highlight the complexity of the detail in the regulations? The regs state that a competent person can work on gas, why does it not just state that to be classed as competent you must be a registered gas engineer.

because a homeowner can still legally work on his own gas supply if 'competent' and by that its if its deemed safe and by that its if it doesn't blow up. No testing, no paperwork, BUT if it goes wrong, your in jail.

the gas safe is only if your working on property's not being your own or employed to do it.

that said, when you come to sell the place, your still have to get a certificate, and good luck to most diy homeowners getting that!

 

[HoodedClaw]

actually, thinking about it - its rather remiss that the law changed that you can't do your own electrics in your own home, but you can still do gas... least with electrics you dont generally blow the street up!

about time they brought the gas up to date too.

 

[Reg Man]

Not quite. Looking at two different things. Gas work is under requirements of Gas Safety (installation & use) Regulations Which require competance. Electrical is under the Electricity at work Act which require sufficient knowledge and skill so as to prevent danger bla bla bla... ie competance.

There is no requirement for you to be registered, with say NICICE NAPIT ect to carryout electrical work. The problem is, if you are not registered, how done you achieve building regulation certification, under part P, for the fused spur I put in for my new boiler in the kitchen? The only way I could do this is contact building control at the local authority with all of the necessary test certificates, pay them their fee and hope they sign the work off.

There are loads of properties out there, which have not had the building regs work certificated and signed off. I was buying a property in the summer, only to find the oil boiler, installed last year had no building regs Part L. The New consumer unit had No Part P. The vendor tried to fob me off with the test certificates. I threw them back and told them to find the proper building regs certificates. Further to this we found they had converted the grade 2 star listed hay loft in the coach store in to a studio, with no planning at all. Consequently found out, they had applied for planning and been refused, but carried out the work regardless. Result. Propert fell through on breach of planning.

 

[fuzzy]

If you look at tech bulletin 014 it states that to check on work completed by a non registered person you would be expected to expose pipework if it is buried in concrete screed,, lift floorboards, climb through roofspaces etc,so its a lot more than a cursory check and more than what most customers would call reasonably practicable, especially if you''re whipping up their newly tiled floor.

It also mentions (to my chagrin as fuzzy will be chewing my bum) "No person shalllcarryout anywork in relation to a gas fitting unless they are competent to do so" and "the HSE defines competence as a combination of both training and experience.Therefore anyone who does work ona gas fitting must be competent to do so, whether or not they are required to register with gas safe register"

It seems to me the HSE doesnt know who or what it wants doing as far as defining who may work with gas fittings based on its own definitions. One day it may actually define once and for all who is allowed to do what in what circumstances!, clearly

I was thinking of an exsisting installation as opposed to work by non qualified, so would agree with you there.

can i confirm that i have no intention of chewing oldplumbers a*se

 

[fuzzy]

actually, thinking about it - its rather remiss that the law changed that you can't do your own electrics in your own home, but you can still do gas... least with electrics you dont generally blow the street up!

about time they brought the gas up to date too.

you cannot do gas in your own home unless you are competent

 

[HoodedClaw]

you cannot do gas in your own home unless you are competent

Thats correct, and the definition 'at the moment' of deciding that is based on if there are any problems after or not. Not based on qualifications/gas safe/building regs..

Totally wrong as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Reg Man]

Everyone would tend to agree. There are people doing gas work in their homes without any regulation and they may face the consequence if it goes wrong. As trades people though, we do the bulk of the gas work and therfore have to accept the regulations involved. Its the old thing about civil rights and freedom, no such thing as a perfect world. To give you an example: I am fully qualified competent gas fitter but work in management of a business and do not work on the tools and have no registration. My boiler breaks down so I replace it. I am not registered but totaly qualified and competent to do so. Change the regulations and say no one can do the work unless your registered with GSR (Gas Safe Register). I still have a problem though because I can not certificate the work for Part L compliance unless I register with a cometent person scheme or go directly to building control; who are unlikely to sign off the work unless I am registered with GSR. Thought I would throw that one in. What do you think? PS: I know that almost all DIY work is done by people not competent. At least the part L makes it more difficult. Trouble is this Part L certification seems a little weak when it comes to enforcing and it does not necessarily directly involve gas work.

 

[fuzzy]

Thats correct, and the definition 'at the moment' of deciding that is based on if there are any problems after or not. Not based on qualifications/gas safe/building regs..

Totally wrong as far as I'm concerned.

No we've been over this recently, the definition of competent isnt 'if something goes wrong afterwards' as many would have you believe, its KUTE, Knowledge, Understanding, Training and Experience

 

[fuzzy]

Everyone would tend to agree. There are people doing gas work in their homes without any regulation and they may face the consequence if it goes wrong. As trades people though, we do the bulk of the gas work and therfore have to accept the regulations involved. Its the old thing about civil rights and freedom, no such thing as a perfect world. To give you an example: I am fully qualified competent gas fitter but work in management of a business and do not work on the tools and have no registration. My boiler breaks down so I replace it. I am not registered but totaly qualified and competent to do so. Change the regulations and say no one can do the work unless your registered with GSR (Gas Safe Register). I still have a problem though because I can not certificate the work for Part L compliance unless I register with a cometent person scheme or go directly to building control; who are unlikely to sign off the work unless I am registered with GSR. Thought I would throw that one in. What do you think? PS: I know that almost all DIY work is done by people not competent. At least the part L makes it more difficult. Trouble is this Part L certification seems a little weak when it comes to enforcing and it does not necessarily directly involve gas work.

Gas safe dont give a monkeys about Part L, they said to my mate when he phoned em it was a corgi thing

 

[Reg Man]

Your right there: Part L Building Regs and GSR are two totaly different things. But building control will not accept a Part L appilcation unless the gas boiler was installed by a GSR registered business. Its a total nonse. This is part of the reason CORGI lost its bid for the review of gas registration. I know loads of people did not like CORGI, but by them running CPS (Competent person schemes) and gas registration it tied the loose end up. Only registered installer could certificate gas boilers for Part L. Therefore DIY could not get in. Les fogg of HSE sorted that one out by favouring Capita for the bid, who have dumped as much as they can to make profit for their share holders. (at our expense)

 

[plumbster3456]

its not a gas pipe until the gas engineer connectys it to the gas pipework

 

[kirkgas]

its not a gas pipe until the gas engineer connectys it to the gas pipework

that is quite correct, and what must he do before he runs gas through it? confirm it is fit for purpose and installed as per BS6891, and IGE/UP1B, which both demand he checks it is installed properly before he first introduces gas to it, how can he confirm that if he cant fully inspect and confirm that alll joints are properly made and appropriately positioned, and the pipe is properly supported, and properly sized for the load

 

[Reg Man]

Under the eye,s of the Law, if a pipe is installed, which is intented to be used to convey gas, it is gaswork; and therefore you must be competent to install it.

 

[plumbster3456]

kirkgas quote**** that is quite correct, and what must he do before he runs gas through it? confirm it is fit for purpose and installed as per BS6891, and IGE/UP1B, which both demand he checks it is installed properly before he first introduces gas to it, how can he confirm that if he cant fully inspect and confirm that alll joints are properly made and appropriately positioned, and the pipe is properly supported, and properly sized for the load ***quote

because obviously you would not be signing off any pipework with out actually seeing it first which could mean you are up stairs pipeing the boiler and your mate who is a plumber is down stairs running a 3/4" pipe or even 1" pipe which then I could connect it to the boiler and then to the meter and test then put floors back down and test again.
Is this still incorrect kirk gas ? you seem to know a lot on regs or should one of us actually phone gas safe and find out the whole truth on this.
I think nearly every one on here who does a lot of heating will at some time allowed a plumber or heating engineer to do this especially if they are busy hanging boiler.
Also how can a apprentice learn gas if the regs are saying he cant touch the gas train? does this mean I broke the rules when my trades man had me doing the gas tightness before and at the end of every job?

 

[Reg Man]

Great Sense Plumbster3456. You must be satisfied the work has been done properly. The best way to ensure that is to install it yourself. Quite right what you say about trainee's. Trainee's can do the gas work if they are under direct supervision of a competent operative.

 

[kirkgas]

because obviously you would not be signing off any pipework with out actually seeing it first which could mean you are up stairs pipeing the boiler and your mate who is a plumber is down stairs running a 3/4" pipe or even 1" pipe which then I could connect it to the boiler and then to the meter and test then put floors back down and test again.
Is this still incorrect kirk gas ? you seem to know a lot on regs or should one of us actually phone gas safe and find out the whole truth on this.
I think nearly every one on here who does a lot of heating will at some time allowed a plumber or heating engineer to do this especially if they are busy hanging boiler.
Also how can a apprentice learn gas if the regs are saying he cant touch the gas train? does this mean I broke the rules when my trades man had me doing the gas tightness before and at the end of every job?[/QU

i have underlined 2 different bits, the first one is against the regs if an unregistered guy fits a pipe on the same job as the gas engineer later connects it, (you say there are loads of guys doing this, i would agree but it doesnt make it right) if i choose to do this i trust my plumber mate that is my choice,
the second point i highlighted is different, as an apprentice should be supervised, i appreciate, as i have been an apprentice and have subsequently trained quite a few, that there are times an apprentice is left alone, thats life and business, but while doing gas work the apprentice MUST be fully supervised, to ensure when the tradesman connectss it he can confirm the pipes and fittings have been fitted properly,
i can't discuss whether your tradesman was right or wrong to yet you do do tightness tests as an apprentice until you tell me whether you were fully supervised on a one to one basis.

the point you make about a 2 man heating team is different from checking someones work who you dont know or can be sure what the quality is (not in the eyes of the regs, but we all know real life is different) IF a 2 man team choose to work together to fit a full heating system with the gas guy signing it off, who will get investigated if there was a problem? one way round this is for the gas guy to say he was supervising the plumber doing the gas, but the reality is nobody cares who does what until there is a prob, so if there was a prob the gas guy will lie and say he supervised, but will take the rap as the pipe has a problem and he connected/tested it

 

[plumbster3456]

kirkgas yes of course i am only talking about someone who works with me every day , he is fully qualified and time served plumber. I dont sign off other peoples work as I do not know what there work is like and also the way I look at it if every gas engineer did not sign off unregistered engineers work then there would be more work for me who is registered as home owners would have to contact registered gas engineers if they wanted install signed off.
And your answer to the bit about did my trades man supervise me well he was there but half the time he never even checked the u gauge himself to make sure if i said it was tight that it actually was. to be honest the guy was lazy he had me doing most of the work including running the 22mm pipe that would be used for gas but this has made me a better tradesman as I learned a lot this way I was pipeing boilers in second year under his supervision obviously and well he was sitting down drinking tea

 

[fuzzy]

you can work on gas as a trainee if under direct supervision.

The main reason for monitoring closely signing off of un qaulified gas work is the plumber who does the full job and pays somebody to do the paperwork, thats whats wrong, not a trainee doing ssome copper in front of you

 

[kirkgas]

kirkgas yes of course i am only talking about someone who works with me every day , he is fully qualified and time served plumber.

The bottom line is that this practice is against the regs, as he is unqualified and you are "lying" signing it off as your own work, but at the end of the day it is your choice and as i have said many times there will only be a problem with you doing this when there is a problem with the work, if nothing happens then nobody will know you have done it, if you trust his work and want to take a chance then that is fine, i appreciate that many people will agree with you and do the same just to get the job done quicker

 

[Reg Man]

You supervise the trainee. if it goes txxxs uup you take the wrap.

 

[tamz]

The bottom line is that this practice is against the regs, as he is unqualified and you are "lying" signing it off as your own work, but at the end of the day it is your choice and as i have said many times there will only be a problem with you doing this when there is a problem with the work, if nothing happens then nobody will know you have done it, if you trust his work and want to take a chance then that is fine, i appreciate that many people will agree with you and do the same just to get the job done quicker

Come on Kirk. In the real world this happens all the time. What about the big mobs (like the red vans with a pylon on the side) who have maybe one ticketed guy for every 20 or more fitters. The one with the ticket goes around commisioning and signing off and has never seen any work in progress. Might not be 100% by the rules but it happens every day with the knowledge of the "authorities"

 

[Reg Man]

well said Tamz. Rules are rules. only have too answer to them when your up to your bum,like I am with the missies most days.

 

[tamz]

like I am with the missies most days.

Must be related to mine then