HW only works when CH is on, and other problems

[nervous123]

We had a new CH system recently installed, by contractor, as part of general refurb. The Vaillant EcoTec 630 boiler was installed by a Gas Safe engineer (altho Tempest unvented cylinder was not) and the electrics were wired by a NICEIC electrician. Certs recd for both.

Ever since we moved in, we noticed that (a) HW only works when both HW and CH buttons on the Honeywell St9400c programmer are on; and (b) CH works only when HW button is on (HW button alone does nothing).

I've had another electrician come and check the wiring and he said it all seems fine so he reckons it's a plumbing issue.

Checked up in the loft and there are 2 valves (both in 'auto' position) - is that S plan? I've had my wife turn on the various buttons downstairs and as far as I can see there was no movement in either of the valves. (Pics attached - original electrician said the lower one marked 'A' is heating, the upper one 'B' is hot water')

Any explanation/advice gratefully appreciated.

NB. Comments on general quality of installation also welcome. Also, a mate told me cylinder has to be positioned over a load-bearing wall - is he right, and how much of a problem is it if that's not the case? I believe mine isn't.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

never seen anything like this !very poor install !!!!!!
d2 is going to hep with two 90 elbows !
if i was you i would get him back to put it right .no even one clip > i think is wirering problem that you have!

SHOKING INSTALL !!!!

 

[Puddle]

As SafeGasInstall says,very poor,think it would be pointless getting the unqualified installers back
Get a qualified plumber in to sort installation out correctly even if you have to cut your loses
your safety is also involved here apart from your comfort !!

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

GOOD GOD THATS A TERRIBLE INSTALLATION did they throw it in from the van????????

 

[nervous123]

What exactly is wrong with it (I know very little about plumbing). Is it 'just' messy, or should I be concerned about safety?

How much should I expect to pay to have it sorted? Do i need an IPHE reg or will a Gas Sage reg be enough?

Thanks

 

[SafeGasInstall]

i dont know if anything is correct to be honest !some one has to see it to be able to tell you how much it will cost you !

and the electrical work get that check too !

and yes send some picters from the boiler and flue and gas pipe !

PLEASE

 

[GrahamM]

As above, from what is visibly apparent in a couple of basic photos there are a number of safety concerns. Never mind just looking like a dogs dinner of an install.
What is worse there is plenty of space around to work with and would have probably taken same amount of time to do the install correctly.
This needs to looked at in detail by a qualified installer with an unvented ticket to give an opinion. Impossible to estimate looking at a few photos. I'm sure your photos do not show the half of it.

The cylinder must be placed on a base that will support its full weight. Not necessarily over a load bearing wall.

 

[Avatar]

- the pipework is ****ed and looks bent in places
- the cylinder seems to be resting on a crappy piece of mdf
- you have hep joints, seemingly on speedfit pipe
- i cant quite see, but you seem to have 2 motorised valves on the same pipe (1 should be for heating!)
- if it is in the loft, then the pipes should be lagged as well!

I agree the installation is rubbish! The original plumber should come back and sort it out. At least ways why are you trying to solve this problem, without calling the installer in?

I would also like to see pictures of the boiler instal (which could be unsafe). Where is the heating motorised valve - is it that extra one in the loft (doesn't quite make sence if it is)

You cannot have 2 motorised valve on the same pipe (which is the hot supply I presume). There are ways to test these, but you need to know wether there is another one somewhere . . .

 

[GrahamM]

- the pipework is ****ed and looks bent in places
- the cylinder seems to be resting on a crappy piece of mdf
- you have hep joints, seemingly on speedfit pipe
- i cant quite see, but you seem to have 2 motorised valves on the same pipe (1 should be for heating!)
- if it is in the loft, then the pipes should be lagged as well!

I agree the installation is rubbish! The original plumber should come back and sort it out. At least ways why are you trying to solve this problem, without calling the installer in?

I would also like to see pictures of the boiler instal (which could be unsafe). Where is the heating motorised valve - is it that extra one in the loft (doesn't quite make sence if it is)

You cannot have 2 motorised valve on the same pipe (which is the hot supply I presume). There are ways to test these, but you need to know wether there is another one somewhere . . .

Although it is an absolute mess the way it is done. One valve is controlling the hot feed to the DHW and one on the CHW circuit. So that bit looks correct to a degree.

 

[PuraTherm]

This is what happens when you go for the lowest bidder. I wouldn't ask this guy back for love nor money. If you can even get him to call you back. I suggest you get another installer. Ask to see his (or her) Unvented qualifications. It may have been less expensive to go with this guy originally but it will cost you twice as much to correct the work.

 

[nervous123]

This is what happens when you go for the lowest bidder. I wouldn't ask this guy back for love nor money. If you can even get him to call you back. I suggest you get another installer. Ask to see his (or her) Unvented qualifications. It may have been less expensive to go with this guy originally but it will cost you twice as much to correct the work.

The 'irony' - sickening as it is - is that this guy was not cheap at all, he was a smooth-talking contractor who sweet-talked/bullied his way into the deal. Described his work as a 'boutique service' and from what I have heard it is anything but. I only got a contractor to save me the hassle but only realised he knew very little about the work he was doing, and employed **** East European plumbers who were unqualified, after it was too late to back out.

By the time all works were over I held a retention of about 5% which I need to cover other problems (my extension roof, other electrics, decorating etc). That's why I'm worried now how much this will cost me to sort out. He threatened and abused me to pay in full but I have not, of coruse, and we have now parted ways. I have no intention of bringing him back!

...If I told you I paid £7,500 for labour only to remove old boiler/water tank/some pipes and install new boiler/cylinder/some pipes - what would yopu say?! (based in NW London).

He also charged me £2500 for 'boiler, cylinder etc'. i have repeatedly asked for a breakdown which of course he has not provided. Online the boiler costs £1000 and the cylinder £700. Is it possible the pipes etc could cost another £800 or he has he topped up the price here too?

 

[nervous123]

This needs to looked at in detail by a qualified installer with an unvented ticket to give an opinion.

Done a bit of research (not wanting to be bitten twice) - would a Gas Safe reg fellow be okay, or is it better if he is IPHE qualified? Thanks.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

you have been done big time !

can you pls send photos of the boiler and flue and gas pipe work pls

and the discharge pipe from the Cylinder

 

[Flanners]

only thing i can think off is that both motorised valves are wired to come on when c/h demand. Or the three port closest to the cylinder is wired for h/w and the second is manually open. oh and yeah,,very bad install. poor positioning of expansion vessel and prv.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

you need competent person (engineer) to sort it out but why dont you contact trade building control and take legal action !

 

[gasmarc]

i hate to say it but you have been royally screwed big time, This guy is a total wrong one

 

[nervous123]

you need competent person (engineer) to sort it out but why dont you contact trade building control and take legal action !

Do they have a website/number?

Should I bring in LABC instead/as well? Will i get in trouble for not having used a competent person - i would have thought that's the contractor's responsibility?

 

[gasmarc]

call these people on monday they are only concerned with gas safety but if he has used an unregistered engineer you have him bang to rights,Gas Safe Register | Ensure your gas engineer is registered with ...
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[nervous123]

More photos of Cylinder

More photos of Cylinder

 

[SafeGasInstall]

you are in trouble all ready as you have pay them over 7g ,

and is your house that is potential danger of collapse due to the wait of this unit and

common send pict boiler .will be very helpful to see what is the rest of the work like !

 

[nervous123]

and now some photos of the boiler

and now some photos of the boiler (bracing myself for the inevitable...)

 

[nervous123]

call these people on monday they are only concerned with gas safety but if he has used an unregistered engineer you have him bang to rights,Gas Safe Register

Boiler was installed by a GS reg engineer. Cylinder was not (although I had thought it wasn't a GS qualification , but a G3 qualification that was needed?) so I doubt GS would be interested..?

 

[gasmarc]

gsr are only interest in gas safety,but you need a ticket to install unvented cylinders, not being funny but I would get someone out to survey what has been done as it may not be a safe installation and I would avoid sleeping underneath it until its all been checked out ,good luck,this reminds me of a mate who called me and said he had arrived on a job where some poles had managed to blow apart a normal hot water cylinder by converting it to mains pressure

 

[nervous123]

gsr are only interest in gas safety,but you need a ticket to install unvented cylinders

I just read through Part G Building Regs:

​

3.40 The safety and performance of an unvented system is dependent on the choice of system and safety devices appropriate for the location and correct installation of the system. Building owners and occupiers should therefore take care to choose installers who have the necessary skills to carry out this work. These skills can be demonstrated for example, by registration with a competent person scheme for this type of work or by the holding of a current registered operative skills certification card for unvented hot water systems.

(3.41 goes on to say you need to notify BC who may check work is safe. 3.42 says if installer is on competent person scheme they can self-certify instead.)

Seems from above that per the BRegs, the worker doesn't have to have any qualifications - just the relevant skills? Bit odd...

 

[anz]

But if he doesn't have qualifications then the installation must be checked by Building Control. Who will issue a certificate if it passes.

In regards to the whole installation, I am shocked and would be ashamed to have my name against that.

And paying 10k, what were you thinking?

 

[PuraTherm]

I would like to say my deepest sympathies to you and your family for being subjected this poor workmanship. I have installed afew of the unvented systems and even the most difficult one to install was less than 6,000. To have this type of installers out there give us all a black eye.
I strongly suggest that if you can you shut down the whole thing down, drain off the cylinder (remember to shut off the power to the imersion and the boiler) and get this inspected before any more damage is done your home.

 

[oldplumber]

Hang fire guys, does anyone know if the installers were unqualified, you may well be terrifying the poor owner here and find the actual system is safe although it looks as if a two year old has been playing with his dads kit. We all agree the cost is exhorbitant, but lets all settle back a bit and ask, did the customer get several quotes/estimates first, if not whos to blame here. I for one would be very happy to work for that sort of money if people are willing and able to pay, but I would do a proper and tidy job whether or not I was being paid around £100 an hour. best advice now is to ask the trading standards in for their advice (local council is where to go ), and take it from there, and they can then do the chasing up if it is deemed neccessary

 

[nervous123]

So what's the best thing to do now?

Should I call Trading Standards or LABC? (If I call LABC do I risk getting in trouble for quality of job? Don't see why I should - I used a contractor trusting him to do everything to all standards/regulations. Distinctly remember telling him so at onset of job.)

 

[GrahamM]

The main thing is is to make sure there are no other underlying safety issues that may be worse than what can be viewed by your photos. Get hold of a Gas Safe Registered engineer who has his Unvented qualification to take a look and give his opinion ASAP.
Once it can be established how bad it is you can look at taking action and getting it rectified.
It is unfortunate you have been stung here, but put it down to experience and make sure you and your home are safe.

 

[shorticus]

As PuraTherm said I would also wish to convey my sympathies, you have clearly been taken advantage of.
The installation aside from looking like a dog’s dinner is potentially unsafe.
From what I can tell the mains cold feed has been looped back into the balanced cold outlet on the multivalve thereby bypassing the pressure reducing valve, the discharge pipe is plastic and the prv discharge pipe runs up hill, evidence enough that the installers didn’t know what they were doing.
Don’t worry about being in trouble, the duty of care lies with your contractor, as previously stated get it checked ASAP, gas safe, G3 qualified and a CIPHE member if you can, we follow a professional code of conduct.
All the best, let us know how you get on.
Shorty.

 

[oldplumber]

nice pickup shorti on the mains fed and multi valve, now u mention it that setup is looking positively interesting and needs inspecting closeup by a qualified installer asap, my natural desire to be fair to custard and installer is probably wrong on his occassion and someone needs taking in hand and slapped shortly thereafter. Use an approved contractor for an inspection and call in trading standards at thesame time so they can track down the installer, ring the localcouncil for advice here, then when all has been put right thebuildings control will be happy and a good installer will be able to self certify his work and have a buildings control ticket issued to the customer

 

[Gray0689]

That instalation is a total balls he has 2 mot valves on same line that's why you have to have heating on as it has to open heating valve to get to hot water valve
As stated cold feed is totally wrong prv is piped wrong pipes should be lagged 1m from cylinder but as in a roof space should all be lagged with 22mm by 19mm armaflex or same propertys
Not a shut of valve in sight
(you better hope it does not freeze)
Your discharge pipework I'd like to see where it comes out of house?
I would be thinking it's wrong size? Sorry but you got ripped off big time
And as stated I'd be looking to see if your joists are up to taking that kind of weight
Unfortanatly to get an unvented ticket a trained monkey can do this in a day it's simple
And ciph means nothing any plumber Can join this organisation
As you got your boiler instaled by a gsr installer if there a problem there you got some come back if problem

But I'd get that cylinder looked at it's probably not unsafe but there is a lot of problems needs sorted to make sure there nothing we all missed from limited pictures

Best if luck hope you get it sorted

 

[nervous123]

Unfortanatly to get an unvented ticket a trained monkey can do this in a day it's simple
And ciph means nothing any plumber Can join this organisation

But I'd get that cylinder looked at

Best if luck hope you get it sorted

Thanks for the review of problems - much appreciated.

If, according to you, the unvented ticket and CIPH are not that meaningful, who should I go to for an opinion?

 

[Gray0689]

Thanks for the review of problems - much appreciated.

If, according to you, the unvented ticket and CIPH are not that meaningful, who should I go to for an opinion?

Unvented qualification is mandatory to work on these cylinders just easy to get
Ask on here if anyone near you to have a look at this cylinder there is a lot of good experienced plumbers on this site if no one in your area maybe someone can point you in right direction
Hope you get it sorted mate

 

[nervous123]

Ask on here if anyone near you to have a look at this cylinder there is a lot of good experienced plumbers on this site if no one in your area maybe someone can point you in right direction
Hope you get it sorted mate

With that in mind... can anyone recommend a good reliable fellow near NW London? Thanks...

 

[Kimou]

Incredible. I'd get some support under that ply, sharpish. If that base collapses; you could be in big trouble. 1 litre= 1 kilo, so if you got a 200L vessel, well, do the maths. It doesn't look like it fits on both the 4"x2" batons.

It wasn't Wagbo who installed it...was it?

 

[washer]

Unusual to support the expansion vessel with copper pipe.

 

[shorticus]

Just had a closer look at your pics, it would appear that there is a pipe teeing in-between the two motorised valves, assuming this is the flow then I would suggest that the circulation issue maybe an electrical/controls one. Other than the integral IV in the multifunction valve I’m not sure there’s a need for extra isolation valves. As far as the weight is concerned as this is a plumbing forum I doubt anyone here (and I might be wrong!) has a grasp of Young’s Modulus nor be capable of calculating bending moments from photographs, I would seek the advice of a Structural Engineer...something your contractor should have done.
G3 is easy but then again so is plumbing; it never ceases to amaze me how wrong some people get it, perhaps that’s why there is a slow but steady advance for better regulation.
CIPHE is not perfect but in the absence of compulsory licensing it at least can demonstrate an individual’s good intent on raising standards in our craft and developing their own continued education. There's no-one that has all the answers. As I previously said, look for CIPHE registration ‘in conjunction’ with the correct qualifications and Gas Safe registration, if you can find someone with CORGI plumbing as well then I’m sure you’ll not go too far wrong.
Best of British, be sure to let us know how it pans out.

 

[Avatar]

Its so bad I would think about taking the guy to court for the lot:

As a customer legally you have to get a job of REASONABLE quailty for a REASONABLE price - niether of which seem in evidence!

10k its cost, find out how much I would cost to make safe and rectify, then get a court judgement against the guy for that amount.

It sounds hardcore, but you have been royally stiffed - I would be charging you about 4-5k all in to do that job properly!

Good luck!

 

[gasmarc]

we all make mistakes sometimes and i think you just need to resign yourself to the fact that its going to cost you another grand max to sort out

 

[oilman]

I agree with lots of the points already mentioned , the expansion vessel should not be mounted with the air valve at the top
THE LINK FROM INLET TO BALANCED OUTPUT AT BASE OF PRESSURE REDUCING VALVE BYPASSES THE FUNCTION OF THE VALVE very dangerous. If you are lucky your mains pressure may be below 3 bar.
An unvented cylinder is controlled by law and must be notified by a qualified installer or inspected by Building Control if installed by anyone else.
The safety discharge pipe must be of material that can stand boiling water and of a size related to the length of it's path. Mostly this would be copper or steel pipework definitely not plastic water connectors.

 

[washer]

What I dont get, is why would you even consider putting that link in on the pressure reducing valve, and even more worrying how many more installations have got it.

 

[nervous123]

Thanks everyone for all the helpful comments and sympathy. In a way, I guess it's actually 'lucky' that i had the problem with the CH and HW controls, as it seems to have highlighted far more fundamental issues...

The reason I didn't shop around for more prices is that I got 3 quotes for all the renovations (also incl electrics, removing chimneys etc) from 3 separate contractors. This guy was (at least initially) the cheapest so I took him. He must have been either lying, or deflated the other prices to compensate.

One of my biggest gripes about the whole business is that I specially took a contractor rather than get the individual workers (electrician, plumber etc) despite the inevitable markup, to save me the hassle (I work 9-5.30) - and all I've got is grief and hassle. Ironic isn't it.

Anyway, hopefully (depending on his workload) I've got someone coming in this week to inspect. He's IPHE registered - will see what he says.

PS> At first I was inclined to let sleeping dogs lie, however I'm now veering more and more to suing the contractor, especially as everyone says 10k is too much even for a properly done job.

 

[gasmarc]

yes I would do it if he is still in business , hopefully any structural work has been passed, good luck

 

[SafeGasInstall]

pls keep us update .

good luck !

 

[oilman]

I guess the installer saw the input to the pressure reducing valve and then the balanced cold for showers etc and thought "that's the same thing" and connected the ports Thereby proving he is neither competent nor qualified

 

[Avatar]

One of my biggest gripes about the whole business is that I specially took a contractor rather than get the individual workers (electrician, plumber etc) despite the inevitable markup, to save me the hassle (I work 9-5.30) - and all I've got is grief and hassle. Ironic isn't it.

I am always preaching to customers to do this - if you get a builder in as a main contractor he will just bring in the other trades anyway, and charge 50% extra ontop of their labour fees, or even worse do the plumbing, electrical or gas work himself, without the proper qualifications!

Man, a lot of my work (50%) is putting right work that builders have done - it is absolutely shocking!


As to the legal route - I am soory but if you pay 10 grand for a car, and it doesn't drive and has loads of faults you take it back for a refund!

People dont think that they are in their rights to sue a builder, but they are. You can even get baliffs up at em, when the judgement has been passed!

 

[shorticus]

PS> At first I was inclined to let sleeping dogs lie, however I'm now veering more and more to suing the contractor, especially as everyone says 10k is too much even for a properly done job.

Personaly speaking if someone owes me money I'll not let them of the hook, however I'd advise getting some legal advice. I'm not sure whether you have to give your contractor the opportunity to put things right even though there's clear demonstration of incompetance. Perhaps a quick phone call to trading standards or citizens advice might be prudent

 

[Avatar]

if i remember rightly you have to write a 'without predudice' letter giving them 14 days at least to rembuse you, or in this case put the work right . . .

Legal adivce would be recommended, as you cannot use the small claims court for 10k!

Good luck.

 

[gasmarc]

avatar is correct ,you can get this clown to pay to rectify all this bad work but that is only if he has money,