Illegal installation

[tamz]

As Oldplumber said, an unvented cylinder comes as a package of components and all components must be used in order to comply with the manufacturers instructions.
This has not been done so even if it the existing valve has been wired through the thermal cut off and will function as intended, technically is wrong, but hardly life threatening.

Any unvented cylinder must have 3 methods of temperature limit and safety control which operate in sequence as the temperature rises.
1. Thermostat
2. Non resetting thermal cut out
3. Temperature relief valve

This is in addition to any boiler safety devices which will also limit temperature.

The last failsafe is the temperature relief valve

As to where your discharge pipe is terminated.

From BS6700
"The discharge from any temperature relief valve or combined temperature and pressure relief valve or any expansion relief valve shall be located so that it is safe (i.e. it cannot create a hazard to persons in or around the building or cause damage to electrical components and wiring), and provides a visible warning of fault conditions"

Now you can see where the confusion may arise as to where it can be safely terminated with the key word being safe. There is no absolute clear guidance on this in the BS or Building Regs Part G.

On what premise did you get the two G3 qualified guys out? Generally we are not charity orginisations and if you asked them to have a look to estimate on the cost of doing work they will not offer a full free diagnosis on new done work so you can get someone else in to put it right. (well i certainly wouldn't)
If you were paying them then checks that needed to be made any work that may have needed doing would be done.

Gas safe have nothing to do with cylinders. Contact building control.
You can download the instructions easily enough from the manufacturer website.

I sympathise somewhat with your situation but ultimately, it is you, the customer, who has the final responsibility to ensure anyone carrying out work has the correct qualifications and experience.
Unfortunately very few do and base their decision on cost alone.

 

[Avatar]

I agree with tamz!

 

[Gromit]

Thanks for the pointers Tamz. I'm on the CIPHE website (cheers Toddy) at the moment to find someone suitably qualified to work on unvented cylinders.

I hired the engineers on the basis that they were to look over my system. Both were paid. I can only hope that both were genuinly qualified and having looked into it I now have my doubts.

I'm not looking for sympathy from anyone, just some concise advice, something which you have done, so thank you.
From the end user's point of view it is a mine field. I've tried talking to the local building control and spoken to someone who vaguely told me to "procure a tradesman qualified to G3 level". What she couldn't do was tell me how to go about this, how to check whether the individual was genuine, and what ID to ask for.

On arriving at my house, and once I asked, one of the engineers took out his Corgi card and showed me a symbol - a blue square with a water drop, telling me that this is the symbol for unvented. I don't know if this is true or not. I don't know if there is a central database for me to check; the kind of thing that Gas Safe has. I certainly can't find one. The other engineer told me that he didn't carry his ID around with him and promised to send me a headed paper receipt having taken £60 in cash off me. I'm still waiting.

There was a thread on this forum a while ago by Plumbstar Tom - "Illegal Gas Fitter Caught". Chap nicked for fitted several boilers illegally and dangerously and with a fake card. And what did this potential killer get? A £500 fine. Wonderful. So is it any wonder that when I called around the local paper adverts of people advertising themselves as "Heating Engineers" and asked them as to their qualification, I received a variety of responses....."my ticket's lapsed but I'm ok", "yes I'm Corgi" (I thought it was Gas Safe these days and anyway I didn't think Gas Safe covers unvented cylinders) and the prize had to go to the man who swore on his boy's eyesight that he knew what he was doing and that he'd done it since 1998. How reassuring.

Think about it from the point of view of Mr White Collar who doesn't on a daily basis deal with people who lie their way through their work. I used to be nice and naive and now I've been shafted I don't trust anyone unless they can prove otherwise. Anyway I'm off to take my twins for their injections now. But first I'm going to call the NHS and check that the nurse really is registered with the NMC and that her registration hasn't lapsed, because ultimately if it all goes horribly wrong I'll only have myself to blame.

 

[fuzzy]

like i said before, it depends how its wired, i could email you a copy of the wiring needed ofr an unvented, tried to copy it here but it wont upload? its my own work in pdf

 

[Gromit]

Thanks Mr Fuzzy. Downloaded it from manufacturer's site. http://www.rmcylinders.com/files/stelinstall.pdf

 

[fuzzy]

like the drawing shows it doesnt need an additional 2 port for an s plan, but does need a safety cut out wired in, good luck

 

[Gromit]

Thanks Fuzzy. I'm getting in a proper person to check it out. Hopefully something easy to test for. I have a sparks on site tomorrow so he may even be able to do it.

 

[shorticus]

Think I may have a source for the confusion over the discharge pipe. Tamz is of course absolutely correct about G3 and the British Standards, what I have found in addition though is within BPEC's (British Plumbing Employers Council (Training) Ltd) unvented training manual where it states that a high level termination with a turnback may now be acceptable with prior approval from the Building Control officer, it doesn't state where this guidance is from though...

 

[Gromit]

Thanks for this. Thinking logically I would imagine it may be acceptable at a level high enough so that by the time the fluid hits the ground it will have cooled down sufficiently to do no damage, and probably away from an area where people walk.

 

[shorticus]

perhaps a (cold) water discharge test may prove prudent just to ensure that it safely runs down the wall and doesn't dangerously splash out, you could do this yourselves by pouring water into the black plastic tundish with a funnel while someone watches the discharge point outside.

 

[Gromit]

Thanks back would that replicate the pressue the water would come out in a real situation?

 

[shorticus]

Thanks back would that replicate the pressue the water would come out in a real situation?

I think it will give you a good idea especially if you pour a good amount down there, your tundish is an air break so you’ll not get discharge at pressure so to speak anyway, from that point onwards it will be quantity and gravity that will determine how it behaves at the outlet

 

[tamz]

Think I may have a source for the confusion over the discharge pipe. Tamz is of course absolutely correct about G3 and the British Standards, what I have found in addition though is within BPEC's (British Plumbing Employers Council (Training) Ltd) unvented training manual where it states that a high level termination with a turnback may now be acceptable with prior approval from the Building Control officer, it doesn't state where this guidance is from though...

It comes from the word safe and by using something which is not so common anymore.

 

[Gromit]

Thank you chaps. If only everyone in this industry had a safety first attitude. Thanks for your help.

 

[Toddyplumb]

Tamz , that wouldnt be 2 words stating with C and S

 

[tamz]

Tamz , that wouldnt be 2 words stating with C and S

Sadly lacking in most areas of life nowadays

 

[AceBeatnik]

not sure its an issue for gas safe is it? that's why you have to be qualified to install unvented systems. I would say it was unsafe to not have the heat cut out valve on it. although most people use them as part of the s plan any way, to have nothing on it is dangerous. what if the t&p valve failed? what did attract my attention was the state of the pipework!! its horrendous!
Phone another plumber up and make sure they have the unvented cylinder ticket.

 

[the baker]

Just bear in mind that Tradesmen are always disagreeing with each other, that’s the nature of the self employed. (an, they all want to be the Boss, emoticon)

Re the two port valve, there are plenty of people, who say unvented installation should always have it fitted,

And,

There are those who point out that the purpose of the two port valve, you appear to be referring to, is to prevent the boiler raising the temperature of the cylinder beyond approximately 100 degrees centigrade.

Now dependant on the make and model of the boiler, it may have a device(a fuse) within it that melts at about 95 degrees centigrade and completely shuts down the boiler, therefore some installations don’t need a two port valve to comply with the G3 regs.

Have you taken the trouble to explain your concerns to the original installer and the Gas Safe bloke?

Tim

 

[PlumbingSucks]

just download mi,s for the cylinder and check the wiring to 2 port valve is as per mi's

 

[Gromit]

OK - update. Had qualified unvented chap to my house - nice chap. As per most of the guys here told me that ok to use existing 2 port valve located next to boiler and omit fitting 2 port valve next to cylinder.

So he's happy with the layout even though it transpires that the installer wasn't qualified for unvented. The only problem is that he said that he can see that there is a wire to the cylinder stat which was in fact originally connected to the old cylinder, but what he can't say for 100% sure is whether the signal is going to the stat and that now I need an electrician to test it. Problem is that I've phoned a couple of electricians and they don't understand what they should be testing for.

Am I right in saying that all electrician needs to do is test that when controller is set to demand hot water that signal is sent to stat?

 

[Toddyplumb]

Test that the thermal overload is in series with the cylinder stat. Check that the cylinder stat does indeed close the 2 port valve.

 

[Gromit]

Thanks Toddy. I shall pass these words of wisodom on to sparks until I find one who knows what I'm talking about. Is there such a thing as a central heating electrician?

 

[mkflow]

i believe if y plan system on unvented cylinder you must only use a 3pv as one port is always open. you do need an extra 2 PV which is wired into the safetly cut out

 

[Gromit]

It's an S plan.

 

[Toddyplumb]

Its an interesting one this, as the electricians are not registered to install unvented. It is the heating engineer who signs it off , if he does not know how it works we r scuppered !
I do all my own electrics

 

[CIPHE]

This is why we launched the Register of Heating Professionals (RHP). there are too many getting onto GSR who do not know the first thing about the wet side. Unfortunately you do not need to be anything other than safe with gas for GSR. The RHP means you have the fuel qualifications (Gas Safe for Gas) or solid fuel or oil PLUS water qualifications (inc Water Regs) to do the wet bid well and safely. Look at the complaints about Warm Front the majority are about the poor installation of the wet side.

CIPHE CEO

 

[metaldust9]

CIPHE i get your point, but lot of bad wet installs are by people who have no come backs who work for big companys and just get told, dont do it again,and it doesnt bother them cos its not there money there loosing if your like me sole trader you carnt afford to make silly mistakes cos it come out of my pocket i carnt flood a house i have to check everything double times over before i walk away i work with 2 of my mates who are time served am not time served but am gas safe reg i started off working with a builder then went on tho the merchants,travis perkins /city plumbing then with my mate for a yr then on my own for the last 3 and a half i dont have any plumbing quals just been round the trade a long time have my acs etc so were do i stand with your RHP proberly wouldnt get on to it without paying a fortune out again as ave just paid out £8000 for the gas and took me a few yrs to me its all about money

 

[smillsey]

Why doesnt the unvented bloke know how to test where the wires are going. As for electrcians, they wont want to do it as they have never worked on the kit which means they would be there for 2 hours reading the diagram and know you wont want to pay them.

We have no chance if these people calling themselves heating engineers dont know how to use a multimeter properly. Or properly understand wiring diagrams. We need to move with the times, heating has been electrickery controlled for years now.

 

[stevetheplumber]

personally i always wire the permenant live to the boiler through the restable stat this means if the cylinder overheats theres no chance of anything working as there are unlikly scenarios where a 2 port can fail and still provide power to heat source
also with niether heat or water the problem gets dealt with imeddiatly

 

[smillsey]

what about pump overun steve, true the burners will be off but if the water flow stops in the 50 degree heat exchanger?

 

[tamz]

50[FONT=&quot]º is not much of a problem but 80[/FONT][FONT=&quot]º may be.
[/FONT]

 

[smillsey]

oops, lol. 500 degree i meant. As in when water stops the actual metal of the heat exchanger in the flame is very hot.

 

[mikegas]

Just reading through the bpec unvented book as im sitting the course soon and ive noticed it says 'if the heat source is a boiler with a high limit thermostat this may, if suitable, be used utilised as the energy cut out'. So does this remove the need to use the two port? or am i interpreting this wrong.

 

[CIPHE]

Thanks Metaldust9. I know that more and more we are being asked how to deal with the people who move on before their bad work catches up with them. GSR can only act if the gas element of the job is not done to standard. Forget about the water side or the guy who drags the lady down to the cashpoint to force her to pay for a powerflush that he never did (true story).
I know many people think we are not acting for the industry because a lot of the work we are trying to do takes time to show an effect, but we are making progress. Water companies, energy companies, merchants and manufacturers are all becoming increasingly concerned about the lack of skill that is out there and we are trying to help to show that there are a lot more good plumbers and heating engineers than the ones that are getting a regular airing on Rogue Traders, Cowboy Trap and House of Horrors. We all know that the good guys do not get the coverage they deserve and as much as I wish I could it is impossible to afford TV adverst and full page magazine promotions. But when we do get on the telly like over Christmas the public come to us for help and advice(2000 in the two weeks over Christmas). What I need are the good guys to send them to. What does that cost; less than half a pint of beer a week and people still say its too expensive.

CIPHE CEO