Illegal installation

[Gromit]

Thank you Toddy and Graham. I can't confirm that zone valve at the boiler is linked to the cylinder and I have no confidence in the people who fitted it. Who knows if they altered the wiring frm the ordinary S plan. I don't know how to test it and as it transpires that they did not hold a qualification for cylinders I cannot rely on them.

So the question is how can I be sure that it is connected? And what can I do about the people who fitted the cylinder? If these people have put my family in any potential danger I will make it my career to go after them. But do trading standards or whomever may go after them have any teeth? I guess that Gas Safe won't want to know as it's not their concern. My immediate issue is having the connection tested.

So far as hot discharge is concerned, Graham you make a good point. It'd be like pouring a kettle out of a first floor window and hoping it cools down by the time it hits somone standing below.

 

[Toddyplumb]

Phone building control in the morning and tell them you are going to report the installation to the HSE

 

[oldplumber]

If the cylinder company supply a zone valve, you have to use it as its part of the whole safety set up to comply with regs and you can only use the parts supplied by the manufacturer., seems daft but thats the rules, simpler to slot it in where one of the old ones went to save hassle, and be correct. As far as discharge goes the rules show how to position them and this will be in the manufacturers instructions as well, simples, read the instructions and ensure they are followed, no grey areas here at all.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

if they left the instructions that is.

 

[Gromit]

funny you should mention it - they didn't leave the instructions. Perhaps because I would then have asked them to fill in the section at the back about commissioing and as they knew that they didn't have the right ticket they'd be found out. I hate cowboys - all I want is an honest days work for an honest wage.

 

[tamz]

As Oldplumber said, an unvented cylinder comes as a package of components and all components must be used in order to comply with the manufacturers instructions.
This has not been done so even if it the existing valve has been wired through the thermal cut off and will function as intended, technically is wrong, but hardly life threatening.

Any unvented cylinder must have 3 methods of temperature limit and safety control which operate in sequence as the temperature rises.
1. Thermostat
2. Non resetting thermal cut out
3. Temperature relief valve

This is in addition to any boiler safety devices which will also limit temperature.

The last failsafe is the temperature relief valve

As to where your discharge pipe is terminated.

From BS6700
"The discharge from any temperature relief valve or combined temperature and pressure relief valve or any expansion relief valve shall be located so that it is safe (i.e. it cannot create a hazard to persons in or around the building or cause damage to electrical components and wiring), and provides a visible warning of fault conditions"

Now you can see where the confusion may arise as to where it can be safely terminated with the key word being safe. There is no absolute clear guidance on this in the BS or Building Regs Part G.

On what premise did you get the two G3 qualified guys out? Generally we are not charity orginisations and if you asked them to have a look to estimate on the cost of doing work they will not offer a full free diagnosis on new done work so you can get someone else in to put it right. (well i certainly wouldn't)
If you were paying them then checks that needed to be made any work that may have needed doing would be done.

Gas safe have nothing to do with cylinders. Contact building control.
You can download the instructions easily enough from the manufacturer website.

I sympathise somewhat with your situation but ultimately, it is you, the customer, who has the final responsibility to ensure anyone carrying out work has the correct qualifications and experience.
Unfortunately very few do and base their decision on cost alone.

 

[Avatar]

I agree with tamz!

 

[Gromit]

Thanks for the pointers Tamz. I'm on the CIPHE website (cheers Toddy) at the moment to find someone suitably qualified to work on unvented cylinders.

I hired the engineers on the basis that they were to look over my system. Both were paid. I can only hope that both were genuinly qualified and having looked into it I now have my doubts.

I'm not looking for sympathy from anyone, just some concise advice, something which you have done, so thank you.
From the end user's point of view it is a mine field. I've tried talking to the local building control and spoken to someone who vaguely told me to "procure a tradesman qualified to G3 level". What she couldn't do was tell me how to go about this, how to check whether the individual was genuine, and what ID to ask for.

On arriving at my house, and once I asked, one of the engineers took out his Corgi card and showed me a symbol - a blue square with a water drop, telling me that this is the symbol for unvented. I don't know if this is true or not. I don't know if there is a central database for me to check; the kind of thing that Gas Safe has. I certainly can't find one. The other engineer told me that he didn't carry his ID around with him and promised to send me a headed paper receipt having taken £60 in cash off me. I'm still waiting.

There was a thread on this forum a while ago by Plumbstar Tom - "Illegal Gas Fitter Caught". Chap nicked for fitted several boilers illegally and dangerously and with a fake card. And what did this potential killer get? A £500 fine. Wonderful. So is it any wonder that when I called around the local paper adverts of people advertising themselves as "Heating Engineers" and asked them as to their qualification, I received a variety of responses....."my ticket's lapsed but I'm ok", "yes I'm Corgi" (I thought it was Gas Safe these days and anyway I didn't think Gas Safe covers unvented cylinders) and the prize had to go to the man who swore on his boy's eyesight that he knew what he was doing and that he'd done it since 1998. How reassuring.

Think about it from the point of view of Mr White Collar who doesn't on a daily basis deal with people who lie their way through their work. I used to be nice and naive and now I've been shafted I don't trust anyone unless they can prove otherwise. Anyway I'm off to take my twins for their injections now. But first I'm going to call the NHS and check that the nurse really is registered with the NMC and that her registration hasn't lapsed, because ultimately if it all goes horribly wrong I'll only have myself to blame.

 

[fuzzy]

like i said before, it depends how its wired, i could email you a copy of the wiring needed ofr an unvented, tried to copy it here but it wont upload? its my own work in pdf

 

[Gromit]

Thanks Mr Fuzzy. Downloaded it from manufacturer's site. http://www.rmcylinders.com/files/stelinstall.pdf