Illegal installation

[Gromit]

So here I am again. Illegal installation of boiler and indirect cylinder. Boiler signed off by Gas Safe mate of illegal installer, and yes the system was fired up prior to the signing off.

I've had two engineers look at the system, but both don't agree on their findings.

On the cylinder (photo attached), I noticed that a Honeywell two port valve ( I think it's called) was not fitted. Engineer one says it is is a high temperature cut out and should be fitted and engineer two says it's not necessary and that I have two motorized valves at the boiler which will suffice.

It's hard for me the householder. I feel like a pillock, I've been naive and I'm totally out of my depth. I've employed people in good faith and now I've learnt my lesson to believe nothing unless I see ID in advance. So I've attached two photos of the cylinder, one showing the unused valve.

The other question is with the discharge pipe that comes off the cylinder. It points out of the wall on the first floor and is then bent back to point towards the wall. Engineer one says it's ok, engineer two says it should ideally be run down to the ground, but that it's a grey area.

This is frightening for me - all I want is to get the system safe and then find out how I can stop these guys doing anything like this again.

 

[Toddyplumb]

Simple really , you report the guy who signed it off to Gas Safe. They will come and inspect.

 

[Gromit]

Will do. Is the cylinder a Gas Safe issue? What do you think about this two port valve?

 

[fuzzy]

View attachment 1539View attachment 1538So here I am again. Illegal installation of boiler and indirect cylinder. Boiler signed off by Gas Safe mate of illegal installer, and yes the system was fired up prior to the signing off.

I've had two engineers look at the system, but both don't agree on their findings.

On the cylinder (photo attached), I noticed that a Honeywell two port valve ( I think it's called) was not fitted. Engineer one says it is is a high temperature cut out and should be fitted and engineer two says it's not necessary and that I have two motorized valves at the boiler which will suffice.

It's hard for me the householder. I feel like a pillock, I've been naive and I'm totally out of my depth. I've employed people in good faith and now I've learnt my lesson to believe nothing unless I see ID in advance. So I've attached two photos of the cylinder, one showing the unused valve.

The other question is with the discharge pipe that comes off the cylinder. It points out of the wall on the first floor and is then bent back to point towards the wall. Engineer one says it's ok, engineer two says it should ideally be run down to the ground, but that it's a grey area.

This is frightening for me - all I want is to get the system safe and then find out how I can stop these guys doing anything like this again.

he is right imo. you dont need to double up the two port valves but it must be linked to the safety cut out so depends how its been wired. if its a three port y plan then yes it needs secondry two port

 

[fuzzy]

Will do. Is the cylinder a Gas Safe issue? What do you think about this two port valve?

do you have an s or y plan system, has it been linked into the safety cut out?

 

[Gromit]

Thanks Fuzzy. This is the problem - out of my depth. I don't know what an S or Y plan system is. Tough as I'm not in this field and have two experts who disagree, so it's hard for me a layman to judge. This used to be a gravity system - the installer kept the old motorized valves and installed Gloworm system boiler and unvented indirect cylinder.

 

[Toddyplumb]

If it has been signed off by the gas safe guy he has signed to say it complies with the regs.
As to the 2 port valve its as Fuzzy says . Do you have 2 motorized valves at your boiler or 1 with 3 pipes connected.
I would still phone gas safe !

 

[Gromit]

I have 2 motorized valves Toddy. They were originally there from the old boiler from when I had a gravity system. I'm suspicious as Mr Gas Safe is a mate of the illegal who installed it. Since then two qualified guys disagree - one says I still need the 2 port valve by the cylinder as a back up safety device and the other says rubbish.

Also not sure if Gas Safe covers the cylinder - and I bet installer didn't have the ticket for the cylinder either.

 

[charliejamesuk]

Unvented Cylinder installs need to adhere to G3 Building Regs and must be installed by someone with the relevant ticket. Think you can get your local building control officer to check the cylinder install.
Someone else on here will be able to confirm

 

[Gromit]

I thought as much. The thing is I can go and complain. Unless Gas Safe / local authority / Trading Standards have teeth and do something I'll just be left with a flawed installation and no action against the rogue trader. For now I'm trying to gauge whether I have a problem and I've got two qualified tradesmen disagreeing so not sure whether I do need the 2 port valve by the cylinder in adddion to the valves by the boiler.

 

[marsaday]

i am not a plumber, but it sounds like you dont really have a problem. one guy says all ok, the other says not needed. it has been signed off, so you have some come back. not sure what your problem is.

as for the overflow. You direct the over flow in towards the building so hot water doesnt spurt out on to someones head. Or you can run a length down to the ground to discharge at foot level. both are ok, and not really worth worrying about. Our boiler overflow points inwards to the wall. no probs here.

 

[Gromit]

Thanks but one guy says all ok and one guy says illegal and dangerous. Both qualified and ones right and ones wrong.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

i would be inclined to get a third opinion and go with the majority.

 

[metaldust9]

i would proberly read up on how it should be fitted check it against yours then go from there

 

[Toddyplumb]

As marsaday says he is not a plumber. If it is the tpr valve it is highly unlikely that turning it against the wall will be acceptable, it is an unvented cylinder.
The 2 port valve will only be OK if its wired to the thermal cut out.
The bottom line is you are not happy with what a Gas Safe installer has done , you complain to gas safe !

 

[northstar]

What area do you live in ? see if one of the local guys on here can come and have a look for you.

 

[quality]

What about getting the guy who signed it off back so he can put it right

 

[Gromit]

Cheers Toddy. The two port valve wasn't fitted to the cylinder. Installer said as there are existing motorised valves next to the boiler which were already fitted to the old boiler when I had a gravity system that he shouldn't fit the two port to the cylinder. I could get gas safe guy back but he is not qualified for cylinders. So I therefore got two guys with the ticket for cylinders and guess what they fundamentally disagree. And here lies my problem.

 

[Toddyplumb]

The plot thickens. Building control then for their advice

 

[plumberdarren]

To install an unvented cylinder you need an unvented certificate , if that installer has got the certificate and cannot self certify then building control need to come and inspect the installation (different councils are different but about £200). If your unsure you should do that its not a gas safe issue.

 

[Gromit]

I did. And they said "talk to person with qualification to G3 level". And I have. Two of them. Anyone got a gun and a single bullet? Toddy are you saying that existing motorized valves are ok so long as the wiring to the cylinder is tied into these? And even if it is, what's to stop me having the two port valve supplied with the cylinder also wired in - kind of belt and braces. Or is it technically not possible to have two lots of valves wired in?

 

[quality]

Why is the 2 port valve lying on the floor not connected to any pipe work ?

 

[ecowarm]

View attachment 1539View attachment 1538So here I am again. Illegal installation of boiler and indirect cylinder. Boiler signed off by Gas Safe mate of illegal installer, and yes the system was fired up prior to the signing off.

I've had two engineers look at the system, but both don't agree on their findings.

On the cylinder (photo attached), I noticed that a Honeywell two port valve ( I think it's called) was not fitted. Engineer one says it is is a high temperature cut out and should be fitted and engineer two says it's not necessary and that I have two motorized valves at the boiler which will suffice.

It's hard for me the householder. I feel like a pillock, I've been naive and I'm totally out of my depth. I've employed people in good faith and now I've learnt my lesson to believe nothing unless I see ID in advance. So I've attached two photos of the cylinder, one showing the unused valve.

The other question is with the discharge pipe that comes off the cylinder. It points out of the wall on the first floor and is then bent back to point towards the wall. Engineer one says it's ok, engineer two says it should ideally be run down to the ground, but that it's a grey area.
Its not a grey area,
Low level the discharge pipe should run to a drain gully and be lagged if on the outside of the house but can also terminate 100mm from ground if safely away from children


High level discharge can;

Discharges at high level; e.g. in to metal hopper and metal down pipe with the end of the discharge
pipe clearly visible (tundish visible or not) or onto a roof capable of withstanding high temperature
discharges of water and 3m from any plastic guttering systems that would collect such discharges​

(tundish visible).

This is frightening for me - all I want is to get the system safe and then find out how I can stop these guys doing anything like this again.

Hope this helps Eco

 

[Gromit]

Hi Quality. The installer said that the two port valve has not been connected because there are 2 x motorised valves next to the boiler which negate the use of the two port valve next to the cylinder. From what I understand from Toddy on this site, it may well be the case that the existing motorised valves next to the boiler do indeed negate the need to connect the two port valve next to the cylinder so long as they are wired in.

To further compound my confusion I have had two seperate engineers with the ticket for unnvented cylinders one of which says I have to have the valve and the other says no I don't as I already have an S plan system with 2 x motorised valves. This is my problem. Who to believe.

 

[washer]

If you have an s plan system, with a zone valve for the hot water, you do not need the zone valve which has been delivered with the cylinder, just keep it for a spare for when one of your other ones fail.

 

[Toddyplumb]

So your building control are like ours , they have not got a clue but rely on a piece of paper from an installer.
If your HW zone valve has been wired to the thermal cut out , correctly, there is no need for the spare zone valve. Its already belt and braces.
Did the guys you had check it test it , or look at the wiring or did they just look to see the zone valves were physically there

 

[Gromit]

Washer - you are a gentleman. Thank you. Just been looking at a video of an unvented cylinder exploding. I've got 14 month old twins sleeping next door to the airing cupboard. Is there any harm in the valve being fitted in addition to the existing valve? And Toddy on here seemed to be suggesting that the existing zone valve would only work if it had been wired in to the cylinder. What's the score?

 

[Gromit]

Cheers Toddy. It really is a disgrace. I got the impression that the building control guy had read a few books and had no practical experience. I am sure that the installer just looked at the zone valves and said ok. The question is, how to get someone with an in depth understanding of unvented cylinders to check it out - effectvely test that the wiring is correct. Are you anywhere near Elstree Hertfordshire? Few people I spoke to including building control seemed to understand what I was asking - even on this site. I guess it's a fairly specialist subject and I now realise that it has its own qualification and the guys who installed the cylinder have yet to show me any proof that they are qualified.

 

[Toddyplumb]

If the zone valve for your hot water has been connected to the non self resetting thermal cut out correctly you do not need an extra one.
If the wiring was not altered from an ordiary S plan its no good !
If they have no proof report it to building control as soon as possible as they should have been notified before the install
If you are unsure turn it all off, you have seen the video

 

[GrahamM]

The zone valve at the unvented cylinder is not a normal run of the mill boiler control. It is tied into the high limit stat of the cylinder and will shut down the heating supply if temp reaches 80°C. It is an important safety control and MUST operate in this way. If you can confirm that the DHW zone valve at the boiler is linked to the cylinder high limit stat then OK. If not you have a very important safety control missing on what is potentially a bomb.
Look at your discharge pipe termination. Do you think someone standing under it would be ok if steaming hot water was to rain down on them? Would the discharge have cooled enough before it hits them? If not then this needs to be addressed.

 

[Gromit]

Thank you Toddy and Graham. I can't confirm that zone valve at the boiler is linked to the cylinder and I have no confidence in the people who fitted it. Who knows if they altered the wiring frm the ordinary S plan. I don't know how to test it and as it transpires that they did not hold a qualification for cylinders I cannot rely on them.

So the question is how can I be sure that it is connected? And what can I do about the people who fitted the cylinder? If these people have put my family in any potential danger I will make it my career to go after them. But do trading standards or whomever may go after them have any teeth? I guess that Gas Safe won't want to know as it's not their concern. My immediate issue is having the connection tested.

So far as hot discharge is concerned, Graham you make a good point. It'd be like pouring a kettle out of a first floor window and hoping it cools down by the time it hits somone standing below.

 

[Toddyplumb]

Phone building control in the morning and tell them you are going to report the installation to the HSE

 

[oldplumber]

If the cylinder company supply a zone valve, you have to use it as its part of the whole safety set up to comply with regs and you can only use the parts supplied by the manufacturer., seems daft but thats the rules, simpler to slot it in where one of the old ones went to save hassle, and be correct. As far as discharge goes the rules show how to position them and this will be in the manufacturers instructions as well, simples, read the instructions and ensure they are followed, no grey areas here at all.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

if they left the instructions that is.

 

[Gromit]

funny you should mention it - they didn't leave the instructions. Perhaps because I would then have asked them to fill in the section at the back about commissioing and as they knew that they didn't have the right ticket they'd be found out. I hate cowboys - all I want is an honest days work for an honest wage.

 

[tamz]

As Oldplumber said, an unvented cylinder comes as a package of components and all components must be used in order to comply with the manufacturers instructions.
This has not been done so even if it the existing valve has been wired through the thermal cut off and will function as intended, technically is wrong, but hardly life threatening.

Any unvented cylinder must have 3 methods of temperature limit and safety control which operate in sequence as the temperature rises.
1. Thermostat
2. Non resetting thermal cut out
3. Temperature relief valve

This is in addition to any boiler safety devices which will also limit temperature.

The last failsafe is the temperature relief valve

As to where your discharge pipe is terminated.

From BS6700
"The discharge from any temperature relief valve or combined temperature and pressure relief valve or any expansion relief valve shall be located so that it is safe (i.e. it cannot create a hazard to persons in or around the building or cause damage to electrical components and wiring), and provides a visible warning of fault conditions"

Now you can see where the confusion may arise as to where it can be safely terminated with the key word being safe. There is no absolute clear guidance on this in the BS or Building Regs Part G.

On what premise did you get the two G3 qualified guys out? Generally we are not charity orginisations and if you asked them to have a look to estimate on the cost of doing work they will not offer a full free diagnosis on new done work so you can get someone else in to put it right. (well i certainly wouldn't)
If you were paying them then checks that needed to be made any work that may have needed doing would be done.

Gas safe have nothing to do with cylinders. Contact building control.
You can download the instructions easily enough from the manufacturer website.

I sympathise somewhat with your situation but ultimately, it is you, the customer, who has the final responsibility to ensure anyone carrying out work has the correct qualifications and experience.
Unfortunately very few do and base their decision on cost alone.

 

[Avatar]

I agree with tamz!

 

[Gromit]

Thanks for the pointers Tamz. I'm on the CIPHE website (cheers Toddy) at the moment to find someone suitably qualified to work on unvented cylinders.

I hired the engineers on the basis that they were to look over my system. Both were paid. I can only hope that both were genuinly qualified and having looked into it I now have my doubts.

I'm not looking for sympathy from anyone, just some concise advice, something which you have done, so thank you.
From the end user's point of view it is a mine field. I've tried talking to the local building control and spoken to someone who vaguely told me to "procure a tradesman qualified to G3 level". What she couldn't do was tell me how to go about this, how to check whether the individual was genuine, and what ID to ask for.

On arriving at my house, and once I asked, one of the engineers took out his Corgi card and showed me a symbol - a blue square with a water drop, telling me that this is the symbol for unvented. I don't know if this is true or not. I don't know if there is a central database for me to check; the kind of thing that Gas Safe has. I certainly can't find one. The other engineer told me that he didn't carry his ID around with him and promised to send me a headed paper receipt having taken £60 in cash off me. I'm still waiting.

There was a thread on this forum a while ago by Plumbstar Tom - "Illegal Gas Fitter Caught". Chap nicked for fitted several boilers illegally and dangerously and with a fake card. And what did this potential killer get? A £500 fine. Wonderful. So is it any wonder that when I called around the local paper adverts of people advertising themselves as "Heating Engineers" and asked them as to their qualification, I received a variety of responses....."my ticket's lapsed but I'm ok", "yes I'm Corgi" (I thought it was Gas Safe these days and anyway I didn't think Gas Safe covers unvented cylinders) and the prize had to go to the man who swore on his boy's eyesight that he knew what he was doing and that he'd done it since 1998. How reassuring.

Think about it from the point of view of Mr White Collar who doesn't on a daily basis deal with people who lie their way through their work. I used to be nice and naive and now I've been shafted I don't trust anyone unless they can prove otherwise. Anyway I'm off to take my twins for their injections now. But first I'm going to call the NHS and check that the nurse really is registered with the NMC and that her registration hasn't lapsed, because ultimately if it all goes horribly wrong I'll only have myself to blame.

 

[fuzzy]

like i said before, it depends how its wired, i could email you a copy of the wiring needed ofr an unvented, tried to copy it here but it wont upload? its my own work in pdf

 

[Gromit]

Thanks Mr Fuzzy. Downloaded it from manufacturer's site. http://www.rmcylinders.com/files/stelinstall.pdf

 

[fuzzy]

like the drawing shows it doesnt need an additional 2 port for an s plan, but does need a safety cut out wired in, good luck

 

[Gromit]

Thanks Fuzzy. I'm getting in a proper person to check it out. Hopefully something easy to test for. I have a sparks on site tomorrow so he may even be able to do it.

 

[shorticus]

Think I may have a source for the confusion over the discharge pipe. Tamz is of course absolutely correct about G3 and the British Standards, what I have found in addition though is within BPEC's (British Plumbing Employers Council (Training) Ltd) unvented training manual where it states that a high level termination with a turnback may now be acceptable with prior approval from the Building Control officer, it doesn't state where this guidance is from though...

 

[Gromit]

Thanks for this. Thinking logically I would imagine it may be acceptable at a level high enough so that by the time the fluid hits the ground it will have cooled down sufficiently to do no damage, and probably away from an area where people walk.

 

[shorticus]

perhaps a (cold) water discharge test may prove prudent just to ensure that it safely runs down the wall and doesn't dangerously splash out, you could do this yourselves by pouring water into the black plastic tundish with a funnel while someone watches the discharge point outside.

 

[Gromit]

Thanks back would that replicate the pressue the water would come out in a real situation?

 

[shorticus]

Thanks back would that replicate the pressue the water would come out in a real situation?

I think it will give you a good idea especially if you pour a good amount down there, your tundish is an air break so you’ll not get discharge at pressure so to speak anyway, from that point onwards it will be quantity and gravity that will determine how it behaves at the outlet

 

[tamz]

Think I may have a source for the confusion over the discharge pipe. Tamz is of course absolutely correct about G3 and the British Standards, what I have found in addition though is within BPEC's (British Plumbing Employers Council (Training) Ltd) unvented training manual where it states that a high level termination with a turnback may now be acceptable with prior approval from the Building Control officer, it doesn't state where this guidance is from though...

It comes from the word safe and by using something which is not so common anymore.

 

[Gromit]

Thank you chaps. If only everyone in this industry had a safety first attitude. Thanks for your help.

 

[Toddyplumb]

Tamz , that wouldnt be 2 words stating with C and S