DIY Gas Fitting

[fuzzy]

In regards to competency with gas an individual is only competent if they have been deemed competent by a governing body
Gas Installations in a individuals home if carried out by an unqualified homeowner are still classed as illegal installations but these would only come to light if there was a unsafe situation or incident.

not if competent

 

[the baker]

Have you considered hanging the boiler your self,

Plumbing in the water bits (hot, cold, flow & return, condensate run, PRV tube) and having opened up the hole for the flue, get in a local RGI to finish it off at a reasonable price?

Tim

 

[PlumbBobBob]

Have you considered hanging the boiler your self,

Plumbing in the water bits (hot, cold, flow & return, condensate run, PRV tube) and having opened up the hole for the flue, get in a local RGI to finish it off at a reasonable price?

Tim

all the jobs you mention are jobs to be completed legally only by a gas safe engineer

 

[dancinplumba]

and i as an rgi wouldn't touch it with a barge pole even if i was skint

 

[the baker]

all the jobs you mention are jobs to be completed legally only by a gas safe engineer

Some folks may disagree with you.

Tim

 

[the baker]

and i as an rgi wouldn't touch it with a barge pole even if i was skint

More work for other people then.

Tim

 

[dancinplumba]

More work for other people then.

Tim

i dont mind at all

 

[the baker]

The thing we all have to accept is the fact that when ever we get to work on an appliance previously imstalled by some one else, we are obliged to commission it.

We dont assume its been done by a Registered Gas Installer just because the pipeworks neat.

So the benifit of doing a job where the householder, in this instance Gazultra is being honist and upfont about his lack of Job Licence, is that we are probably less likely to miss something.


I am not trying to be arguementative just thinking it may be better if we work with the unregistered than unknowingly work for them.

Tim


PS is Barlic still east of Preston, down the M65?

 

[Bernie2]

The thing we all have to accept is the fact that when ever we get to work on an appliance previously imstalled by some one else, we are obliged to commission it.

We dont assume its been done by a Registered Gas Installer just because the pipeworks neat.

So the benifit of doing a job where the householder, in this instance Gazultra is being honist and upfont about his lack of Job Licence, is that we are probably less likely to miss something.


I am not trying to be arguementative just thinking it may be better if we work with the unregistered than unknowingly work for them.

Tim


PS is Barlic still east of Preston, down the M65?

Yes its true. When we first go to service or repair an already installed gas installation or appliance we have no idea who installed it or how it was installed. Our job is to ensure it is installed properly. So it makes no sense not to service or certify a system.

 

[Puddle]

The thing we all have to accept is the fact that when ever we get to work on an appliance previously imstalled by some one else, we are obliged to commission it.

We dont assume its been done by a Registered Gas Installer just because the pipeworks neat.

So the benifit of doing a job where the householder, in this instance Gazultra is being honist and upfont about his lack of Job Licence, is that we are probably less likely to miss something.


I am not trying to be arguementative just thinking it may be better if we work with the unregistered than unknowingly work for them.

Tim


PS is Barlic still east of Preston, down the M65?

Can see what you are saying and agree it could be argued you are better knowing the history of an installation be it good or bad


Others would say if you are doing your job properly,it does not matter ,as you will find any problems anyway

I just wanted to make the point ,that,we should indeed presume an appliance has been installed by a competent person and correctly,this is why no gas inspection is required on any appliance installed until appliance is 1 year old because it is assumed it has been installed correctly by the powers that be.

As for obligation,I am only obliged to carry out the works I wish

Learn't that years ago,when corgi insisted I should issue a gsr without labeling the boiler min ''at risk'',when sited in the shower area over a bath,they said,electrical side maybe a problem,gas is ok !Told customer the same,she screamed at me as I walked off down the path,giving her no paperwork

imho

 

[Bernie2]

Yes, I would agree with that. I have had some real problems with that, when working as an operative for large housing associations on their housing stock. They want to keep the tenant happy and they do not want to spend money they feel they may not have too. The pressure on both you as the operative and the company you work for, can be tremendous to pass work you may not feel comfortable with passing. In your scenario even CORGI would not back you, yet who would take the blame if it went wrong? Please God it never did of course. I often think the protection of employed gas service operatives is nowhere near good enough to stop the many pressures excerted on them from both companies and clients.

 

[dancinplumba]

The thing we all have to accept is the fact that when ever we get to work on an appliance previously imstalled by some one else, we are obliged to commission it.

We dont assume its been done by a Registered Gas Installer just because the pipeworks neat.

So the benifit of doing a job where the householder, in this instance Gazultra is being honist and upfont about his lack of Job Licence, is that we are probably less likely to miss something.


I am not trying to be arguementative just thinking it may be better if we work with the unregistered than unknowingly work for them.

Tim


PS is Barlic still east of Preston, down the M65?

think so, unless they have moved it

 

[fuzzy]

The thing we all have to accept is the fact that when ever we get to work on an appliance previously imstalled by some one else, we are obliged to commission it.

We dont assume its been done by a Registered Gas Installer just because the pipeworks neat.

So the benifit of doing a job where the householder, in this instance Gazultra is being honist and upfont about his lack of Job Licence, is that we are probably less likely to miss something.


I am not trying to be arguementative just thinking it may be better if we work with the unregistered than unknowingly work for them.

Tim


PS is Barlic still east of Preston, down the M65?

or better still get the work done by a competent person or rgi

 

[goz666]

Just read all 12 pages and am still not sure what is competent and what isn't ..lol..I read somewhere a few years ago that a guy down south of 25 years BG experience was working in the industry and refused to join CORGI. Went on to say that he challenged CORGI to take him to court and prove he was incompetent, advice given to him was that unless he'd caused an accident or they could prove his work was not up to standard they would lose and so they just ignored him and he carried on regardless. Anyone else remember this and know the outcome ????

 

[fuzzy]

Just read all 12 pages and am still not sure what is competent and what isn't ..lol..I read somewhere a few years ago that a guy down south of 25 years BG experience was working in the industry and refused to join CORGI. Went on to say that he challenged CORGI to take him to court and prove he was incompetent, advice given to him was that unless he'd caused an accident or they could prove his work was not up to standard they would lose and so they just ignored him and he carried on regardless. Anyone else remember this and know the outcome ????

but he was still breaking the law if he was working for gain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[goz666]

but he was still breaking the law if he was working for gain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd say it was up to CORGI to prove his incompetence, if they can't prove that he ain't breaking the law imo. I think they knew that and that's why they never took him to court. How can anyone prove incompetence unless they can gather evidence of such i.e. accidents, poor workmanship ??
From experience judges listen to facts, and I would really like to see Gassafe prove this in court once and for all or change the wording.
We all know it should say only person's with the relevant ACS qualifications and registered with the governing body are legal to carry out Gas work, there must be a financial reason for them not doing this ???

 

[fuzzy]

I'd say it was up to CORGI to prove his incompetence, if they can't prove that he ain't breaking the law imo. I think they knew that and that's why they never took him to court. How can anyone prove incompetence unless they can gather evidence of such i.e. accidents, poor workmanship ??
From experience judges listen to facts, and I would really like to see Gassafe prove this in court once and for all or change the wording.
We all know it should say only person's with the relevant ACS qualifications and registered with the governing body are legal to carry out Gas work, there must be a financial reason for them not doing this ???

im not suggesting he is or is not competent, but it is quite clear, to work for gain ie.employed or self employed you not only need to be competent but registered. If he isnt registered he aint legal

 

[Bernie2]

Its interesting, but when you think about it, many registered gas fitters with qualifications have probably made mistakes as well as those without. What really matters is the quality of the work produced not if the person who did it is qualified or not. The presumptions is that if you are qualified you should be competent of turning out good work. So qualification is based upon presumption not proven ability. But companies get paid for their work not their qualification, its probably why a well qualified 3 month course person has problems getting employment with companies. The companies assume they have no experience of turning out good work.

The thing is you can't really know if they can turn out good work, until you see some of it. So what if you went to a site and saw good work from a none qualified person and good work from a qualified person. Which one would you pass if you did not know which engineer was qualified and which was not?

Obviously you would have to pass both.

 

[fuzzy]

I'd say it was up to CORGI to prove his incompetence, if they can't prove that he ain't breaking the law imo. I think they knew that and that's why they never took him to court. How can anyone prove incompetence unless they can gather evidence of such i.e. accidents, poor workmanship ??
From experience judges listen to facts, and I would really like to see Gassafe prove this in court once and for all or change the wording.
We all know it should say only person's with the relevant ACS qualifications and registered with the governing body are legal to carry out Gas work, there must be a financial reason for them not doing this ???

have you warned him?

 

[fuzzy]

Its interesting, but when you think about it, many registered gas fitters with qualifications have probably made mistakes as well as those without. What really matters is the quality of the work produced not if the person who did it is qualified or not. The presumptions is that if you are qualified you should be competent of turning out good work. So qualification is based upon presumption not proven ability. But companies get paid for their work not their qualification, its probably why a well qualified 3 month course person has problems getting employment with companies. The companies assume they have no experience of turning out good work.

The thing is you can't really know if they can turn out good work, until you see some of it. So what if you went to a site and saw good work from a none qualified person and good work from a qualified person. Which one would you pass if you did not know which engineer was qualified and which was not?

Obviously you would have to pass both.

you wouldnt be checking a non qualified persons work as they are not registered so wouldnt know!

the regs say you cannot be employed (including self) if you are not registered with gas safe. so regardless of the competence thing you MUST be registered

 

[mountainman]

you wouldnt be checking a non qualified persons work as they are not registered so wouldnt know!

the regs say you cannot be employed (including self) if you are not registered with gas safe. so regardless of the competence thing you MUST be registered

Correct!
End of discussion IMO.

 

[truemanufan]

To just sum up basically, if u do DIY gas installations, you are a clown! End of

 

[ManchesterGas]

You are only deemed 'competent' if you have passed ACS and are registered with Gas Safe

 

[Bernie2]

How can you know when you service a gas system who put it in? How do you know a none ACS apprentice never installed it under supervision?

Many systems over 20 years old where installed by none registered people. It is the standard of work that matter's not qualification. It is true if your paid to do a job you have to be Gas Safe registered but DIYers can still do it in their own home. If you never knew who installed the system you would never know who had done it.

Suppose a gas fitter with 30 years experience installed a system but their registration had lapsed and a three month registered gas fitter installed a system would you fail the 30 year persons system if the systems were both of the same standard?

So you would look to see if it complied with the regulations and pass it, if you never, you would have to declare every system you met ID and turn it off, because you did not know if the person who installed it was ACS or not.

Try that with a big landlord and you will probably soon find yourself out of work. The operative word is "Safe" you are employed to decide whether it is "Safe" or not, not who is qualified or not.

Why do we suppose both CORGI and GAS SAFE want to see your work even after registration and proof of qualification?
A Gas escape is not concerned with regulations but good work makes a system safer. So look at the quality not the qualification.

 

[mountainman]

Who worked on the installation previously is irrelevant.
It is currently the law that anyone who works on gas systems must be GSR. experience and competence are a bonus.

 

[Bernie2]

That is true mountainman. If you get paid for gas work you have to be registered. The operative word is paid. CORGI and Gas Safe both usually inspect your work after registration. Why would they do that if quality of work was not an issue?

If registration and qualification alone where the answer to anything would we have so many car accidents? The reason Gas Safe inspectors are probably
not all over the place inspecting work quality is cost not perhaps because they would not like to be.

Competence is a mute point, I have never asked a doctor if they are competent or asked to see their registration I just assume they are competent because they have set themselves up as a doctor.

I think in English law you have duty of care to be able to do what you say you can.
So if you work on gas you must be able to do so to meet the requirements of The Gas Regs. The blame is on you if you can't whether registered or not. It would be no use claiming "I am qualified as a defence in the case of an accident!" The accident would probably serve as proof you weren't. So quality of work is a big issue.

A bit like a well qualified baker saying "I bake lovely cakes!" How do you know unless you eat one?


That is what companies want "Good work and few if any come backs" Having practical skill knowledge in our heads is not much use to a customer if we can't turn it into real quality work.

 

[fuzzy]

Correct!
End of discussion IMO.

yes it is correct for people 'working' on gas making money. If your doing it for yourself you do not have to be registered, only competent

 

[fuzzy]

You are only deemed 'competent' if you have passed ACS and are registered with Gas Safe

why can you not be competent, passed your ACS and not registered? nothing wrong with doing that and working on your own gas

 

[fuzzy]

To just sum up basically, if u do DIY gas installations, you are a clown! End of

if your competent and do your own DIY installation whats the problem? registered or not, your not breaking any rules are you are working as safe as somebody who is registered

 

[fuzzy]

Who worked on the installation previously is irrelevant.
It is currently the law that anyone who works on gas systems must be GSR. experience and competence are a bonus.

wrong, you dont have to be GSR to work on gas

 

[Bernie2]

Yes fuzzy is right.

Lets be honest, there is nothing stopping people working on gas in their own homes now. Would it not be better if they are proven competent on a short course to recognise that?

I feel sure many ex or unemployed gas fitters would welcome that.

It would not be a case of allowing them to work for money in the full open market place, just their own home and possibly in a relations home for no money, if found to be competent?
It cuts out risk doesn't it, while it does not threaten the livelihoods of others who want to work for money to any great extent?

The idea that all of a sudden thousands of ex-gas fitters willing to work for nothing taking all the work from those that do, would appear seems silly.

And anyway they could not do that as the licence would restrict them to work on only one or two houses as named and stated on the licence. I cannot imagine that being seen as a commercial threat to anybody. It would also perhaps help clear up a grey area.

You have to go careful about what salesmen say about being GSR to promote training courses and the extent it applies.

And I do not promote none GSR working and would recommend everybody be GSR registered if they can afford it. The thing is the costs are so prohibitive that a none working individual would struggle to get back the cost layout.

That is not fair to individuals with few resources, for what is supposedly an imposed safety requirement. Lets not forget ACS are not training they are safety inspections.

Any cost regarding safety should be easily recoverable by everybody possibly by tax breaks or grants.

The likes of BS should only cost a couple of quid for a standard not the high cost they are.

Lets be honest if I said to you "You have got to work safely, but I will charge you thousands of pounds to tell you how!" you would think I was more concerned with my wallet than safety wouldn't you?

We are supposed to be keeping people safe not making a small fortune out of safety.

 

[ecowarm]

Agree with you Bernie all the way

 

[mountainman]

Don't know if this link works but have a look if it does.

[DLMURL]http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2012/coi-e-65.htm[/DLMURL]

Ps, who's making a small fortune???

 

[fuzzy]

Don't know if this link works but have a look if it does.

[DLMURL="http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2012/coi-e-65.htm"]Plumber jailed for carrying out illegal gas work[/DLMURL]

Ps, who's making a small fortune???

yes it is thanks, it backs up what i have been saying, to work as a gas fitter on numerous houses and claim to be registered you are working illegaly. This does not prove in any way that it is illegal to work on your own home if competent to do so

 

[mountainman]

Did you read this bit though?

HSE Inspector Edward Crick said:

"It is against the law for anyone who is not registered with Gas Safe to carry out work on a gas appliance. When unqualified workers try to bypass the law in this way they are not only putting themselves at risk of prosecution, and potentially a large fine or a spell in prison - they are also putting their customers' lives at risk.

The inspector doesn't say anything about competence or working in your own home or for friends & family being acceptable does he.
The first three lines of his statement say it all!

 

[fuzzy]

Did you read this bit though?

HSE Inspector Edward Crick said:

"It is against the law for anyone who is not registered with Gas Safe to carry out work on a gas appliance. When unqualified workers try to bypass the law in this way they are not only putting themselves at risk of prosecution, and potentially a large fine or a spell in prison - they are also putting their customers' lives at risk.

The inspector doesn't say anything about competence or working in your own home or for friends & family being acceptable does he.
The first three lines of his statement say it all!

yep, and it further strengthens what ive been saying, when working for 'customers' you must be registered, in this context i totally agree. this is different than working in your own home, the regs state quite clearly you must be competent, doesnt mention registration

 

[mountainman]

But you have ignored the first three lines of his statement which clearly state that it is against the law for a non GSR individual to work on a gas appliance.

Twenty two litte words sums up the legal viewpoint and one on which a court of law would base their case; regardless of the competency or experience of the defendant.

 

[fuzzy]

But you have ignored the first three lines of his statement which clearly state that it is against the law for a non GSR individual to work on a gas appliance.

Twenty two litte words sums up the legal viewpoint and one on which a court of law would base their case; regardless of the competency or experience of the defendant.

in this context he is right, but it doesnt affect working on your own property, this article didnt talk about somebody working on their own property. it delt with somebody earning a living from gas work without being registered, therefore in that context all that is written is correct

do you have any links to somebody being done for installing something properly in their own home when competent but not being registered?

 

[mountainman]

No I don't, but do you have any links to the contrary?

The LAW States blah blah. End of storyIMHO.

How about you settling this debate once and for all and seek definitive guidance from both the HSE and Gas Safe and publish it on this site...

 

[fuzzy]

i dont need to , they have posted the information in the regulations, its there for all to see and ive quoted here in the past.

I dont have any links to the contrary, but then again who would report the fact that somebody carried something out legally and didnt go to court?

 

[mountainman]

Back to square one then, I Win!

 

[fuzzy]

not quite sure what you refer to when you say you win, in fact im not quite sure you understand the regulations. it states quite cleary you only have to be competent to work on gas, you only have to be regsitered if you work and charge for it ie emplyed or self employed. it really is that simple, its there in black and white
its up to you to prove you are competenet, it doesnt state what that refers to, it is widely accepted that to be competent you must have your acs, i agree, but i also feel there are exceptions to this, is my retired friend who was a tutor at british gas and helped set up the acs when it first started

 

[lambchop]

The reason why the d.i.y. stores are allowed to sell gas parts etc, enabling the d.i.y. er to put everybody at risk is because they went to court and argued the point that it is restrictive under the freedom of trade act to stop them from doing so! It goes to show how many people are doing there own work because they are selling lots of stuff at silly prices that no tradesman would pay unless a dire emergency on a sun aft. Spoke to a gas safe inspector about this and they said we have tried to stop this a number of times but they have chucked the towel in. Should invalidate house insurance if you dont have your gas apps serviced annually = good all round for everybody

 

[Bernie2]

Hmm!

Would not mind it being part of an insurance policy to get gas installations tested.

But would limit the cost a gas fitter could charge to about £5 to the customer and the rest paid by the insurance company. It may be amazing how many customers you would get if costs are low, even the DIY would find it cheaper to get you in.

Funny really how Safety and cost get all mixed up. Seems to me, a lot of money can be made out of Safety, but a lot of Safety standards can be kept up by low cost. What about uninsured people?

As to not selling gas fittings in stores. Yes okay, only sell them to the customer on proof of gas work being undertaken with an indemnity that they will be installed when used according to the Gas Regs. That way it would stop unfair gas fitters charging what ever they liked for them.

In practice you can buy unstamped BS water fittings in stores even though it is illegal to use them.

 

[lambchop]

Maybe Im a little too hardcore, in the way I cant imagine anyone buying a gas fitting who is not qualiffied to fit unless they are up to no good. When you need a new exhaust you dont go and buy it and then take it to the mechanic to fit. Government should get their 'balls' out of their mums handbag. Make it illegal to sell these fittings unless an I.D. card is presented and a hefty fine if a shop is caught doing it. It seems to have improved not selling alcohol to kids by toughening up some common sense laws, why not to gas....?

 

[fuzzy]

The reason why the d.i.y. stores are allowed to sell gas parts etc, enabling the d.i.y. er to put everybody at risk is because they went to court and argued the point that it is restrictive under the freedom of trade act to stop them from doing so! It goes to show how many people are doing there own work because they are selling lots of stuff at silly prices that no tradesman would pay unless a dire emergency on a sun aft. Spoke to a gas safe inspector about this and they said we have tried to stop this a number of times but they have chucked the towel in. Should invalidate house insurance if you dont have your gas apps serviced annually = good all round for everybody

just because somebody buys a gas part does not mean it is fitted illegally

 

[Bernie2]

Its called freedom of choice. The buyer knows or should know the Gas Regs. It is up to them if they want to break the law. We do not govern cars down to the legal maximum speed limit do we? It is up to us if we break the limits. People have to be responsible.

 

[midge]

Maybe more people would use a registered installer if the costs were lower, unfortunately with current ACS and Gas Safe costs the installer has to charge a lot.

Can you imagine the outcry if all car drivers had to re-take a driving test every five years.

 

[Bernie2]

Yes I suppose cost is the main factor why you get people doing DIY. Some do like doing it for a hobby mind. The cost of gas training for ACS and the likes do add on a lot to running costs for a small company. If however, you consider how much money is made by gas suppliers and appliance manufacturers who are reliant on appliances being fitted by gas fitters, isn't it fair to ask for a large contribution from them toward training and ACS costs?

We even get boiler manufaturers seeming to want to charge you for learning how to service their equipment they should be paying you for wanting to do it.

Lets be honest wouldyou sell motor cars if nobody had passed a driving test that was required by law?

Surely safety is the object of ACS and to learn how to work safely should cost next to nothing.

 

[Puddle]

Maybe more people would use a registered installer if the costs were lower, unfortunately with current ACS and Gas Safe costs the installer has to charge a lot.

Can you imagine the outcry if all car drivers had to re-take a driving test every five years.

What is the difference in cost from a unqualified tradesman in gas and a tradesman with his gas card,not that much I believe ?