power flush

[efficient]

Quick one... if you want to do a power flush from a combi boilers pump... whats the best way of tricking the boiler into thinking the pumps running (without wrecking the pump) in order to heat the water up in the system... as you all know, if you disconnect the pump the boiler wont wont fire..

 

[moony]

i just wouldnt do it - would be interesting to hear what other people do - i personally never flush with the boiler still attached.

 

[coltheplumb]

never ever powerflush through a combi......disconect the boiler and conect powerflush unit to flow n return pipes.....

 

[efficient]

you can powerflush from a combi pump using kamcos pump head adapter... there FX2 works better at the water being 50oC . i went to one of there training sessions and they expained that whilst circulating the water around the systen you can turn the boiler on to get the water temp up.. wasnt till i was on my way home when i realised the boiler wouldnt work without the pump on.

 

[TonyDIY]

No safety features should ever be "cheated" this can cause a lot of damage and even explosion. The powerflush association recommends flushing the combi boiler when doing the whole system so that no sludge remain to cause future problems. Don't see why it would be a problem to anyway, as long as you know what you are doing.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

No safety features should ever be "cheated" this can cause a lot of damage and even explosion. The powerflush association recommends flushing the combi boiler when doing the whole system so that no sludge remain to cause future problems. Don't see why it would be a problem to anyway, as long as you know what you are doing.

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explain how ?????????????

have power flushed many combi boilers none have exploded , and have power flushed many heat only with boiler connected

 

[TonyDIY]

I did not mean that they explode from power flushing. I meant that if the safety features are bypassed the boiler will run till it catastrophically fails - therefor it should not be done and is illegal. He did ask how to make the boiler run without the pump working.

Power flushing any boiler is fine.

 

[GQuigley67]

dont powerflush machines operate at 1.5 bar ?

 

[SafeGasInstall]

dont powerflush machines operate at 1.5 bar ?

it's dependable on the lay out of the house if you have 4 store house and u power flush from grand floor or basement yo u will have ,keep in mine it is open to atmosphere

 

[GQuigley67]

never used one before thats why im asking, but i thought they operated at 1 to 1.5bar and it was the flow rate that counted

 

[Blackcatgas]

The power flush machine will activate the flow switch, it will snse water "flowing" wether its from the pump in the boiler or the pump on the flush machine surely?.

 

[Dannypipe]

I could be missing the obvious here, but why not remove a rad, attach the powerflush to the valves. Heat the system as per normal, then open your rad valves, and flush it.

You could heat the system, isolate the boiler, drain the heat boiler, attach the pump adapter, flush it, then reatach the pump head. Bit more faf, but I have done this too.

Oh and what I think is meant above about boilers exploding is to trick the boiler that the pump is running, in order to initiate firing. DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS.

Very dangerous. Heating the system once and then flushing will do. If not buy a powerflusher with a heating element. Or hire one.

 

[TonyDIY]

A power flush machine runs at a high flow rate (about 100 liters per minute) not high pressure normally at <0.8bar. Skill, high flow rate and the use of chemicals is what cleans your system.

Sealed systems: (combi boilers) operate at 1-2bar
Open vented: more like 0.5bar

Doing a power flush at 0.8bar will not destroy or damage your system, because of pressure.
But, a DIY power flush can cause serious flooding; A power flush machine can fill your bath, in one minute. Now what happens if one of the hoses come loose while it is running?

 

[GQuigley67]

thats what i thought, if they run at the boilers normal cold pressure then i dont see the problem.

 

[Dannypipe]

A power flush machine runs at a high flow rate (about 100 liters per minute) not high pressure normally at <0.8bar. Skill, high flow rate and the use of chemicals is what cleans your system.

Sealed systems: (combi boilers) operate at 1-2bar
Open vented: more like 0.5bar

Doing a power flush at 0.8bar will not destroy or damage your system, because of pressure.
But, a DIY power flush can cause serious flooding; A power flush machine can fill your bath, in one minute. Now what happens if one of the hoses come loose while it is running?

All true, but I think the from the original post, that they're interested in the benefits of heat to the chemicals. There is some proof that warm water makes the chemicals more effective (it makes sense really) - but i've flushed lots of systems cold and had a good result.

 

[paulnwales]

why would any plumber want to flush from the boiler?? it does not make great sence!! if you insist on some hot water heat the system 1st, but i doubt that the temp makes a huge difference, there are flushers that heat the water for you. The only time i have connected to thepump was on a y plan. i usually take a rad off.

 

[Dannypipe]

When I flushed from boiler it was because the boiler was coming off, but it still worked. So I heated water to 50, isolated, attached Powerflush and flushed system.

Then removed boiler and changed it. No reason to take a rad off and the benefit of hot water flush. Probably took me five mins to rig it to the pump via the adapter. Could have just done it with the boiler removed, but as said, thought I'd warm the water in the system for a more thorough flush.

I generally take a rad off too, but there's no hard and fast rules just whatever does the job most effectively.

 

[moogwai]

here's my 2 bob......in my own opinion and what i do is....cut into flow and return and flush through here,you'll get a far better flow rate through the system (cuts out the auto bypass inside the boilers) and use a water heater like a combi mag (that'll heat the water enough to do the flush,takes a bit more time though). I'll then turn my hoses up side down,disconnect the pump wires and flush through the boiler to give the boiler a clean,without reversing the flow as this can damage the divertor etc..
On an open vented system its no problem......remove pump from system and connect on to pump valves and then use the boiler as the heat source.

 

[buckley plumb]

i read a power flush leaflet the other day and they state they power flush the boiler to clean the plate to plate and heat exchanger - my question is i can see how the main heat exchanger can be flushed as there is a through path from flow to rtn - but how can the plate to plate be flushed as if you push the duiverter to hw made then there is no water path to rtn .

thanks ant

 

[WHPES]

Some boiler manufacturers have instructions for best way of powerflushing their boilers. Contact customer support.

 

[TonyDIY]

i read a power flush leaflet the other day and they state they power flush the boiler to clean the plate to plate and heat exchanger - my question is i can see how the main heat exchanger can be flushed as there is a through path from flow to rtn - but how can the plate to plate be flushed as if you push the diverter to hw made then there is no water path to rtn .

thanks ant

The powerflush association recommends (yes I am a member) that the plate heat exchanger should be removed from the boiler when the customer complains from a hot water problem so it can be power flushed and de-scaled (if needed) when a full power flush of the system is done. Because the client would rather pay slightly more when you are there. Over having the same problem when you have finished the power flush and they have to pay anyway.

2 reasons for removing:
- No real water path through central heating circuit part, if you are connected from a radiator or external pump and the machine can damage the diverter valve (depending on machine size)
- The problem could be that the plate heat exchanger is scaled up and/or sludged up. You would not know till it is removed. Obviously need to use diff. chemicals if scaled up.

 

[moogwai]

The powerflush association recommends (yes I am a member) that the plate heat exchanger should be removed from the boiler when the customer complains from a hot water problem so it can be power flushed and de-scaled (if needed) when a full power flush of the system is done. Because the client would rather pay slightly more when you are there. Over having the same problem when you have finished the power flush and they have to pay anyway.

2 reasons for removing:
- No real water path through central heating circuit part, if you are connected from a radiator or external pump and the machine can damage the diverter valve (depending on machine size)
- The problem could be that the plate heat exchanger is scaled up and/or sludged up. You would not know till it is removed. Obviously need to use diff. chemicals if scaled up.

agreed, when customer complains about hot water problems i recommend having the flush done then renewing the plate h/e....sometimes even by taking off the h/e and descaling it won't remove the most stubborn and blocked plates.

 

[aceservicing]

The boiler and system must be flushed together firing the boiler to acheave bucket temp aprox 60deg c .
Fx2 in 1 visit only in non alloy heat exchanger or heat exchanger will turn to liquid and dissolve , you can still flush the boiler from rad tails all rads off and operate boiler , kamco know me very well i stayed behind 1 hour for tech chat. If it is a -hitty system why not pre treat 5 days in advance with hyperflush tell customer use boiler as normal .

 

[aceservicing]

Diverter damage ,,,,,,,,, this will only occur in a worcester high-flow 400 because of o-ring design flow can only go one way , 2,361 successful flushes and still counting .

 

[truemanufan]

Just starting out in the trade! Done some training on power flushing just wondering how often I will come across this being done? Is it just on heating upgrades and installs or is it also a maintenance issue? Also is it as dangerous as everyone says it is? (damage to property, high pressure explosions, valves blown off etc)

 

[aceservicing]

You cant achieve a high pressure with powerflushing you have an open bucket with no resistance on return to bucket
water is high velocity not high pressure if you feed in 1 bar and recive out 1 bar where is the high pressure . If a sealed system sealed bucket 2bar out 0.25 return there is pressure of 1.75 bar get the drift ,,, people need to see the whole picture .
Its not uncommon for me to go in after a company and re-flush the system, powerflush association is also wrong you can flush plate heat exchanger without acid in situ from a rad tail . I have proved this over a 15 year period ... Boiler manufacturer change plate heat exchanger for new then low and behold system debris and scale get stuck inside quick fix quick buck, whole system must be flushed together . Had gas safe inspector with me 2 weeks ago impressed . With customer calling 9pm that evening the house never been so hot and new boiler now working after nov 2010 installation . The sth wales company never disclose clients names installed and flushed 3 times and told him pipework was at fault.
They draind down without looking in F + E tank i have never seen silt like it when they drained down ( this medium was introduced to the heating system ) i was flushing for 10 hours . I have 100 percent sucess rate , before gas i was an aircraft technician / test pilot .

 

[aceservicing]

I sub contract to a company in london 3 days per week and clear 120,00 pa after tax cis stopped at source . Like they say you get what you pay for in life .

 

[TonyDIY]

Diverter damage ,,,,,,,,, this will only occur in a worcester high-flow 400 because of o-ring design flow can only go one way , 2,361 successful flushes and still counting .

That is a lot of power flushes.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

120k annually ?

 

[smhstu]

What are peoples thoughts on the magnaclense used without a powerflush machine?

 

[SafeGasInstall]

point less

(if central heating system is dirty obviously


its like driving your car for 200 000 miles without changing the oil and then fit new oil filter !

 

[SafeGasInstall]

my bad ,sorry misread magnacleanse ,thought magnaclean !

need to get my glasses

 

[Blackcatgas]

I sub contract to a company in london 3 days per week and clear 120,00 pa after tax cis stopped at source . Like they say you get what you pay for in life .

Are you as good looking and fertile as me?.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

if you were good looking you would not become a plumber

 

[aceservicing]

Would that be a prestigious heating engineer , soz don't shove my hand up toilets . But like they say where there's -hit there's money .,

 

[FD Powerflow]

I powerflush everyday of the week, the best tip I can give is to buy a pump head adaptor from Fernox or Kamco, combis use a flow switch to detect the pump running, once this is activated this allows the pcb to let the fan start up before the burner fires. The flow switch usually will only allow flow in one direction and the trick here is to run the PF machine in the right direction to get the heat on and then switch the boiler off to get the flow going the other way once the you change the flow direction on the machine.

As with any chemical reaction its a case of the hotter you get it the faster the cleaning chemicals work, think washing the dishes in a kitchen sink, you wouldnt put fairy liquid in with cold water.

 

[bigboy]

Originally Posted by aceservicing
I sub contract to a company in london 3 days per week and clear 120,00 pa after tax cis stopped at source . Like they say you get what you pay for in life .


i bet you work(or the company u work for in London) for the government £30 lightbulbs and all that, or in this case £8 for a tee, £50 for 3m copper 15mm etc. lol

 

[paulnwales]

120k? was that wrote by one of them training centres trying to con ppl into paying thousands to be a plumber? i thought i was doing well ... well im obv not!!!

 

[aceservicing]

Not a training centre just 19 years paying off .

 

[moogwai]

Not a training centre just 19 years paying off .

fairplay to ya mate....lend me a fiver?? lol.

 

[aceservicing]

Soz got no Change have the £50 . Plenty of money in Birmingham and lots of work ????

 

[aceservicing]

No sorry bigboy I'm just the finest gas has to offer . I'm generally on my 27th boiler breakdown by 2pm have lunch at 5pm nock off 10pm head back where I'm staying the night hope I don't get a call on the way home . As for powerflushing I'm on 2, 627 and counting with a 100 percent success rate specialising in single pipe systems / microbore all the rubbish no one else wants . B4 this I was an aircraft technician , test pilot .

 

[GQuigley67]

can i be your pal ? lol

if im half as sucsessful as you, i'll be happy!!

 

[aceservicing]

Isnt haggis fantastic

 

[moogwai]

No sorry bigboy I'm just the finest gas has to offer . I'm generally on my 27th boiler breakdown by 2pm have lunch at 5pm nock off 10pm head back where I'm staying the night hope I don't get a call on the way home . As for powerflushing I'm on 2, 627 and counting with a 100 percent success rate specialising in single pipe systems / microbore all the crap no one else wants . B4 this I was an aircraft technician , test pilot .

So you powerflush one pipe systems....didn't think that there was a suitable way of flushing those,other than pre-dosing the system a week before the flush and then seeing how the flush goes!! if you have any tips i'd be glad to hear them!
I wont flush systems with 8mm microbore on....i just dont think the 8mm pipe will allow the velocity of water through to powerflush it adequetley.....10mm on the other hand is ok.
And work is ok in birmingham at the min,but we are coming to the end of the powerflushing season....and i used to be a rocket scientist. lol.

 

[GQuigley67]

never tried haggis suprisingly, but i do always wear a kilt and ive got ginger hair

 

[moogwai]

but i do always wear a kilt and ive got ginger hair

text book scotsman,lol

 

[aceservicing]

Radial pipe isolation fog rad penetration , remember from base of rad up to 3 inches is critical even pre dosing . Do not bleed rads unless it's non mobile sludge upper panel cold ( only see this Aprox 8 times ) . With air in upper rad water is more turbulent .

 

[moogwai]

ok so what you are saying is induce air into the top of the rads as to make sure the critical bottom 3" of the rads get flushed only? and i dont understand how you could isolate the radial pipe as this would surely stop the water from travelling around the system to the machine??? Am i correct in what i think you are saying?

 

[Dannypipe]

No sorry bigboy I'm just the finest gas has to offer . I'm generally on my 27th boiler breakdown by 2pm have lunch at 5pm nock off 10pm head back where I'm staying the night hope I don't get a call on the way home . As for powerflushing I'm on 2, 627 and counting with a 100 percent success rate specialising in single pipe systems / microbore all the rubbish no one else wants . B4 this I was an aircraft technician , test pilot .

No way!!? I used to be a test pilot too. What are the chances!