DIY Gas Fitting

[Bernie2]

Hmm!

Gas fitting is part of Plumbing and always has been. Contrary to what people may say it is not a specialist trade at all. The gas fitters started doing domestic central heating not the other way around. The Plumber was installing central heating virtually soon after its invention and a supply of heating component parts where readily available on the market.

The term "central heating engineer" refers to the time when an engineer would have to measure up a job and then go back and cast the parts in iron at the foundry hence the "engineer" and not just heating fitter.

Obviously a Plumber could not make the parts, but shared the same technology and had a bit more specialised Plumbing technology as well. However when parts became freely available the Plumber started to do central heating usually biased more to the standardised parts for domestic heating market than the commercial/industrial both of which sides as well as domestic I have worked on with other Plumbers.

In modern times the "central heating engineer" is usually associated as being the person who does commercial/industrial and only a bit of domestic heating work, the rest of the domestic work is usually done by a Plumber or sometimes specialist heating only company's.

The confusion comes from BG wanting to expand into all kinds of new markets and don't forget their heating engineers fix washing machines and dishwashers as well. I suppose their gas fitters could be called multi skilled.

The reality is everybody is looking toward what ever they can do to earn a crust. The idea you can stick to just one specialist trade is now out dated. That is partly why it all needs opening up.

 

[fuzzy]

Hmm!

Gas fitting is part of Plumbing and always has been. Contrary to what people may say it is not a specialist trade at all. The gas fitters started doing domestic central heating not the other way around. The Plumber was installing central heating virtually soon after its invention and a supply of heating component parts where readily available on the market.

The term "central heating engineer" refers to the time when an engineer would have to measure up a job and then go back and cast the parts in iron at the foundry hence the "engineer" and not just heating fitter.

Obviously a Plumber could not make the parts, but shared the same technology and had a bit more specialised Plumbing technology as well. However when parts became freely available the Plumber started to do central heating usually biased more to the standardised parts for domestic heating market than the commercial/industrial both of which sides as well as domestic I have worked on with other Plumbers.

In modern times the "central heating engineer" is usually associated as being the person who does commercial/industrial and only a bit of domestic heating work, the rest of the domestic work is usually done by a Plumber or sometimes specialist heating only company's.

The confusion comes from BG wanting to expand into all kinds of new markets and don't forget their heating engineers fix washing machines and dishwashers as well. I suppose their gas fitters could be called multi skilled.

The reality is everybody is looking toward what ever they can do to earn a crust. The idea you can stick to just one specialist trade is now out dated. That is partly why it all needs opening up.

Hi bernie, i beg to differ my friend. BG did all the gas, plumbers did plumbing. When they opened up gas fitting to others they created acops as a safe measure. Now the trades are merged somewhat and it will never become a clear line between as it was particulalry because of boilers.
If they are the same trade why is there an NVQ in plumbing and one in gas?

 

[Reg Man]

I differ to: Gas is a different ball game. Technical stuff about flues, combustion , ventilation, Boiler controls ect: One thing I do agree with. Historically plumbing is a very highly skilled job. Unfortunatley the reference to plumbing has gone a little a stray. Plumber is Latin for Lead Worker. How many people calling them selves plumbers can do Lead Work? Both trades are due credit and some of our can diversify into both.

 

[Bernie2]

Ahh! Go on with yer!!

British Gas's job was to make gas and distribute it not fit appliances although they did that also. When the JIB grades first came out in the 70's, BG gas fitters where classed as semi skilled Trained Plumbers a grade below the usual Plumbers Advanced grade, because BG said their job was not as skilled as Plumbers even though both came under the same grading scheme. The BG guys protested like mad about that. So BG said to them, okay fit central heating like Plumbers do and we will give you the Advanced grade. The guys had a rough time until they learnt the ropes of how to do central heating some of my mates helped some of them out.

Also the specialist Plumbing company I worked for, had a Gas fitting division years ago and did sub contract work for BG, as well as all its Plumbers installing all the domestic gas in new builds and refurbs as well as going with the gas guys when there was no Plumbing.

BG was in fact a nationalised company that had formerly been many smaller private companies in point I worked for a company that put the first gas lighting in in Liverpool and that was a Building company with a Plumbing division.

 

[stevejordan]

work on your own home is illeagal unless you are competent
work in someone elses for no gain - competent but not corgi
work for gain - corgi

ITS ABOUT TIME ALL D.I.Y. OUTLETS AND SOME PLUMBING MERCHANTS - START ASKING FOR I.D. (GAS SAFE CARD)
YES I KNOW THIS MAY CAUSE HOME OWNERS SOME INCOVENIANCE ,AS SOME INSTALLERS ARE TO BUSY TO PICK UP, BUT THIS WOULD SURELY CUT OUT SOME OF THE COWBOYS (NOT ALL AS THE FAKE GAS SAFE CARDS ARE OUT THERE

competent =ACS qual[/QUOTE]

 

[Reg Man]

Competence has a deffinition: Someone who has relevant training, qualification and experience. This is usually something tested in court. The gas industry use ACS is proof of competence. This is relied upon because of the systems in place are overseen by UKAS for approved ACS centres carrying out the assessments. This makes it much easier in court, because most people who have not done ACS and stand in the dock, have not got a chance, why are they there in the first place? This could include DIY fitting. So if your a DIY person and you have not gone through ACS, then if the gas work goes badly wrong you will have big problems defending your actions in court.

 

[fuzzy]

Competence has a deffinition: Someone who has relevant training, qualification and experience. This is usually something tested in court. The gas industry use ACS is proof of competence. This is relied upon because of the systems in place are overseen by UKAS for approved ACS centres carrying out the assessments. This makes it much easier in court, because most people who have not done ACS and stand in the dock, have not got a chance, why are they there in the first place? This could include DIY fitting. So if your a DIY person and you have not gone through ACS, then if the gas work goes badly wrong you will have big problems defending your actions in court.

agreed, only exception would be somebody retired who had been a gas engineer all their life and the acs just run out, they may have a claim?

 

[Reg Man]

May be? Case in Norwich recently, involving retired plumber with no registration and no ACS, was prosecuted.

 

[fuzzy]

May be? Case in Norwich recently, involving retired plumber with no registration and no ACS, was prosecuted.

really! was he recently acs qualified? very experienced? i know a X BG trainer who helped write the acs, he now retired and acs ran out, id still trust him before many newly qualified, id say he was competent

 

[Reg Man]

No He was a plumber all his life, but did not hold ACS. ("I've been doing this all my life why should I have some jumped up regulators tell me how to do my job") Typical attitude of someone who thinks, they know it all and can't be taught anything, or someone who has been crap at the job all there life and is frigthened of being exposed?

 

[metaldust9]

dont think ive done anything as hard as this acs, stuff i no and have been doing ages just goes out my head and am durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rabbit in the headlights so why should ilegal people get away with it

 

[fuzzy]

No He was a plumber all his life, but did not hold ACS. ("I've been doing this all my life why should I have some jumped up regulators tell me how to do my job") Typical attitude of someone who thinks, they know it all and can't be taught anything, or someone who has been crap at the job all there life and is frigthened of being exposed?

oh i see, completely different to my example then, no sympathy. some knowledge is often more dangerous than no knowledge

 

[Bernie2]

Interestingly we do not seem to know how many gas related accidents there were before compulsory registration came out.

Has safety improved or become worse due to technical advances making boilers overly complicated and seemingly PCB reliant?

 

[Reg Man]

My personal view is: There were many incidents prior to mandatory gas registration. Then we had de-regulation of British gas which opened up the market to alot more people who were not necessarily gas trained. Additionaly we had problems with little investment into new apprenticeships and training. On the plus side; open flued appliances are becoming a thing of the past and leaps forward in technology of appliances has certainly improved the situation. We have also been subject to proof of competance through ACS, which could only have been a good thing. So on balance the industry is in a much safer place than it could have been. You will notice that not all incidents are caused by installers bad work and many of those which did, are the not so good people, who have ignored the requirements or, had no idear what they were surposed to do. Therefore reinforcing the need for some regulation body to oversee the industry. Unfortunately the new scheme seems more interested in just running a register, rather than leading the industry and it pushes everything else back to various industry bodies to sort out. In my view not the most effective way of moving forward because there are to many bodies with different agenda's, so how are resonable decisions ever going to be made.

 

[Bernie2]

I am still unsure. It seems to me that in the past gas appliances were basically very simple affairs and very easy to maintain. But with the call for more fuel efficiencies it seems complication after complication has been added to the point many boilers now seem to require a CPU and various PCB boards fitted to even get them to go. Some also require expensive and complicated diagnostic equipment to service them.

The problem is, this all makes boilers more difficult for service engineers to really understand in detail. Doesn't this mean the likelihood of more accidents is increased? Also the use of PCB seems to be one in which a new system board comes out every five minutes depending if it can do the job cheaper than the one before. Problem is are they reliable?

I am not a dinosaur wanting got go back to the dark ages, but I do question whether complication if it is not needed makes for safer boilers.

 

[Mick Helpful]

Quite simply if you are competent you can work on your own gas installation. Read regulation 3:

[FONT=&quot]3.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] - (1) No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so.

(2) The employer of any person carrying out such work for that employer, every other employer and self-employed person who has control to any extent of such work and every employer and self-employed person who has required such work to be carried out at any place of work under his control shall ensure that paragraph (1) above is complied with in relation to such work.

(3) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraphs (1) and (2) above and subject to paragraph (4) below, no employer shall allow any of his employees to carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or service pipework and no self-employed person shall carry out any such work, unless the employer or self-employed person, as the case may be, is a member of a class of persons approved for the time being by the Health and Safety Executive for the purposes of this paragraph.[/FONT]

So if you are competent you can do your own work if you are not employed. If you are employed you or you company have to belong to the class of persons refferred to, i.e. are GasSafe registered. Note that if you work for a Company who is registered you don't have to be registered, merely competent. In other words exactly the same as a competent DIYer!!

With regard Bernie2's comment these PCB's are exorbitantly priced and are non-serviceable. Why worry the punter pays! You can buy 4 digital setop boxes for the price of one of them. Some of the boards are reliable but others aren't and with no circuit data fault finding at component level is virtually impossible. The curent regulatory system and training means that most plumbers are merely panel jockeys. Ask GasSafe for a plumber who can fault find pcb's with a duff buck regulator, triac or thyristor costing at the most £1.50 and you'll draw a blank

 

[Reg Man]

Competence? will normaly only be tested in court.

If you have passed ACS, you've prooved competance.

 

[REDSAW]

you cant beat an old bi-plane for reliability.lol.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

you in your own world again red?

 

[fuzzy]

Competence? will normaly only be tested in court.

If you have passed ACS, you've prooved competance.

you can be done for having but not applying competence, so i read in gas engineer mag a couple of months ago!

there are other but more difficult ways of proving competence

 

[Reg Man]

you can be done for having but not applying competence, so i read in gas engineer mag a couple of months ago!

there are other but more difficult ways of proving competence

Your right there: Know loads of people that have done ACS and don't carry this forward to their day to day working practice. This is worse than not knowing what your doing?

 

[adam84]

gas engineers should prove they can do their job and have the knowlege to do it, but the gas industry and in particular the retail side need to step up and take responsibility buy only selling gas critical parts to registered engineers, i was horrified in b+q a couple of weeks ago when i saw a DIY gas fire installation kit consisting of a small coil of 8mm a roll of gas PTFE and a cheap and nasty junior hacksaw, so how as gas engineers are we supposed to enforce safe working practice when companys like b+q sell kits like that to the general public and any other weekend wonder.

 

[fuzzy]

thats terrible, but not illegal unfortunately, you can fit your own gas stuff if your competent

 

[pobsdad]

I'm Gas Safe registered,but might only do a service every 2 or 3 months.After 6 pints at lunch time.Who's to know?Nothings gone bang yet!

 

[pobsdad]

DIY stores justify selling gas fittings by saying that genuine tradespeople buy from them.As opposed to plumbers merchants.

 

[Puddle]

DIY stores justify selling gas fittings by saying that genuine tradespeople buy from them.As opposed to plumbers merchants.

What really bugs me about these stores are that not only do they sell fires and boilers,they sell them incomplete,you see hobs with control knob or burner top missing fires with opened boxes with god knows what missing ect ,they are not removed from shelves but discounted due to missing parts,I have pointed this out sometimes,how dangerous these appliances can be, never mind with bits missing and item is often removed,then next day,there it is again,no doubt after they have checked their profit and loss which it seems is always more important than any safety issues that may arise

imho

 

[Bernie2]

Hmm!

Same old thing, you can buy any kind of knife you like if your over about 16. No harm in that It depends what you do with it afterwards that can be harmful.

Anyone should be able to buy gas fittings anywhere, it is what they do with them that makes the difference. Its a bit like buying Aspirins in a chemist. Should they only be supplied to health professionals? Take enough of many of the medicines on sale in chemists and you can kill yourself and other people just as easily as blowing yourself up or poisoning people with gas.

Anyway if people want to do their own gas fitting they probably will regardless of the law, its illegal to speed but how many do?

Its the people you need to teach about the dangers not ban or restrict gas material sales.

 

[unguided1]

Hmm!

Same old thing, you can buy any kind of knife you like if your over about 16. No harm in that It depends what you do with it afterwards that can be harmful.

Anyone should be able to buy gas fittings anywhere, it is what they do with them that makes the difference. Its a bit like buying Aspirins in a chemist. Should they only be supplied to health professionals? Take enough of many of the medicines on sale in chemists and you can kill yourself and other people just as easily as blowing yourself up or poisoning people with gas.

Anyway if people want to do their own gas fitting they probably will regardless of the law, its illegal to speed but how many do?

Its the people you need to teach about the dangers not ban or restrict gas material sales.

totaly agree, the government banned people from having registered hand guns in this country, hand guns dont kill people, people kill people and since the ban there are more illegal unregistered hand guns on the street.

 

[eco_mark]

Hmm!

Same old thing, you can buy any kind of knife you like if your over about 16. No harm in that It depends what you do with it afterwards that can be harmful.

Anyone should be able to buy gas fittings anywhere, it is what they do with them that makes the difference. Its a bit like buying Aspirins in a chemist. Should they only be supplied to health professionals? Take enough of many of the medicines on sale in chemists and you can kill yourself and other people just as easily as blowing yourself up or poisoning people with gas.

Anyway if people want to do their own gas fitting they probably will regardless of the law, its illegal to speed but how many do?

Its the people you need to teach about the dangers not ban or restrict gas material sales.

Totally disagree, and your analogies are wrong! Aspirin are not a controlled substance, but something like clinical grade heroin is. Can anyone walk into a chemists and buy that heroin? No. The reason is that it needs to be prescribed by a competent person.

If gas works can only be done by a competent person, and there are regulations in place to define what a competent person is, then there's no reason a non-competent person should be able to buy those things. It's not just about protecting people from themselves (the DIY'er who might think they can install their own gas boiler) but also unsuspecting people from dodgy cowboys.

The problem I see is that the definition of competent is open to interpretation in court and isn't as simple as 'is on the gas safe register'. If it was that simple then anyone not on the register shouldn't have a need to buy those things.

 

[fuzzy]

Totally disagree, and your analogies are wrong! Aspirin are not a controlled substance, but something like clinical grade heroin is. Can anyone walk into a chemists and buy that heroin? No. The reason is that it needs to be prescribed by a competent person.

If gas works can only be done by a competent person, and there are regulations in place to define what a competent person is, then there's no reason a non-competent person should be able to buy those things. It's not just about protecting people from themselves (the DIY'er who might think they can install their own gas boiler) but also unsuspecting people from dodgy cowboys.

The problem I see is that the definition of competent is open to interpretation in court and isn't as simple as 'is on the gas safe register'. If it was that simple then anyone not on the register shouldn't have a need to buy those things.

but there are situations when registration or even ACS is not required so how could it be controlled? Factory work is exempt for example, you can work on gas if competent, how do you check for competence as a shop owner? for example a family friend of mine worked in gas for 50 years, he taught at Bg and helped set up acops and ACS, his acs is out of date, is he competent?

 

[eco_mark]

for example a family friend of mine worked in gas for 50 years, he taught at Bg and helped set up acops and ACS, his acs is out of date, is he competent?

I totally agree, which is why my last sentence was:

"the definition of competent is open to interpretation in court and isn't as simple as 'is on the gas safe register'. If it was that simple then anyone not on the register shouldn't have a need to buy those things."

I think it should be controlled, and limited to competent people. But how you define a competent person though needs to be more than 'paid for a test this year'. As for how that could be enforced, no idea.

 

[fuzzy]

sorry, missed that bit

i dont see the issue tbh with selling them to anyone

 

[Bernie2]

Aspirin can kill its a mistake to think it can't, Heroin is class A but not addictive funnily enough.

Are we to see electrical Kitchen appliance sales restricted to Part P sparks only?

Competence has not been tested that it is true, but I doubt any court would say an ex Gas fitter was incompetent.

If people are educated to the proper use of gas they probably will not DIY unless competent in their own homes.

Lets be honest you do not get many people wanting to fly aeroplanes without training they know its dangerous.

 

[eco_mark]

If people are educated to the proper use of gas they probably will not DIY unless competent in their own homes.

Ah, there's the problem
Educate the masses? Never happen!

 

[GQuigley67]

Aspirin can kill its a mistake to think it can't, Heroin is class A but not addictive funnily enough.

Are we to see electrical Kitchen appliance sales restricted to Part P sparks only?

Competence has not been tested that it is true, but I doubt any court would say an ex Gas fitter was incompetent.

If people are educated to the proper use of gas they probably will not DIY unless competent in their own homes.

Lets be honest you do not get many people wanting to fly aeroplanes without training they know its dangerous.

please explain

 

[eco_mark]

please explain

There's a commonly held belief that pure heroin isn't addictive, and it is only once it hits the streets and has other stuff mixed in that it becomes nasty. This isn't true but heroin isn't the 'one hit and you're hooked' kind of drug it is often made out to be.
I think this belief lives in the same place as the belief that a duck's quack doesn't have an echo

 

[GQuigley67]

I don't believe for one second that after one fix your addicted, but to say that heroin is not addictive when it clearly is, is misleading. It is said that nicotine is more addictive than heroin, but if you know any smack heads then you would know that they are addicted and go to extremes to get their next fix

 

[Bernie2]

Hmm!

The information that it is none addictive came from a television program that interviewed medical people and it was they said it was not addictive not me. Of course if we have any doctors reading the mails we may get a better view. Apparently the addiction is the risk involved in the life style of Heroine use, not the drug itself, I suppose you could say they where an "Adrenalin junky" not a Heroin addict. But being an ordinary man it seems to be all the same to me.

 

[dmrltd]

Isn't it gas safe now and not corgi?

 

[AWheating]

gas safe register has replace the corgi one.

 

[david williams]

define competent,every one defines it differently,even our courts cant decide.having every qualification in the book does not make you competent.

 

[yorkshiregasman]

Have had some "interesting" conversations about what competent is! Gas Safe tell me that it means having the qualifications and being able to demonstrate your application of the regulations in a safe and efficient way.

 

[gazultra]

Hi there looking for a bit of advice spent many years working for a heating company and had relevant gas qualifications to do my job CCN1 CEN1. For other reasons i retrained as an electrical engineer. Now obviously my qualifications have run out and I think only my CCN1 is in date.

What I am trying to ask is I want to put a combi boiler in my own home, I believe I am more than compotent to do so. just wondering how go about getting someone to commison it, will that need done? Or could that be part of a service. I am having nightmares over a jobsworth coming round and slating my work!!

I'm pretty wise to fitting a boiler and it's a pretty simple job job with 22mm gas supply, waste for condensate, flue hole already there. so obviously moneys tight and want to do it myself!

Anyone fancy keeping me right and telling me what I can and can't do. sorry if this has been asked a million times before!

 

[Deleted member 2053]

This question is becoming increasingly complex to answer because of issues like adequate system flushing, flue gas analysis and part 'P' regulations. There definitely are some GSR engineers who will let you do the bits you can, and do the other bits like flush, gas connection and commissioning themselves. However as this is a major share of the work and requires the specialist (and expensive) kit, you are unlikely to save much. With reference to your comments about 'Jobsworths' you have to remember that the guy who signs off for you is putting his livelihood on the line if you make a mistake that he doesn't pick up on.

 

[Mike Jackson]

Most engineers that I know won't commission a boiler that has been fitted by a non registered individual. When you sign off the boiler install you're even signing off that it's been fixed to the wall correctly.

I'll insist on hanging the boiler, fitting the flue, condense and gas myself at the very minimum before I sign off a boiler install.

 

[fuzzy]

Hi there looking for a bit of advice spent many years working for a heating company and had relevant gas qualifications to do my job CCN1 CEN1. For other reasons i retrained as an electrical engineer. Now obviously my qualifications have run out and I think only my CCN1 is in date.

What I am trying to ask is I want to put a combi boiler in my own home, I believe I am more than compotent to do so. just wondering how go about getting someone to commison it, will that need done? Or could that be part of a service. I am having nightmares over a jobsworth coming round and slating my work!!

I'm pretty wise to fitting a boiler and it's a pretty simple job job with 22mm gas supply, waste for condensate, flue hole already there. so obviously moneys tight and want to do it myself!

Anyone fancy keeping me right and telling me what I can and can't do. sorry if this has been asked a million times before!

the regs state you can install if competent to do so, if you feel you are competent and can justify yourself in court if the need arises then make your choice

 

[rodders]

the regs state you can install if competent to do so, if you feel you are competent and can justify yourself in court if the need arises then make your choice

This is not the full story. The regs do state if you are competent, from the Gas Regs...

PART B 3. (1) No Person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so.

BUT it goes on to say

PART B 3 (3) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraphs (1) and (2) above ... is a member of a class of persons approved for the time being by the health and saftey executive for the purposes of this paragraph.

To me, that's saying you have to be fully registered with gas safe (a way of proving you are in that class of persons approved) and have all other relevant qualifications (Part P, Part L, CENWAT, CPA1 [from April 2012 I believe?] (which ever ones you need for the job), etc) and have good practical experience.

I think you would have a hard time in court saying that you feel competent!

Just be careful you don't drop yourself in it & get a gas safe engineer in to do the work.

Thanks

 

[ryangas]

In regards to competency with gas an individual is only competent if they have been deemed competent by a governing body
Gas Installations in a individuals home if carried out by an unqualified homeowner are still classed as illegal installations but these would only come to light if there was a unsafe situation or incident.

 

[ryangas]

Hi there looking for a bit of advice spent many years working for a heating company and had relevant gas qualifications to do my job CCN1 CEN1. For other reasons i retrained as an electrical engineer. Now obviously my qualifications have run out and I think only my CCN1 is in date.

What I am trying to ask is I want to put a combi boiler in my own home, I believe I am more than compotent to do so. just wondering how go about getting someone to commison it, will that need done? Or could that be part of a service. I am having nightmares over a jobsworth coming round and slating my work!!

I'm pretty wise to fitting a boiler and it's a pretty simple job job with 22mm gas supply, waste for condensate, flue hole already there. so obviously moneys tight and want to do it myself!

Anyone fancy keeping me right and telling me what I can and can't do. sorry if this has been asked a million times before!

When it comes to gas in my opinion a jobsworth is the best type of gas enginer always to the letter with maximum professionalism if you are as you say competent a gas engineer would not be able to slate your work as it would be to the same standard
im not saying you dont know how to complete the task but i do belive that a little knowlege is far more dangerous that none

Thanks Ryan

 

[fuzzy]

This is not the full story. The regs do state if you are competent, from the Gas Regs...

PART B 3. (1) No Person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so.

BUT it goes on to say

PART B 3 (3) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraphs (1) and (2) above ... is a member of a class of persons approved for the time being by the health and saftey executive for the purposes of this paragraph.

To me, that's saying you have to be fully registered with gas safe (a way of proving you are in that class of persons approved) and have all other relevant qualifications (Part P, Part L, CENWAT, CPA1 [from April 2012 I believe?] (which ever ones you need for the job), etc) and have good practical experience.

I think you would have a hard time in court saying that you feel competent!

Just be careful you don't drop yourself in it & get a gas safe engineer in to do the work.

Thanks

second bit refers to financial gain, for example if you run a business or are self employed.

so regardless you can work on gas if competent to do so, you just cannot run as a business