Essex flange

[dhes]

I'm about to fit an Essex flange to a HWC for a 2 bar universal Monsoon pump in the attic. Does any one know how close to the inside of the top of the HWC the feeder pipe should go to maximize water temperature but minimize pulling in air. The flange will be sited 60mm below the joint between the dome top and the vertical side wall. I 've decide to fit an Essex flange to comply with installation recommendations from pump manufacture, in case there are any problems in the future.

 

[SimonJohns]

I would recommend you fit a surrey

You stand a high chance of damaging the cylinder. And there's a higher chance of leaks

Surrey is only going to damage cylinder if you cross thread it

 

[dhes]

Yes, I looked at Surrey flanges and they look a lot easier to fit, but Stuart turner were adamant that if I was going to feed a pump in the attic i should get the supply from the side of the HWC via a Essex. Seems a total pain but I am concerned that if there is a problem with the pump they will just say the feed hasn't been installed correctly

 

[Best]

Yes, as said, use a Surrey or Warix flange screwed into top of cylinder if it is also recommended by pump manufacturer. The Essex flanges are terrible things & the heat, especially being near to top of cylinder will harden the white rubber washers as brittle as a biscuit & they leak sooner or later.
Stuart Turner must be worried about air being drawn in the cylinder vent etc.
A cylinder bought with an extra 1" tapping on the side would have been best.
It is possible to use a brass 22mm tank connector for same job, by boring a hole in cyl exact size of tank fitting & fitting it via the immersion tapping (with immersion removed) using a piece of wire through both holes & pushing the wire into the tank fitting & letting it slide down inside cyl & the threads through the hole. The fitting can be sealed with good fibre washers or other means.
Highly unorthodox, but it will never give trouble if done properly.

 

[tamz]

Essex flanges are simple to fit and although they may eventually start to weep from the washer this will not happen for a good many years. Do NOT use jointing compounds.
An essex is always a better pump connection than a surrey.
Remember to cut the pipe at an angle or kick it upwards inside the cylinder.

 

[Ray Stafford]

A cylinder bought with an extra 1" tapping on the side would have been best.

A question for all you techie types.

I had always thought that a secondary tapping was the ideal solution. I assumed that the major problem was air being drawn from the open vent.

However, the pump manufacturers also worry about air drawn from inside the cylinder - that air bubbles form around the edge of the cylinder and rise up the walls. Hence the point of a Surrey flange or a non-stop essex flange with the pipe pushed through to the middle of the cylinder where there are no air bubbles. This is the line taken by Salamander - link here

Mira publish a diagram (link here) of an DHW draw off at 45 degrees from vertical, with the pump teed off from the lower face of the angle. They show an installation with a secondary tapping, but with a big cross through it.

Stuart Turner (link here) show a whole range of possibilities, including all the above, and including a separate tapping/conventional essex flange.

Presumably all of them are trying to solve the same problem - keeping air out of their pumps.

My question is - for those of you working in the real world, not on in the perfect environment of a test bench - which solution actually works best in your experience? Or am I being a dumb merchant and missing something obvious?

 

[kay-jay]

A question for all you techie types.

I had always thought that a secondary tapping was the ideal solution. I assumed that the major problem was air being drawn from the open vent.

However, the pump manufacturers also worry about air drawn from inside the cylinder - that air bubbles form around the edge of the cylinder and rise up the walls. Hence the point of a Surrey flange or a non-stop essex flange with the pipe pushed through to the middle of the cylinder where there are no air bubbles. This is the line taken by Salamander - link here

Mira publish a diagram (link here) of an DHW draw off at 45 degrees from vertical, with the pump teed off from the lower face of the angle. They show an installation with a secondary tapping, but with a big cross through it.

Stuart Turner (link here) show a whole range of possibilities, including all the above, and including a separate tapping/conventional essex flange.

Presumably all of them are trying to solve the same problem - keeping air out of their pumps.

My question is - for those of you working in the real world, not on in the perfect environment of a test bench - which solution actually works best in your experience? Or am I being a dumb merchant and missing something obvious?

I always tee downwards off the horizontal from top of cylinder. Aqualisa reckon its preferable to ALL OTHER connections

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[BLOD]

I always tee downwards off the horizontal from top of cylinder. Aqualisa reckon its preferable to ALL OTHER connections

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

I usually do this as well

 

[paulyoung666]

As a non plumber i have just fitted a Warwick flange to my cylinder , I thought about fitting an Essex flange and chickened out although I am sure I could have done it , upshot is , my shower now works as it should have done in the first place ......

 

[Best]

As a non plumber i have just fitted a Warwick flange to my cylinder , I thought about fitting an Essex flange and chickened out although I am sure I could have done it , upshot is , my shower now works as it should have done in the first place ......

You have chosen an easy option & why not? No damage to cylinder, no rubber joints to decay, no harm done!

 

[chris watkins]

As I have posted before Mira commissioned some extensive research, after years of different people manufacturing many suggested solutions to a problem that just would not be solved (otherwise we would all be fitting just one of these)
As I understand it, problem has always been oxygen driven off when the water is heated accumulates on the inside surfaces of the cylinders & pipework & as soon as the pumps were switch on this is drawn into the pump & leads to cavitation (which Mira also explain in an understandable way) which destroys the impellers.
The best solution was found to be the use of 28mm out of the top of the cylinder at 45deg angle, with a air free hot pump supply taken off half way along also on the 45, as now shown by more & more manufacturers. The working principle is that any air bubbles travel up on the upper inside of the vent & because it is a larger pipe the velocities are lower allowing the to carry on rising up to the open vent. The logic is sound & it works on mine.
Sorry Ray but if it works & catches on, you may not sell as many Essex, Surrey, Warwick etc etc on the plus side sales of 28mm 45's & pipe will increase.
Stuart may suggest using the flanges but they would not have a problem & neither would you if it is done in a different manor.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Sorry Ray but if it works & catches on, you may not sell as many Essex, Surrey, Warwick etc etc on the plus side sales of 28mm 45's & pipe will increase.

Hi Chris

I remember going on a Mira course recommending the 45 degree draw off many years ago. Just to give you an idea of how long ago, they were using a 723 valve on the demo rig, and I had a full head of hair and my wedding suit still fitted. Damn thing shrunk soon after

Essex flanges were a fairly common sale back then, but I don't think that Surrey or Warix flanges would have been around.

Ray

 

[chris watkins]

723, well blow me you are old Ray. LOL !

 

[Ray Stafford]

723, well blow me you are old Ray. LOL !

I am tempted to "like" this post, just so I can have the satisfaction of "unliking it" again!

 

[chris watkins]

Thats kind of counterintuitive Ray, but I can see the self satisfaction one could gain, does that make me old too ??

 

[Ray Stafford]

Thats kind of counterintuitive Ray, but I can see the self satisfaction one could gain, does that make me old too ??

Just tried it. It felt good! LOL.

 

[chris watkins]

What, did she come in to wish you good night ??? Oh no sorry the satisfaction of the older man.
I had better stop, we don't want you getting to out of hand it's another busy day tomorrow.
Night, night Ray

 

[stevetheplumber]

didnt mira used to be called lennard ? ive not had any problem fitting essex flanges and ive taken a few cylinders out where the cylinder had failled before the flange

 

[tamz]

I was just going to say that Steve. Was it a mira or a Leonard 723? Showing our age now :smile:

 

[Best]

Just to refresh the minds of the really old guys here:- Leonard G72 was the previous name of what became the Mira 722. Still out there & all parts.
Sadly I didn't need to google it, as I am old enough to know them! :smile:

 

[tamz]

Even the new miras are based on the same design which must be over 40 years old.

 

[Best]

Even the new miras are based on the same design which must be over 40 years old.

More than 40 years the G72/722. Think they are 1960s & went right up to 1984 ish, then the plastic fronted 723 came out which had similar works. All credit to Mira, they last well & you can buy any parts.

 

[tamz]

We had a Leonard shower in our house when i was a kid (we were posh) much the same design as the 722 but a bit bigger. It had hot cold and tepid on it! I think my da nicked it from a school or somewhere.