Unsafe notices

[plumbdoctor]

Seem to be handing them out like sweets all for flues not sealed both sides of brickwork and brackets not screwed , can't see the big deal if both rubbers are fitted or it is sealed and they haven't screwed the bracket to the flue that go straight through the wall on old glow worm and vaillants, won't come apart ? Your views guys ? Having to issue at risks every day grrr

 

[Rickster123]

If its use the screws I'd tend to just screw it. Saves the paperwork and grief.

 

[Ermintrude]

U can't choose what you do, that's the point of GSIUR and GIUSP . U either notify or make good . Technically shouldn't u notify then make good though??

 

[Roger Welton]

Takes longer to write out paper work and explain to cust than to rectify for instances mentioned above, unless in 50th floor flat or other such exception.

 

[AWheating]

flue needs sealing outside as a min. Screws needed if required by manufacturer. Some manufacturers dont request screws at bracket and some flue joints so it cant be a issue really? if the flue supported and fitted as manufacturer requires. As others have stated it sometimes takes less time to put it right then fill out the paperwork.

Your company may not want you to put right tho? as it may get paid extra for rhis work.

 

[stevetheplumber]

pocket full of 13mm self drilling wafer head drywall screws and a impact driver 4 screws takes less than a minute easier than writing it up
but if you wish to be pedantic youve now got to fail it for having been modified as the screws are not as supplied by manufacturer

 

[Nostrum]

Apply common sense and you can't go far wrong.

N.C.S - something should be done but is not or the regulations have changed since it was installed. There is very little or no chance that it will ever cause an unsafe situation but you are highlighting it to the client.

A.R - there is a possibility that the fault could pose a danger but currently it is not.

I.D - its dangerous in its current state and needs immediate attention.

So my opinion is that a flue that is rock solid and screwed together, but doesn't have the correct amount of support would be n.c.s if you are sure it won't fall apart without someone taking a baseball bat to it. British gas would A.R it based on the unsafe procedures but they don't go into enough detail for individual cases IMO.

Flues near openings seems to be an exception to the rule in my opinion. Within the specified distance to a window or opening is N.C.S yet surely the distance is there for a reason and given the right conditions you could get P.O.C in the property which would make it I.D so surely that's A.R?

 

[plumbdoctor]

Agree with all posts but I'm subbing for a company that won't pay me for the above so it's paperwork galore ! Are we agreeing that even if it has rubber collar on flue outside but is not sealed underneath it's ar ? Even though there is no chance of poc's entering the building but over kill I'd say

 

[rabbitsaddle]

After a little issue from the " Turn up , turn off " boys ( BG ) I sought some specific advice on this issue from WB ,,,,
The weather seal provided with a horizontal flue kit is a sufficient seal, the manual will also state to make good of the whole, but this is down to interoperation, in terms of for example if a larger bore hole was drilled, by “making good” the flue you could patch the hole up.

You would need to ask the engineer why the collar provided is not sufficient so that we can try to come up with a solution.

The flue is designed to be fitted from inside, which will also confirm that any external work is not required.

 

[Dotty]

So basically you've an unsealed flue. BG have shut you down and you're looking for us to reinforce that which you've been told by WB so you can beat BG into turning you back on again?

Won't happen.

You need an independant GSR to take a look.

 

[tamz]

Worcesters, Vaillants and a couple of others state in their MI's that the supplied collars are sufficient seal.
No one uses the brain they were born with anymore as apparently there isn't a manual for it :wink:

 

[rabbitsaddle]

Fraid not sir ,,,, We are GSR , a project recently completed for a local HA had a property become void shortly after the install , BG came out to do a CP12 on change of tenancy . The lad core drilled the flue with approx 10mm clearance , fitted weathering collars as per MI . As we all know horizontal flues are generally designed so as to be fitted from inside the property ( as in a block of flats scenario ) . As is evident here its sometimes difficult to get a definitive answer so thought I'd consult the manufacturer ,,,,,,,, problem ?

 

[Dotty]

Fraid not sir ,,,, We are GSR , a project recently completed for a local HA had a property become void shortly after the install , BG came out to do a CP12 on change of tenancy . The lad core drilled the flue with approx 10mm clearance , fitted weathering collars as per MI . As we all know horizontal flues are generally designed so as to be fitted from inside the property ( as in a block of flats scenario ) . As is evident here its sometimes difficult to get a definitive answer so thought I'd consult the manufacturer ,,,,,,,, problem ?

I do when you give me attitude.

 

[Ermintrude]

Why would a HA pay BG to CP12 Or void check?? Smells a little to mee!

 

[rabbitsaddle]

I do when you give me attitude.

Sorry ???
I was simply trying to be helpful , I think if you read your initial reply the attitudes yours ,,,,,

 

[tamz]

Why would a HA pay BG to CP12 Or void check?? Smells a little to mee!

PH Jones do some council stuff up this way. Same company with a different colour van.

 

[rabbitsaddle]

Why would a HA pay BG to CP12 Or void check?? Smells a little to mee!

Has to be done on change of tenancy .

 

[rabbitsaddle]

Why would a HA pay BG to CP12 Or void check?? Smells a little to mee!

& why wouldnt they ? or am I missing something

 

[Dotty]

Sorry ???
I was simply trying to be helpful , I think if you read your initial reply the attitudes yours ,,,,,

I'm one of the moderators on this forum with the responsibility to ensure the safety of ALL members, gsr, non gsr and the public alike. Had you begun with "I'm a gsr and this is what I've found....." you'd have received a whole other response.

Now I need you to increase your post count to 10+ then send a PM (Private Message) with your gsr details to either Gas man - View Profile: gas man - Plumbing Forum | Plumbing Advice | Plumbers Forums | A forum for plumbers advice in the UK or Redsaw - View Profile: REDSAW - Plumbing Forum | Plumbing Advice | Plumbers Forums | A forum for plumbers advice in the UK who will check you and then give you access to the gsr private forum.

 

[rabbitsaddle]

Cheers ,,,, & I'm sorry that the format of my original post wasn't explicit enough . This is my first post on here as you know ,,,, & I think my trepidation was justified :teeth_smile:

 

[jase158]

The issue is as said before, is the flue supported, my gas inspector said Wb say the rubber grommet is fine but if there is too much movement, this is dangerous. If it is sealed from outside and there is very little movement then fine, otherwise it is ar/Id. I personally wouldn't care if company told me to ar a flue for missing screw, I would stick one in, no way I feel right turning off a boiler for 1 screw. My general rule of thumb is look for the immediately dangerous to turn off. Ar is usually a quick fix and NSC so down to customer

 

[Ermintrude]

About BG was cost.... Sure HA could find more cost effective way to manage its estate?

 

[rabbitsaddle]

I think they agree too . I might have mislead slightly . I said a local HA , its actually a national ( Best not to name ) but the project was local . I believe it was a national agreement made a couple of years ago to cover service / breakdown / void checks . I think next year when its up for renewal the preference is to go back to regional agreements with local companies .

 

[kirkgas]

Why would a HA pay BG to CP12 Or void check?? Smells a little to mee!

BG have hundreds of properties on contract for HA's, they are just a gas contractor like the rest of us

 

[Ermintrude]

BG have hundreds of properties on contract for HA's, they are just a gas contractor like the rest of us

Ridiculously expensive and red tape galore. Thought outsourcing was supposed to save money and improve service ?

 

[AWheating]

wb and a few others may state the rubber is a good enough seal, but the also suggest the flue is sealed correctly from the inside using sand and cement or expanding foam.

unless the manufacturers state in writing it can be done then it must be sealed. I have attended 2 boilers this year, one a vokera boiler that had both been AR'd by the manufacturers engineer for mot being patched up outside with sand and cement.

as mentioned by others BG has several smaller companies like ph jones that do large HA and council service and main contracts. The reason why the are not rebranded as BG is because it would increase these companies overheads and running costs which would make competing for such work alot harder with the small profit margins.

 

[rabbitsaddle]

I think its to do with centralised procurement teams in these large organisations . They try these things ( National agreements ) thinking it'll reduce work ( & staffing levels ) at local level . Costs a fortune to find out it doesn't work & then go back to how they did things originally.

( Oh & I'm only trying to get my post count up :speechless: )

 

[rabbitsaddle]

wb and a few others may state the rubber is a good enough seal, but the also suggest the flue is sealed correctly from the inside using sand and cement or expanding foam.

unless the manufacturers state in writing it can be done then it must be sealed. I have attended 2 boilers this year, one a vokera boiler that had both been AR'd by the manufacturers engineer for mot being patched up outside with sand and cement.

My original post was an email I managed to obtain from WB for that exact reason

 

[Ermintrude]

I'm a g8 believer in spam or repeat posts to bumper ur count!! ( think There is a league system? I'm in vax conference div 6 one up from bottom.)

 

[AWheating]

wb have a techcial bulletin and a youtube video about this. no need to email them to ask.

 

[rabbitsaddle]

wb have a techcial bulletin and a youtube video about this. no need to email them to ask.

Cheers , I knew the answer , just wanted it in writing :6:

 

[rabbitsaddle]

unless the manufacturers state in writing it can be done then it must be sealed. I have attended 2 boilers this year, one a vokera boiler that had both been AR'd by the manufacturers engineer for mot being patched up outside with sand and cement


​& what about a horizontal flue through a pitched , tiled roof ?

 

[AWheating]

what about it?

 

[rabbitsaddle]

Just referring to the sand / cement thing . I kinda think we're agreeing ( with the youtube thing ) Are we not supposed to make engineering judgements ( obviously within the regs ) In a situation like this ( tiled roof ) we're happy to rely on mechanical seals as we are with a vertical flue but a simple ' thro the wall ' set up the rubber seals aren't sufficient .

 

[tamz]

Ifyou wanted to be pedantic you could AR every vertical flue in the country on a slate or tile roof.
Roofs are not sealed. They are designed to allow free flow of air through the slates, tiles or what ever to ventilate the roofspace which means they also allow free flow of poc's into the roofspace.
It could start getting (even more) ridiculous.