Is this work acceptable (pics)? Central heating system

[mountainman]

The plumber we've know for years played the devil's advocate when I spoke to him - no clips is fine, no insulation is fine, speedfit in concrete is fine, no ducting over the plastic in concrete is fine, not recommending a two pipe system - well he'd look like he was trying to get extra work. One pipes can work fine.
I guess he does not want to get involved in this.

Sorry mate that is all BS, every word of it.
Made all the worse as you've known the plumber for years.

 

[wheeto]

Sorry mate that is all BS, every word of it.
Made all the worse as you've known the plumber for years.

I agree completely. I expect you occasionally have to "bend" one of those rules, but all of them? In one job? Where doing it properly looks, from the photos, like a feasible option? No.

 

[fuzzy]

id dig it up and do it properly mate. forget the builder, you may end up out of pocket as youll have to pay twice but its worth it to get the job done right

 

[Koogatubac]

Ive worked with speedfit for a number of years. Personally HATE plastics, however everyones using them and wants it for ease and price.

Regarding fittings i havnt seen people state is they have a small tolerance before they leak. Think its 10/15 degree then they will leak.

Hate the stuff and hate new plumbing. Prefer the old fashioned way even though im a 'new age' plumber. Cant beat soldering and copper!!

 

[alunmorris]

Oh dear. I take it that this builder was the cheapest estimate for the works? Them TRV's are not for one pipe systems, I just hope for your sake this 'plumber' hasn't touched any of the gas work!!!!!

The TRVs are altecnic ecocal 200445 LTC. Are these suitable for one pipe?

The plumber has finished. The system is leaking in 4 places and was at 0.6bar when I got there. One rad did not heat - needed bleeding. A job for the client these days.

 

[Phil]

The TRVs are altecnic ecocal 200445 LTC. Are these suitable for one pipe?

The plumber has finished. The system is leaking in 4 places and was at 0.6bar when I got there. One rad did not heat - needed bleeding. A job for the client these days.

He's not finished then, do all rads get hot?

Also on the subject of dry lining around the shower mixer valve, is he planning of tanking/waterproofing this or is he tiling straight on standard £6.50 a sheet plasterboard? if so I see another disaster looming.

 

[alunmorris]

Also on the subject of dry lining around the shower mixer valve, is he planning of tanking/waterproofing this or is he tiling straight on standard £6.50 a sheet plasterboard? if so I see another disaster looming.

Unless he is so skilled he can tile with a bargepole in his mitt, he will not be tiling. Thanks for the tip. I shall do it myself.

 

[Phil]

Unless he is so skilled he can tile with a bargepole in his mitt, he will not be tiling. Thanks for the tip. I shall do it myself.

Has he not quoted for tiling?

 

[jtsplumbing]

Plumber has a van with name on it ! any phone number ?? how meny times do you see these shaby old vans with somthing on the side claiming to be somthing !! As the old saying go's , It say's whisky on buses , but they dont sell it !

 

[Carl86]

altecnic ecocal 200445 LTC - I dont think these are even Bi-directional never mind having to cope with that one piper thats been chucked in, refering to the manfactures installation instructions.

'The Straight ECOCAL ® valve is specifically designed for installation on the flow pipe only. The straight lockshield valve is specificaly designed for installation on the return pipe only'

 

[Dannypipe]

altecnic ecocal 200445 LTC - I dont think these are even Bi-directional never mind having to cope with that one piper thats been chucked in, refering to the manfactures installation instructions.

'The Straight ECOCAL ® valve is specifically designed for installation on the flow pipe only. The straight lockshield valve is specificaly designed for installation on the return pipe only'

It gets worse and worse!!

 

[Phil]

This is unbelievable, wrong in so many ways.

 

[Blake]

Print this off and get your builder to read it:

http://www.johnguest.co.uk/Home/literature-downloads/UK-Literature/DIY-Installation-Manual.aspx

Manufacturer clearly states not to bury in concrete and to clip to prevent stress. I would then ask him to leave and get someone in who is competent otherwise the longer it goes on the more it will cost you to put right what is wrong.

 

[alunmorris]

<pic of speedfit half in concrete>

This is unbelievable, wrong in so many ways.

I just don't understand why they didn't simply blank off an inch either side of fitting to leave it concrete free. That would not cause a problem with the carpet fitting.
Will I have to drain the system to drop the rad to paint behind?

 

[Blake]

Yeah you will need to isolate the valves both ends, drain and remove rad.

 

[alunmorris]

altecnic ecocal 200445 LTC - I dont think these are even Bi-directional never mind having to cope with that one piper thats been chucked in, refering to the manfactures installation instructions.

'The Straight ECOCAL ® valve is specifically designed for installation on the flow pipe only. The straight lockshield valve is specificaly designed for installation on the return pipe only'

The angled ones used are bi-directional.
I phoned Altecnic - they say the Ecocal TRVs are suitable for one pipe use.

 

[Carl86]

The angled ones used are bi-directional.
I phoned Altecnic - they say the Ecocal TRVs are suitable for one pipe use.

Ah I just typed in 200445 LTC, they must have the same PDF file for all the valves and stipulate only the straight angle ones are specified for a flow pipe and return pipe for TRV/Locksheild. On the whole there so many things wrong before water even hits these valves I think thats the least of your worries sadly, with the way that speed fits been buried in concrete as well as other issues.

Still cant understand why a one pipe system has been installed either if every thing was ripped out to renew, only time I have botherd with them was ripping them out to replace for a two pipe system one dedicated to return and the other flow. Its like me scrapping a lada ive had for years(if it even lasted that long doubt it lol) then buying another lada, when id be far better updating to something more reliable and economical in the long run but with the way this has been installed no matter what was put in its just a mish mash of problems so you are always going to be sitting in a lada. I do hope you are able to sort this problem out with the people who put this in alunmorris.

Mind i meen no disrespect when I compare this install to a lada car, at the end of the day this is your home and you deserve things to be done properly if you have parted with cash especcialy if this was based on reccomendations that you trusted.

 

[AWheating]

Got to say somthing here matey ,first thing is that speed fit used on combi boilers is a no no because the fitting draw air in which in turn reduces the pressure in the system. Really you should have used HEP or polly plumb(the cheaper HEP).
Secondly someone once told me that if you connect copper into a plastic fitting (HEP,Speedfit,polly plumb) the copper over time corrodes the rubber washer inside the fitting causing it to leak.
For me it copper everytime. Copper look class when you have finished if you know how to use it.
Then again time is money!

Speedfit is fine on a combi if fitted correctly and barrier pipe is used as with other manufactures. Poly Plumb and Hep20 are both good alternatives to speedfit, me personally think poly plumb is the better of these two makes. As regards copper corroding rubber o rings i would ignore everything that person tells you in the future LOL.

 

[AWheating]

one pipe trv's cost around £40-£60 each they are very common in commerical installs as they still fit one pipe systems in these types on buildings, they have a full flow rate through the valve to work on a one pipe correctly. This said standard trv can work on a one pipe but not so well and can cause alot of balancing issues.

an orginal one pipe system will work fine on a new boiler but if its been altered or replace it should be upgraded to a 2 pipe system especially if no sweep tees are installed. The plastic pipework should be supported every 300mm under the floor to stop undue stress on pipe and fittings as per manufactures instructions. The heating pipework does not need to be lagged but its good practice to.

there should als0 be no plastic fittings in the screeded floor.

 

[petercj]

Like it or not, Speed Fit is the pipework of the future because of: a/ the ever increasing rise in the price of copper; b/ the ease of fitting - which requires less skill; and c/, the time saved over the use of copper: being three factors that make it a cheaper option.

Seems to me (and this thread is a good example) that Speed Fit has got a bad name in some quarters because it's sometimes used by people who really don't know what they are doing. The fact that it's easy to use makes it readily available to misuse and abuse by people who shouldn't be doing the job in the first place. Apparently, the misuse of pipe without a barrier got the product off to a bad start in the first place. The grab washers used in Speed Fit have been used for many, many years in other areas of engineering, and they are an absolute swine to get off when it's not possible to use a release tool.

As far as I can see, the true test of Speed Fit will be the longevity of the O rings - the biggest risk being that market competition will lead to lowering the quality of them in some brands, which will be an absolute nightmare for the technology generally.

Like so many things over the past 30 years, advances in technology lead to de-skilling and horrific cases of incorrect application, but it's not always the fault of the product itself.

The term apprenticeship has become meaningless in the UK, and can refer to a few weeks training in twiddling your thumbs and shelf-stacking as a form of cheap labour. The risks associated with working with gas, and electricty plus water, have probably served to hold back the changes in the related industries more than others, some of which have seen massive de-skilling through advanced specialisation, for example in the motor trade, where things like brake pads/shoes, exhausts, tyres, various accessories, and servicing, are now more likely to be done by fitters with limited skills, than by fully trained mechanics. Even things like engine tuning and diagnostics have become so technical and specialised that some conventionally trained mechanics struggle to understand it.

More and more products made using cheap labour abroad, and the increasing search for cheap labour at home, is the way of the future, unfortunately.

But fear not folks, we now have Dave Cameron and his trusty friend Lord Coe to show us the way forward!!!

Your kids may not know the difference between a nut, a bolt, and a screw, but as long as they can throw a javelin, they'll never starve!

Time to put the kettle on me thinks!

 

[petercj]

But in support of copper as an ideal material for plumbing: 25 years on plastic, 20 years on stainless steel v 5000 years on copper

"Archeologists recovered a portion of the water plumbing system from the Pyramid of Cheops in Egypt. The copper tubing used was found in serviceable condition after more than 5,000 years...."

Taken from:-


Copper.org: Copper Facts

 

[SimonG]

Somehow I can't see it being a headline in The Sun in 7012.......

"Archeologists recovered a portion of the water plumbing system from the ruins of ancient London. The plastic tubing used was found in serviceable condition after more than 5,000 years...."

 

[petercj]

Somehow I can't see it being a headline in The Sun in 7012.......

"Archeologists recovered a portion of the water plumbing system from the ruins of ancient London. The plastic tubing used was found in serviceable condition after more than 5,000 years...."

Around 2050 you might see a headline re Britain under two feet of water due to 200,000 miles worth of Speed Fit giving out!

 

[R1CKY]

As above, always use copper. The only pushfit thing on my van are cap ends, even they are only used as a temporary measure!

 

[petercj]

Technical advancement is driven by the profit motive, and not common sense!

I picked up on the tail-end of a BBC radio 4 program last week, and they had a Professor in something or other on who summed it up for me when he said that he wasn't anti-capitalism, rather, he believed that markets should work in the best interests of people, and not the other way around, as they have come to over the past 25 years.

The Thatcherite mentality of allowing free market forces to prevail has allowed common sense, morality, and honesty to fall by the wayside. The ulltimate driving force has become the desire for profit, further profit, and more profit. It's made a small number of people extremely wealthy, while the rest of us are re-cycling junk that has barely lasted five minutes. Job satisfaction has gone out of the window in many trades because people know that what they are doing is sub standard, or could be done a lot better. Most of the mega-sized companies that are doing well strive to find ways of using less staff, which means putting people out of work. Large numbers of manufacturer's will seek to use cheap labour in other parts of the world whenever possible, thus adding to the unemployment figures. The scrap copper that you sold last month is probably now sat in a Chinese recycling plant the size of a small town.

According to the rules of the free market, this all makes sense!

People who challenge such rules are likely to be branded as socialists/ communists/ anti-capitalists, or with some other inappropriate branding slogan that has been imported from America where the media drip feed "the benefits" of the free market 24/7.

Plumbers may prefer copper, but the politicians will tell the people that plastic is more hygienic, more environmentally friendly, and generally the better product, and you can bet your last fiver that they will quote the research of some graduate in green studies who claims to have shoved a copper pipe up a rat's backside and found that it caused cancer.

Unfortunately, a lot of people will just soak it up and believe such spin, oblivious to the vested interests of those in power who will ensure that the markets work for them, and not for the majority, many of whom will come to realise that they can barely afford plastic pipes, let alone copper ones.

 

[AWheating]

plastic is great, im doing a new build plastic install this week. The problem with it is so called plumbers find it easy to fit compared to copper, so there tends to be alot more poor plastic installs compared to copper. It takes a skilled plumber to install both plastic and copper systems correctly, both have different advantages and disadvantages but a poor install is normally the result of a poor trademan.

 

[Nostrum]

You need a different builder ASAP. I hope you haven't been paying him cash in up front payments, I really do.

 

[frankjames]

I have seen worse,as long as there is no actual directional stress on the joints all should be fine.