fully qualified plumber in two weeks.

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double on bottom than top 20mm and 10cm squared per kw with no adventicious ventilatiom, am i close, then outside is as per normal
 
bottom is for combustion and cooling, top is for cooling only hence half
 
is the coversion factor divide by 3410? all this off top of head, cud look it up but too lazy
 
fuzzy said:
apprenticeships are day release 8 hours for 36 weeks a year and for 4 years, now you do the maths. Poor advice leads to incorrect decisions, your post is not only incorrect but dangerous for people wnating to train as they need the correct facts

It is not dangerous, these are facts, when you work out the amount of time it is pretty much the same and when you learn all together, you in-bed it in your brain, when you go 1 day a week, you can forget things from one week to the next. It is my opinion and i thought this forum was to express your opinions.

"why do you think people must take you on??"
because if they do not, the industry will go down hill due to plumbers like me having to go out and learn on the job with no previous experience.

I was on about the tech cert level 2 is 10 weeks, level 3 is 10 weeks, NVQs are 6 days each so in total it is 106 days plus gas training.

over 4 years at 36 weeks you will spend 144 days a year at college, minus the days that the college mess you around, the days that you spend not learning anything and the days where the kids mess around. so roughly the same.

When i went to college the first term was spent waiting for a tutor to turn up as the first one quit within 1 week of the start of term. so of your 36 weeks, we only actually got 28 weeks, then we taught ourselves as the tutor joined in with the younger kids messing around and then 2 weeks before the end of term, he got sacked, I would never go back to college after my experience. The facts. The fast track is exactly the same as the college for training (not including the stupidly fast track courses). 2 weeks to become a plumber is absolutely rubbish, nobody offers this, they only say that and when you sign up they tell you its actually a lot longer then that.

Now where I agree with everybody is, college / training centres can only teach you so much. The only place you will really learn is in the workplace. If somebody has done 5 years working as a plumber then he will be hundreds better then somebody who went to college for 5 years with no work experience. And the person who worked and went to college 1 day a week will be millions better. You do not learn how to empty water from the pipes before you start work or to empty a toilet before you work on it.
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4 years of day release, the other 4 on site learning your trade. this is far in excess of any of the fast track courses and much better.

if this is yor opinion then this is fine, it seemed to come over as fact, i pointed out it isnt fact, if you want to carry on believing it then fine, thats your choice. i will always post the facts for newbies to read and learn. i founf college excellent, teaching and learning was excellent, tutors very knowledgable and in it for the long term, not until people stop paying silly money and then off on the next venture
 
fuzzy said:
4 years of day release, the other 4 on site learning your trade. this is far in excess of any of the fast track courses and much better.

if this is yor opinion then this is fine, it seemed to come over as fact, i pointed out it isnt fact, if you want to carry on believing it then fine, thats your choice. i will always post the facts for newbies to read and learn. i founf college excellent, teaching and learning was excellent, tutors very knowledgable and in it for the long term, not until people stop paying silly money and then off on the next venture
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Did you not fully read my post

"Now where I agree with everybody is, college / training centres can only teach you so much. The only place you will really learn is in the workplace. If somebody has done 5 years working as a plumber then he will be hundreds better then somebody who went to college for 5 years with no work experience. And the person who worked and went to college 1 day a week will be millions better. You do not learn how to empty water from the pipes before you start work or to empty a toilet before you work on it."


The problem is that there is not enough plumbing apprenticeships out there, so there is 2 choices,
1. quit the job of your dreams, become a bum and live on benefits
2. Fast track courses

where has option 3 gone,
3. work with a plumber for 4 years and go to college 1 day a week

Gone for ever and the fat cats at these training centres are making money from it
 
Have you actually looked into these courses. have you been and found out the resources that they have got, Have you found out how many hours they work, what they are offering, or are you a hard core Fast Track Hater.

the comments you posted are not "FACT" as you say. The day release is not any more or less then the the college, you do the same amount of work, you do the same amount of subjects, it is governed by the same people with the same online exams. with the same percentage that you have to get right on the tests. The only diffeence is the amount of time you have to learn it in and the fact that you don't do have on site work experience.

But if somebody had experience working as a plumber for 10 years, what is stopping him from doing a fast track course.

I personnaly would never employ anybody who was from a college but i would nearly always employ somebody from a Training centre.

Further to this, There are fast track driving courses, Does this mean that these drivers are un safe.
 
i worked on site for 2 weeks, then college for 1 week, for 3 years then a full year on site for my apprenticeship
 
how many of you, (who got an apprenticeship and learnt over 4 years) take on apprentices?
 
ive just started up but i will take on an apprentice cheap labour to be honest and you can teach him the way you work and to your standards
 
and pay his fees. And get insurance? And make sure you have all the safety gear for him?
 
SNIPEF pays alot towards the training, and yes as it would be my duty like any employer who must supply ppe

note snipef is in scotland, dont know whos the equivelent in england
 
then no that is why i'd go for a 16 year old apprentice get most payed for via a grant...sadly the fast track thing doesnt look too good on a CV and that is why you'll struggle to get a start, its hard enough for qualified guys to get a job been in the game 20 year
 
Sorry Fuzzy, was watching a bit telly there.

The boiler is rated at 60000btu so you convert it to kw by dividing by 3414 = 17.58kw
As it is an old boiler, unless it states the output is net on the data plate, assume it is gross so divide 17.58 by 1.1 = 15.98 rounded up is 16kw.

If the cupboard (compartment) is vented direct from outside you base you vent sizes on the FULL input of the boiler
Vent sizes would be 16 x 5cm = 80cm² at high level and 16 x 10cm = 160cm² at low level

If however the compartment is vented to the kitchen and then to outside you need to calculate the compartment vent based on overall input which would be 16 x 10cm = 160cm² for high level and 16 x 20cm = 320cm² for low level.
You then need to calculate the combustion air requirement from outside so deduct 7kw from the 16kw for adventitious air = 9kw x 5cm = 45cm² needed

Easy innit. Try to remember that one as you will need it.
 
I agree with Fuzzy. 10 weeks or 50 days training in this industry is a joke. A real apprenticeship is for 4 years and only in year 2 (or when your considered capable enough) can you actually do work.
There are too many of these fast track plumbers that have little practical on the job experience and they are taking away work from the rest of us who slogged our guts out for years to reach the standard we have now. No sympathy on the lack of your progress on the job front either. There's too many of you now and not enough work to go round so that's why you can't get a job. I for one will only take on a school leaver and give him a proper apprenticeship so that he has the correct training on and off the job.
Fast track? Says it all really.
 
Exactly this is what i am saying, Fast track is there to help people who went off the rails at 16, or were unable to do well in life. To turn their life around, Should we turn our backs on people because they did not decide what they wanted to do by the age of 16.

This goes a lot deeper then just this subject, the benefit system is the main problem, should you go to college when on benefits, you do not qualify for benefits as you are not looking for work. The system does not let people better them selves.

If they stopped paying alcaholics and druggies incapacity benefit, and put this money into helping train people then we would all be better off.

I understand that people have done 4 years to become fully qualified, But if plumbers will not take anybody over the age of 19 because of training fees, what are these people suppose to do?
 
system3 said:
I agree with Fuzzy. 10 weeks or 50 days training in this industry is a joke. A real apprenticeship is for 4 years and only in year 2 (or when your considered capable enough) can you actually do work.
There are too many of these fast track plumbers that have little practical on the job experience and they are taking away work from the rest of us who slogged our guts out for years to reach the standard we have now. No sympathy on the lack of your progress on the job front either. There's too many of you now and not enough work to go round so that's why you can't get a job. I for one will only take on a school leaver and give him a proper apprenticeship so that he has the correct training on and off the job.
Fast track? Says it all really.
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So you are saying that i am not worthy of being a plumber?
Even though i learnt at college for 2 years and only did the NVQ fast track? but simply because i am over 19?
 
tamz said:
Sorry Fuzzy, was watching a bit telly there.

The boiler is rated at 60000btu so you convert it to kw by dividing by 3414 = 17.58kw
As it is an old boiler, unless it states the output is net on the data plate, assume it is gross so divide 17.58 by 1.1 = 15.98 rounded up is 16kw.

If the cupboard (compartment) is vented direct from outside you base you vent sizes on the FULL input of the boiler
Vent sizes would be 16 x 5cm = 80cm² at high level and 16 x 10cm = 160cm² at low level

If however the compartment is vented to the kitchen and then to outside you need to calculate the compartment vent based on overall input which would be 16 x 10cm = 160cm² for high level and 16 x 20cm = 320cm² for low level.
You then need to calculate the combustion air requirement from outside so deduct 7kw from the 16kw for adventitious air = 9kw x 5cm = 45cm² needed

Easy innit. Try to remember that one as you will need it.
Click to expand...

wrong.lol.
 
system3 said:
I agree with Fuzzy. 10 weeks or 50 days training in this industry is a joke. A real apprenticeship is for 4 years and only in year 2 (or when your considered capable enough) can you actually do work.
There are too many of these fast track plumbers that have little practical on the job experience and they are taking away work from the rest of us who slogged our guts out for years to reach the standard we have now. No sympathy on the lack of your progress on the job front either. There's too many of you now and not enough work to go round so that's why you can't get a job. I for one will only take on a school leaver and give him a proper apprenticeship so that he has the correct training on and off the job.
Fast track? Says it all really.
Click to expand...

Don't Know if you read it properly, but Its About 120-130 days in total on the fast track, Where as the college is 144 or so days.

Are you saying that people are only worthy to be a plmber if they start from the bottom up, passing tools, watching how someone else does it, making tea and working your way up?
 
I have taken on and trained 4 apprentices over the years and when the on i have with me now has served his time i will start another one.
I do it because i want to pass the skills on the way it was passed to me and give some youngster the chance i had. He will also be taught the way i want him to learn. It is like a blank canvas.
I don't do it for the cheap labour as they have all been on tradesmans wages before their time was out and it is not for what i get in training grants (through Snipef) because that is laughable. It used to work out at £1 a day with a final bonus given at the end of about £1800 (it was something like that with the last one) when they were qualified.
Split that over 4 years and it is not a lot of financial incentive. It doesn't even pay for his bacon rolls. They are also enrolled in the plumbing pension scheme (which also costs me).
They have all been 16 and one 17. Sure young lads are daft and loose interest sometimes but you just need to know how to handle them. We have all did daft things when we were young. Youngsters generally have little financial responsibility (bottle of wine at the weekend!) so accept lower wages. Treat them right and they will be loyal to you but when the time is right they will move on and do you proud.
I can't see me ever taking an adult trainee. They had their chance and blew it years ago. They now have families and mortgages to pay and loyalty is not part of their road to riches beliefs. As for working for free. Are you having a laugh? Not a cats hope in hell.
There are apprenticeships out there, always has been just not in the numbers you think there should be. The numbers taken on depend on the workload. At the minute things are not great but there are still some who will be taken on in the summer.
 
i am going to re-read your answer then get me book out to check something...
then probably appologise, give me a mo.


thought so;
i was wrong.lol
thinking balanced flue.

so answer is; as you say or
option b,
44cm2 and 88cm2
 
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jase158 said:
Are you saying that people are only worthy to be a plmber if they start from the bottom up, passing tools, watching how someone else does it, making tea and working your way up?
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That's how I did it.And I think that's the best way for people to enter the trade.

I've not employed an apprentice personally yet,but I've had a few while I was working for a firm,and as Tamz says,I wouldn't employ an older trainee for the same reasons. My decision to take on an apprentice would need me to keep costs down,and young lads will settle for less,and I don't think someone would be happy to work for free for long,no matter how many times I see that written. It's not the way it should be done anyway.

I don't know why people seem to think that plumbing is a free for all where everyone can have a go,it seems that idea developed and the training centres jumped and grabbed it with both hands,some of the training ads are beyond belief,saying 70-100k is on the cards for all.Complete nonsense.

To answer the original question,No,fast tracks aren't good for the industry,the standards have dropped.
 
REDSAW said:
Hope i didnt miss-read the training provider there,
but it states the course is for experienced plumbers?.

How did you get on the gas course or are they short cutting their own standards for ££££?
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I did the full time course which states...
ahem...
'Our fast track Get to Gas course is suitable for anyone wishing to embark on a financially rewarding career as a qualified heating engineer. Whether you have no experience at all and want to start from scratch, or have basic plumbing ability you want to develop, our training will equip you with the necessary skills required to undertake gas work on-site.'
 
I think we (career changers) are between a rock & a hard place. We fall into these courses promising all, pay a whopping wedge of hard earned & then we are mocked by the industry for doing so, despite being qualified (albeit without a huge amount of experience). I know fast trackers (mainly gas) who have been trading for years & they are still referred to as fast trackers by the time served guys.
At what point does a fast tracker with all the qualifications & then some with a few years experience under their belt become 'time served' or considered worthy of their career title?
It's a bit village mentality if you ask me, you know, when someone new moves in & after 50 years of living there, they're still referred to as 'the new people'...!
 
Dormouse said:
I think we (career changers) are between a rock & a hard place. We fall into these courses promising all, pay a whopping wedge of hard earned & then we are mocked by the industry for doing so, despite being qualified (albeit without a huge amount of experience). I know fast trackers (mainly gas) who have been trading for years & they are still referred to as fast trackers by the time served guys.
At what point does a fast tracker with all the qualifications & then some with a few years experience under their belt become 'time served' or considered worthy of their career title?
It's a bit village mentality if you ask me, you know, when someone new moves in & after 50 years of living there, they're still referred to as 'the new people'...!
Click to expand...
In answer to your question, a fast tracker or for that matter anyone is considered worthy of their career title, when they can prove that the work that they do is done to a very high standard, efficiently and conscientiously as required by this industry.
I have nothing personal against people who change their career, however I do have an issue with those that compete with me while having no experience and giving the profession a bad name. It takes a lot nowadays for people to get a professional in and not diy it. A botched job by an inexperienced person with little or no experience not only gives the profession a bad name, but puts people off from getting a tradesman in the next time. I have seen a catalogue of basic and costly errors done by people who have completed a course and not gained enough practical experience on the job.
Why do you fast track and not sit a proper apprenticeship? Do you actually believe the 70k plus earnings or are you gullible enough to not have done any research into this before parting with your large course fees?
I'll take on young kids out of school and train them properly and give them a chance of a career and a future. Sadly many fast trackers I suspect are either bored with their career, failed at it, or only want to become a plumber due to what they consider financial gain. I would NOT employ such a person with this criteria and I doubt any employers would either.
 
nothing wrong with career changers, but the posts on here were from people who have done fast tracks and then complained that they didnt know enough whilst defending fast tracks??? i havnt made a judgement just pointed out that you cannot blame the qualification but the people who offer and deliver a fast track get you a sert but you dont know anything (your words not mine) this is a clear contradiction
 
Well there's ageism laws against that in this country, and anyway I personally would employ someone that I find the most suitable for the job regardless of age. Sadly most are in it for the quick fix financial gain promised by the training centres.
If you've reached your 30's, 40's or 50's then you've at least gained some training and had/still have a career. School leavers don't have that priviledge and that's my reason for taking on young apprentices to give them a start in life, proper training and a future.
 
YES, LVL 3 + ACS, 3 Year Apprenticeship. Just starting my first proper job.
 
jase158 said:
I did my training at college and did the fast track for my nvq,

No they are Not destroying the industry, The Plumbers who will not take on an apprentice, Is ruining the industry, I sent 160 letters to plumbers, offering to work for free to gain experience and received a disgraceful 10 replies all saying NO. How am I suppose to learn if nobody will take me on.

I learnt all the building regs, i.e. at college.

But the 2 weeks courses are actually 10 weeks. This is 50 days. College have 2 days a week over 24 weeks, equalling 48 days so you work it out.

The NVQ is 6 visits on site, which is exactly the same as in college.

For me there is no different, except that the college is all a bunch of 16-18 year olds who do not want to be there, and they have had it all free.
Training centres are all people who actually want to be there and have paid for their course so there is about 30 per cent more training time.
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why is it a disgrace you wrote to 160 plumbers and not 1 would take you on ?

the 'bunch of 16-18 year olds who do not want to be there' are proper apprentices , who have a bit of foresight to see earning low wages for 4 years and learning a trade is going to be worth it in the long run. so what they muck around in the class/workshop and have a laugh , it s all part of growing up and serving your time.


was earning £25 a week (+ yad) for my first year , while my mates were on £100-150 as posties , insurance clerks etc. they thought i was a mug working for less than a £1/hr .

give them a choke with a manhole full to the brim of shyte 1st thing on a monday morning and they re soon wishing they were back sorting letters or eyeing up the tidy blond whos just started in the office.

once a 6 monther , always a 6 monther .
i ll take on a young local lad or lassy and pass on the craft and the opportunity to learn a trade properly.

do you do any lead work on these fast track courses ? would be a con and a scam imo if you can call yourself a plumber without being able to work with the material the trades named after.
 
I am considering never having another apprentice !(hopefully I will get over this) Am now facing an industrial tribuneral for an apprentice who swore at me and then left ! Now claims unfair dissmissal , gets legal aid etc.
You cannot work for free !!!! Its illegal on the employer, you find out all sorts when you are facing court !(our apprentice was paid by the way )
 
tamz said:
Doesn't come into it with apprenticeships. The adult apprenticeship scheme was officially closed in 2008.
Click to expand...

and rightly so, was in the same year as an adult apprentice he finished end of 3rd and i was still an apprentice in 4th, i was better than him and he was making alot of costly mistakes !
 
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