Are we training too many plumbers?

[fuzzy]

Hi All,

This is a quote from the TES website

"Do we really have a demand-led system? What percentage of the statistics above could be down to supply-led initiatives by colleges? - for example, 48,000 did a technical certificate in plumbing in 2007. These plumbing courses are marketed by colleges who seem to have no regard for the supply and demand of the labour market; where do all these partially trained plumbers go? We only need 2,000 plumbers per year! If you are a plumbing apprentice and have had to go back to college to complete your apprenticeship on a 'programme-led' scheme, you must wonder why the evening courses are packed with adults wanting to become plumbers - seems odd that colleges are still pushing plumbing courses, whilst taking back apprentices that have been made redundant. It is reported here that we have a demand-led system, so where will all the plumbing employers come from to meet the ‘supply’ generated by colleges?"​

What do we make of these figures?​

 

[Blackcatgas]

I dont think that there has been a shortage of skilled trades since the second world war. There is now a surplace of tradesman, not alot of them skilled.

Hi All,

This is a quote from the TES website

"Do we really have a demand-led system? What percentage of the statistics above could be down to supply-led initiatives by colleges? - for example, 48,000 did a technical certificate in plumbing in 2007. These plumbing courses are marketed by colleges who seem to have no regard for the supply and demand of the labour market; where do all these partially trained plumbers go? We only need 2,000 plumbers per year! If you are a plumbing apprentice and have had to go back to college to complete your apprenticeship on a 'programme-led' scheme, you must wonder why the evening courses are packed with adults wanting to become plumbers - seems odd that colleges are still pushing plumbing courses, whilst taking back apprentices that have been made redundant. It is reported here that we have a demand-led system, so where will all the plumbing employers come from to meet the ‘supply’ generated by colleges?"​

What do we make of these figures?​

In 10 years nearly 1% of the population will be a plumber.

 

[dontknowitall]

1%? Perhaps 1% will call themselves a plumber - maybe 0.1% WILL be a plumber

;-)

 

[REDSAW]

1%? Perhaps 1% will call themselves a plumber - maybe 0.1% WILL be a plumber

;-)

and based on those figures in just one year if every 'trained' plumber was trading then each whould have just 1,000 customers each?.

this is why i am trying to do the survey to understand the figure ballance.
have you done yours yet?.

THE AVERAGE PLUMBER SURVEY

 

[Blackcatgas]

The thing is aswell, (and this is just a guess as Iam unsure of the age /sex demographics of our country), take into account the people of the correct age tobe working, so dicount 0-15yr olds and 65+, people who cant work through disabilities etc then maybe 20,000000 people are working then 5% of people will be plumbers in 10 years.

 

[realitybites]

10 years from now more plumbers than postmen, who will be earning a premium salary due to the scarcity............I may just stay where I am

 

[Smcart5]

If by training you mean a city and guilds 6128 course then yes.

 

[Puddle]

They say within ten years time you will never be further away than 20 feet from a plumber
Like now we have pest control,there will be plumber control,same thing some may say
They will be a scratching at peoples doors,leaving ptfe and solder droppings all over the place

 

[pauls]

i know they are figures for new entrants but i wonder if there are figures for people who do the course and then try to get into the trade but then fall by the way side

 

[Blackcatgas]

i know they are figures for new entrants but i wonder if there are figures for people who do the course and then try to get into the trade but then fall by the way side

Yes, more pain in the rse customers who will be watching over my shoulder telling me how to do my job "because they did a 12wk course in 2009" and therfore know how it should be done.

 

[fuzzy]

The 6129 came in around 2003. If we have trained 50,000 a year for just 6 years thats 300,000 trained in that short time

If we only need 2,000 a year as suggested the goverment have paid for enough plumbers in the last 6 years to last us for 150 years!!!!

I bet puddle will still be posting then!

Still fancy paying 10k to train? the advertising that plumbing jobs are hard to fill dont look so inviting now

 

[johnmcginty]

I get about 5 - 10 c.v 's asking for a job each week easy.

 

[moony]

john how many of them are from people with a nvq level 2 or 3

and how many are asking for a apprenticeship or have the 6128/9 tech cert?

 

[fuzzy]

john how many of them are from people with a nvq level 2 or 3

and how many are asking for a apprenticeship or have the 6128/9 tech cert?

can anyone eanswer q plumbs question?

 

[stevetheplumber]

and based on those figures in just one year if every 'trained' plumber was trading then each whould have just 1,000 customers each?.

this is why i am trying to do the survey to understand the figure ballance.
have you done yours yet?.

THE AVERAGE PLUMBER SURVEY

all these figure dont include the number of plumbers weve imported in the last 10 years

 

[johnmcginty]

john how many of them are from people with a nvq level 2 or 3

and how many are asking for a apprenticeship or have the 6128/9 tech cert?

Most have the cert and looking for nvq 2 or sometimes 3. I have had a few with 15 yrs plus experience acs and gs asking for " any work "

Say around 2-3 a month have txt speak in them , some are quite funny ...gt any jbs goin mate? I am an appurentis.

 

[WHPES]

Get about 2 a week. I think the colleges encourage them to send them out.

If any have text speak in them they would go straight in the bin. If people can't be bothered to make the effort to write properly they don't deserve a look in even if I had a vacancy.

 

[stevetheplumber]

Get about 2 a week. I think the colleges encourage them to send them out.

If any have text speak in them they would go straight in the bin. If people can't be bothered to make the effort to write properly they don't deserve a look in even if I had a vacancy.

i do the same if you dont have an english degree youll never make a good plumber

 

[fuzzy]

i do the same if you dont have an english degree youll never make a good plumber

i think you need to learn more and progress further than text speak to get a degree in English

 

[justlead1]

Training is another industry, with high powered sales people feeding the punters . It seams to work. However the plumbing / heating game has changed massively over the years. Were the plumber was involved with all types of pipework material for water, air, soil and waste, roofing in zinc, lead, copper, glazing, solid flue, oil, gas, warm air ducting, Guttering with various materials. The list goes on. Now it seems a large number carry the badge for connecting to a 15 mm main supply with a glorified Ascot on the end of it to heat the water and house, using the equivalent of hose and jubilee clips to transport the fluids. I am of the opinion that these modern methods will create plenty of poorly paid installation / repair/maintenance work for plumbers in the future. However those who specialise in areas within the trade are still having it off. Solar, solid fuel stoves, heat pumps, metal roofing and more are areas where good money can be earn't and they will be targeted when plumbing training reaches saturation point. The problem being you can not stop people from dreaming. Good Luck

 

[stevetheplumber]

i think you need to learn more and progress further than text speak to get a degree in English

actually i was being a tad sarcastic most of the boys from my generation who became involved with the building trades tended to be from the lower school achievers boys who couldnt do maths at school often got to grips with it at colldge when shown how to do heat calcs areas and volume
txt spk shd nt be a bar 2 b ing a plmba

 

[WHPES]

Customers are going to take a dim view of any trdesman using txt spk in any correspondence, and communication between trades could be subject to misinterpretation. After all, it's not tolerated in the military. Anyway, with intelligent texting now, is there really any need for some of the more inane abbreviations?

 

[fuzzy]

actually i was being a tad sarcastic most of the boys from my generation who became involved with the building trades tended to be from the lower school achievers boys who couldnt do maths at school often got to grips with it at colldge when shown how to do heat calcs areas and volume
txt spk shd nt be a bar 2 b ing a plmba

I have to disagree steve. If you go back 20/30/40 years or more the trade was very hands on. The hand skills required were difficult and took years to learn. With most trades this isnt as much the case anymore with easier materials and jointing methods on the market. However, the design considerations and the technical knowledge required has much increased, learning to be a plumber now is alot more classroom based than before, and we could eaily argue less about workshop.

therefore as the trade has changed so should the learners coming into it, they require more theory skills and less practical skills.

to complete a full apprenticeship in the UK all learners must pass English and Maths at C grade or above (or equivilant). Therefore its not possible to pass the course without that knowledge.

what you are leaning towards is a skillful plumber without the technical know how, called a plumbers mate. they have a place in industry for me and used to be paid about 90% of a plumber because they could do everything a plumber could but had to be told where the pipes go etc. All people with only a 6129 would have been classed years ago as a plumbers mate and paid accordingly. Those with a full apprenticeship would get the credit and pay in accordance with that

TO SUM UP - text speak does not stop you fitting things as well as other plumbers but does reduce the likelyhood that you have the ability to complete all the studies required and recognised by the sector skills council to make you a trades person

 

[hiretools]

Ok im going to add something to this conversation. i myself have enrolled in a short 8 week course the course is a 6129 cert (BUT!!!!!!!!!!! with a difference) i have managed to negotiate a deal with a certain training school to get my 6129 plus my central heating plus part L logic plus water regs plus a 4 module CH course for £2995 plus vat (£3521.00 Inclu vat) 8 weeks plus 4 days over 3 seperate periods for the different extras that have managed to blag.All im saying is that whether ur a plumber or training to become a good plumber (which 1 day i will be) recession is recession and i have to watch every penny i can, The original course fees they wanted were £5799,00 inclu vat. I have managed to save 2 grand. At the end of the day training is training but being out there is my goal.. Keep Smiling.Hiretools.

 

[fuzzy]

Ok im going to add something to this conversation. i myself have enrolled in a short 8 week course the course is a 6129 cert (BUT!!!!!!!!!!! with a difference) i have managed to negotiate a deal with a certain training school to get my 6129 plus my central heating plus part L logic plus water regs plus a 4 module CH course for £2995 plus vat (£3521.00 Inclu vat) 8 weeks plus 4 days over 3 seperate periods for the different extras that have managed to blag.All im saying is that whether ur a plumber or training to become a good plumber (which 1 day i will be) recession is recession and i have to watch every penny i can, The original course fees they wanted were £5799,00 inclu vat. I have managed to save 2 grand. At the end of the day training is training but being out there is my goal.. Keep Smiling.Hiretools.

whats the 4 module CH course? and remember the 6129 is not a full qual

 

[hiretools]

Fuzzy its these m8
1) Heating System Wiring And Controls Installation Training
2)Complex Central Heating Training To Include Conversion Of Systems
3)Central Heating System Commissioning In Accordance With Part L
4)Central Heating System Flushing/Power flushing.
Plus CH Logic, Water Regs, and Logic Part L.

 

[fuzzy]

Fuzzy its these m8
1) Heating System Wiring And Controls Installation Training
2)Complex Central Heating Training To Include Conversion Of Systems
3)Central Heating System Commissioning In Accordance With Part L
4)Central Heating System Flushing/Power flushing.
Plus CH Logic, Water Regs, and Logic Part L.

ok, not sure what course that is mate???

is logic the awarding body?

part L and water regs typically cost about £130 each

do you know the 6129 is not a full qual?

 

[hiretools]

Yeh i know that m8 but i do have my pat test plus first aid plus health and safety. i worked for the Oval and Lords cricket grounds as head security. and i have already sucessfully installed two bathrooms 1 in staffordshire at my house and 1 in ennis ireland my other family house and they all work sweet as m8. all im sayin is it just gives that starting edge to go further. im doing my onsite traing for the acs portfolio after i finish and then im hookin up with my uncle who is gas safe anyway formerly corgi

Fuzzy im 38 and have not got the time to do a two year course just lookin for a kick start.

 

[fuzzy]

Yeh i know that m8 but i do have my pat test plus first aid plus health and safety. i worked for the Oval and Lords cricket grounds as head security. and i have already sucessfully installed two bathrooms 1 in staffordshire at my house and 1 in ennis ireland my other family house and they all work sweet as m8. all im sayin is it just gives that starting edge to go further. im doing my onsite traing for the acs portfolio after i finish and then im hookin up with my uncle who is gas safe anyway formerly corgi

Fuzzy im 38 and have not got the time to do a two year course just lookin for a kick start.

thats fine, im just pointing out the facts , if your happy with your choice then i wish u the best of luck. you should really consider the full qual the NVQ

by the way both courses finish this summer

 

[hiretools]

Hi, Fuzzy hello m8 listen if u want to know wot im about have a look at my thread damsil in distress by kerry last thread.

i will defo be doing nvq 2/3 just had this cash to show me its my right path as i cant really afford to get it wrong having done 5 months for my 17th edition electrics.

 

[fuzzy]

Hi, Fuzzy hello m8 listen if u want to know wot im about have a look at my thread damsil in distress by kerry last thread.

i will defo be doing nvq 2/3 just had this cash to show me its my right path as i cant really afford to get it wrong having done 5 months for my 17th edition electrics.

ok, good luck but you only have a few months to register on the NVq 2 and 3

 

[WHPES]

Just to clarify, the 6129 is actually a full qualification in its own right, however it is the technical certificate and theory only (a bit like the theory part of your driving test) and to be a plumber you need to also have the Level 2 (or equivalent) which is the practical workplace assessment.

 

[fuzzy]

Just to clarify, the 6129 is actually a full qualification in its own right, however it is the technical certificate and theory only (a bit like the theory part of your driving test) and to be a plumber you need to also have the Level 2 (or equivalent) which is the practical workplace assessment.

Sorry mate that is incorrect. the 6129 is not theory only, it is half theory and half practical. It is all done in college and is not recognised by summitskills as a full level 2. that is different than you getting a certificate for it, as you say like getting a cert for theory driving text but still not being able to drive.

The NVQ is the full qual and is done solely on-site if you already have a TC that is

Quote from summit skills website

"Which training course is the

right one to do?​

A number of companies offer short
intensive training courses, some with
home-study options. However, practical
in-college training as well as practical
work experience on-site with a
plumbing company is always required
for all new entrants on the road to
becoming fully qualified. Make sure
that your training course will provide
you with an NVQ/SVQ at the end of​

your programme."

 

[justlead1]

Hi, I read with interest the knowledge displayed on qualifications. But how necessary are they? In the 47 years practicing the trade, i recall being ask / giving details of my qualifications on about 4 occasions. (3 of which were during recessions and applying for paye posts) They do however give the individual more confidence via achiement. But having worked with and employed plumbers, to much confidence makes some fail to take instruction. And taking a week to change a bathroom suit, is a long way from being on PLUMBER wages. But some still demand it. I am not alone but in a minority it seems, as my way of beating the boredom of working has been pricework. The punters know the cost from the start, theres no where for the weak to hide. If you can hack this, a good living can be had. Happy Days

 

[fuzzy]

Hi, I read with interest the knowledge displayed on qualifications. But how necessary are they? In the 47 years practicing the trade, i recall being ask / giving details of my qualifications on about 4 occasions. (3 of which were during recessions and applying for paye posts) They do however give the individual more confidence via achiement. But having worked with and employed plumbers, to much confidence makes some fail to take instruction. And taking a week to change a bathroom suit, is a long way from being on PLUMBER wages. But some still demand it. I am not alone but in a minority it seems, as my way of beating the boredom of working has been pricework. The punters know the cost from the start, theres no where for the weak to hide. If you can hack this, a good living can be had. Happy Days

more and more competent person schemes are coming in to try to stop non skilled and whats known as the black economy, thats people working as tradesman often cash in hand and not paying taxes.
i think the net is closing, if people are not interested in getting the qual anyway then why do a 6129 in the first place? why do any qual for that matter, just go out and plumb

 

[BluePlumber]

all this hoo haa about 6129, but really it doesn't mean much, what really matters, if on about qualification, is minimum NVQ2 certificate. At least this shows you've actually been out and done some proper plumbing rather than just learning about in in a class room.
IMHO if you're new to the trade you shouldn't be able to call yourself a plumber, or go out and trade as such till at least NVQ2.
Granted in most cases the 6129 is needed to progress to NVQ, and is only the first part of the training process.

BTW sorry to Fuzzy, just read your post and I've just repeated it

 

[Puddle]

My personal opinion only

Of the figures mentioned, how many were 16 to 18 year olds just doing a plumbing course just for the sake of it, it could have been a brick laying course, joinery course, taxidermy course, just went to the Local college open day and there was a place, away you go, they were not interested and probably only turned up for half the course to get out of the rain, these are the political ones, the government can say look at all the retraining we are doing, Know one lad, who went on a brick laying course and for six months hand about 30 bricks, sand and cement twice a week, all he did was build a little wall, knock it down, clean the bricks and rebuild the little wall again, on and on and on.....another government training centre, would be interesting to see the figure of those paying for a course, who really wanted to get into the trade and those not

Another issue here is that are people using the basic and advanced plumbing course, not just to become another 'plumber' but as a grounding and way in for other related areas, like renewables,gas/electric inspections,design,industrial skills, chemical operators ect
Many will move on, especially now they are in the training mode to other areas and plumbing is a good base for so many other areas
The days of training for one trade or career at 16 or 18 for the rest of your life are numbered
I started off as an industrial chemical plumber ( sound good, what it meant really was I was on more a week than normal first year plumbing apprentices, them on £ 14 to £16 and me on £23 a week, mind you for that I was killing myself surrounded by lead and killer chemicals but when you are young, that’s nothing for an extra £7 )
And have had to retrain again and again, taking more and more qualifications and that’s the way it is going
So do I think we are doing enough training,no,it is important for the country to have a skilled work force
And if we train to many plumbers along the way, that’s not necessarily a bad thing, it will make them better equipped to move on to a different skilled areas if required
If I am on a train, I have to pass through Doncaster to reach so many destinations; maybe basic plumbing is becoming the skills Doncaster
I speak as one who likes to improve as I go along, as do people paying thousands out to become a plumber, can not see them just sitting back when they have their plumbing qualifications, some will but many will do a bit of plumbing and then look for another related area to fill

omho

 

[fuzzy]

good post puddle, my only issue is the figures often take into account 'related trades'. I guess thats difficult in many areas and in some cases you will be right and others you wont. we will proabably never know. as a goverment they can only make decisions on the facts they are given, and those are the numbers quoted

6129 is not theory only, for those confussed, any questions please ask

 

[double d]

Hi guys, ive been working as abuilder/sort of plumber ( fitting disabled bathrooms,basic pluming ) for 9 years, but only now doing something about my qualifications, ive just signed up to do a part time Course wich would see me get my TC and then NVQ,my question is, if i started the course last month does that mean its been a waste of time because in september they are scraping it? been as ive started it does that mean i can finish it and get my NVQ?

 

[fuzzy]

registration not course ends in July (ish) if your registered before then no problems

 

[double d]

ok thanks fuzzy, so does that mean that when i get my TC, i can then look to get the NVQ? Or will there be some sort of swap over from the TC to the new Diploma?

 

[fuzzy]

ok thanks fuzzy, so does that mean that when i get my TC, i can then look to get the NVQ? Or will there be some sort of swap over from the TC to the new Diploma?

if already registered on nvq no probs, if not yes there should be some type of bridging module to the new diploma, we dont know yet though

 

[david williams]

you cant train a plumber in 12 weeks .most will pay the money then fall out of the trade,anyone who thinks they are a plumber after 12 weeks is deluded

 

[Puddle]

anyone who thinks they are a plumber after 12 weeks is deluded

maybe so ,maybe not,but at least they have learnt and trained to be something even if it is deluded
in my tongue in cheek honest opinion

Thought in van ,skills level in plumbing must have increased,when I first started there were loads of plumbers with end of figures missing,do'nt see many now !!!

Could be cynical and take it the other way of course and say,they do not have the skills requied today to chop the ends of thier fingers off !!

But seeing how I do not know what cynical means,I am going with my original thought

 

[fuzzy]

maybe so ,maybe not,but at least they have learnt and trained to be something even if it is deluded
in my tongue in cheek honest opinion

i dont know why it takes some people so long

 

[bcp]

Bottom line - yes. Oversupply of trainees however good or bad, poor margins, etc. etc. Bottom line is (and I wish potential trainees at the fast track schools would open their eyes and ask commercial / business questions) if you want to do plumbing 'coz you want to - fine - have a go. If you are looking at it as a commercial enterprise - you are unlikely to make your fortune anytime soon. The 'trades' are in the same boat as all the I.T wannabes were some 10/15 yrs ago: the boat has sailed!

 

[fuzzy]

Bottom line - yes. Oversupply of trainees however good or bad, poor margins, etc. etc. Bottom line is (and I wish potential trainees at the fast track schools would open their eyes and ask commercial / business questions) if you want to do plumbing 'coz you want to - fine - have a go. If you are looking at it as a commercial enterprise - you are unlikely to make your fortune anytime soon. The 'trades' are in the same boat as all the I.T wannabes were some 10/15 yrs ago: the boat has sailed!

i think youve put that very well. problem is there is no let up on 1,000's applying for college starts this septemebr thinking its a license to print money. who is spreading this word? it must be folk law or a common belief spread by people in the pub who dont know the facts, just heard it from another bloke in the pub.
If you put copper in your mouth when they breathalise you after being caught driving whilst under the influence it will come up negative, although it aint true people believe it

 

[bcp]

Thanks fuzzy. I really do despair for 'both sides'. All of us in the industry know what it's like and how margins have been squeezed, but just as importantly, how many would-be's are on a hiding to nothing and losing money in the process. Of course any industry needs new blood but for your own sakes people, go into this with your eyes wide open. By the way, I am never averse to subbing work or taking on 'mature' people. I am receptive to and make choices according to ability and naturally costs, but I think it's a mistake to always focus on 'young, young. young."

 

[fuzzy]

any industry needs to continually evlove. training hardly anyone for a decade and then 1,000s per week doesnt help the situation
idealy there should be a natural blend of ages and experiences with a certain percentage of new candidates of a variety of ages coming through the system every year

 

[msw109]

I think if you can address people with a good command of the English language, answer your phone promptly, turn up on time and do a good job, then it won't matter how many people are training to become plumbers,you will do ok and in my experience people will pay what you ask.

Stoneleigh Plumbing