N
nigelh
changing a trv on open vented system, draining down system to change valve ,would 100 be a fair price do u think?
many thanks
many thanks
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pricing
Discuss pricing in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net
M
mrplumber
I take it your sticking with your employer then...lol
G
GreenArmy
Certainly for now, but still running my own business or the extra money. The good thing is, is the work comes to me through recommends and associates so i dont need to chase work or advertise (apart from the free internet stuff) and i dont rely on it to live. There could be a time in the near future when i take the full leap and it wouldnt faze me one bit.
R
REDSAW
nice post bernie, but where is up here?. shetland islands $7.50 an hour?.
as charging goes, as a plumbing fraternity we should all stick to our guns when posible, ignoring the immagrant plumbers who only need £2.50 an hour to be the highest paid people in their village. you will never beat them on price-never. all that would do is put yourself on the bread line, if you change your hourly rate to £10
, someone will charge less still.
the people of britain know what they want. i dissagree what bernie says, it is not the cheapest price that counts, not 'down here' anyhow. it's about good local people who do a good job, looks trustworthy, speeks clear english, and have accountability (ie i know where your from) attitude. i have had customers who have bluntly told me that i am not the cheapest, but the other bloke was a right fat scruffy looking slob? so we chose you.
i am also the director of our family run haulage firm that has been going since the late 70's, see them come and go every year.
the same applies in this sector too. there are french, polish, latvians, nigerians and others in my immediate area, who have landed, bought a van and become a 'bloke and van we move it for £20 an hour' and they seem very busy.
does it bother us?. no. they run around like blue rse flies on a cowboy for little reward acustomed to life where they come from ie work hard for little return- just to survive.
the point is?.
they work say 25hrs a week @ £20 per = £500 pwk between the two of them. they get 250 new customers a year
we do 20hrs a week @ £55 per truck = £1'100 pwk each. we get 1500 new customers a year. and work 60% less for double the money.
does this make sense to you.
moral is - work smart not hard, unless you want to keep working in your 70's.
if there are 2 plumbers in my area who have 15 years exp, who are willing to work on a casual basis for £15ph please contact me as you can do my work for me and give me the remaining £15ph for sitting on my rse i shall be very happy.
as charging goes, as a plumbing fraternity we should all stick to our guns when posible, ignoring the immagrant plumbers who only need £2.50 an hour to be the highest paid people in their village. you will never beat them on price-never. all that would do is put yourself on the bread line, if you change your hourly rate to £10
, someone will charge less still.the people of britain know what they want. i dissagree what bernie says, it is not the cheapest price that counts, not 'down here' anyhow. it's about good local people who do a good job, looks trustworthy, speeks clear english, and have accountability (ie i know where your from) attitude. i have had customers who have bluntly told me that i am not the cheapest, but the other bloke was a right fat scruffy looking slob?
so we chose you.i am also the director of our family run haulage firm that has been going since the late 70's, see them come and go every year.
the same applies in this sector too. there are french, polish, latvians, nigerians and others in my immediate area, who have landed, bought a van and become a 'bloke and van we move it for £20 an hour' and they seem very busy.
does it bother us?. no. they run around like blue rse flies on a cowboy for little reward acustomed to life where they come from ie work hard for little return- just to survive.
the point is?.
they work say 25hrs a week @ £20 per = £500 pwk between the two of them. they get 250 new customers a year
we do 20hrs a week @ £55 per truck = £1'100 pwk each. we get 1500 new customers a year. and work 60% less for double the money.
does this make sense to you.
moral is - work smart not hard, unless you want to keep working in your 70's.
if there are 2 plumbers in my area who have 15 years exp, who are willing to work on a casual basis for £15ph please contact me as you can do my work for me and give me the remaining £15ph for sitting on my rse i shall be very happy
.
B
Bernie2
I fully understand your points.
But times are changing and I supposed we have to keep up with them.
The rates you quote could probably be found in many companies up here a few years ago. But there are more closed companies than open now.
It may not be as bad down South where there is still ample work for all.
But what if the idea of fixed price high turn over work catches on in London?
Many of the big companies even take on contracts at a fixed profit margin perhaps as low as 7%. On a £100,000 job that is £7,000, but they may have 20 jobs going the same size. And that is how they pay for all their staff.
Its not by charging a whopping big up front price.
Don't forget Easy Jet and Ryan Air make their millions by selling cheap and getting large crowds going to them, not by overloading prices.
That at least up here in the North of England seems to be the business model now being used.
But times are changing and I supposed we have to keep up with them.
The rates you quote could probably be found in many companies up here a few years ago. But there are more closed companies than open now.
It may not be as bad down South where there is still ample work for all.
But what if the idea of fixed price high turn over work catches on in London?
Many of the big companies even take on contracts at a fixed profit margin perhaps as low as 7%. On a £100,000 job that is £7,000, but they may have 20 jobs going the same size. And that is how they pay for all their staff.
Its not by charging a whopping big up front price.
Don't forget Easy Jet and Ryan Air make their millions by selling cheap and getting large crowds going to them, not by overloading prices.
That at least up here in the North of England seems to be the business model now being used.
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R
REDSAW
bernie.
you still have not answered where is up here?.
cheap air liners make their money from ferrying cargo hense baggage limitations on the cheap fares.
for any busiess that contracts are over £50,000 need to gross 11% to nett 4% profit.
4 or 5 years ago my family sold a business that i was involved in that had a t.o well over £28m p.a. usuall contracts from £30k to £1.5m typically in a seriously cut throat construction sector. in its hey day employed 350 people but the overall figure was the same at the end of the day irrespective of no/emp or t.o. that was a target of 11% and 4% respective. if memory serves thats £1m + proffit per year.
it is also probable that if you did construction/commercial you did work on our contracts from 35 years ago?. which paid i think £12ph.
W
Winston
I think in any business you have to be realistic at to the value of the work and service you provide and the risk you take in your business. As said previously I have seen a bathroom supplied and fitted here for £500. I didnt think much of it and I wouldnt want to be associated in that level of workmanship.
Dont get me wrong I am far from knowing all there is regarding bathrooms and to date I havent done one since trading maybe I price to high, but thats my rate.
Dont get me wrong I am far from knowing all there is regarding bathrooms and to date I havent done one since trading maybe I price to high, but thats my rate.
B
Bernie2
Hi Redsaw,
I think its generally accepted, trading circumstance is far different in London and possibly the whole South East, than it is anywhere else in the UK or should I say seems to be.
Isn't that why it appears that most people want to live there?
Further North people simply don't have the money to pay London prices, which are recognized as high by the amount of London weighting people get in their pay.
Yes you can, charge what you like down there, people will pay the prices, but where you trade you have to work within what people can afford.
Incidentally the Shetland Isle plumber probably gets quiet a lot for their work, there is little competition.
I suppose if your a company director in another trade you are not as reliant on Plumbing to earn a living anyway and that is a good position to be in.
It seems some of these guys have no other income source to supplement their income, though, other than Plumbing.
I feel sure they would prefer to work all week at a reasonable return than just rely on getting high price work every now and then?
There is nothing stopping you of course earning £100 an hour if you can. The market rate for a Bathroom install is perhaps £100, if you can install in 1 hour you make £100 per hour.
But will the market stand you saying "Its 4 hours work at £100 an hour?". I am not a Tory but Maggie Thatcher said "Easy profits are no good for industry!"
"It makes them complacent and they don't try to keep costs down or be as efficient as they could be" "Consequentially, when somebody comes into the market who can lower their prices because they are efficient and have a low cost base, they loose out"
How much of our UK manufacturing industry have we lost like that?
The North of England is all virtually empty spaces now where our industries once stood.
Why was all the fuss created when the Polish plumbers came over here?
They could do it cheaper that is why.
It may not be what we like but it seems to be the way things are going.
Incidentally GUKKI I think make about 250% on their stuff.
Fords like GM are nearly bankrupt.
The prices I quoted, as I said before are not my prices, they are the prices negotiated by the JIB for their probably thousands of self employed members.
They also grade their ordinary members according to qualification and experience. It was started, to get away from what some think as unfairness, in people new to the trade getting paid the same as the more experienced plumbers.
In self employment its probably fair to say that its the job you get paid for not your experience. Which basically is the way it should be.
Also many people on the forum are probably trying to work as sole traders not companies. If their work dries up during the credit crunch they may very well be forced into accepting work from the likes of Housing Associations who will probably offer them only the trade rates.
I am not against anybody making a decent living, its just that we have to be realistic about what that is likely to be. Lets be honest everybody called the government stupid for saying a person could earn £60,000 a year as a Plumber, but £40 works out at even more.
A sole trader does not have the same overheads as an employing company, the professionals in the likes of Housing Associations know that, that is why the self employed trade rate is fairly low.
We also of course have to include the customer in all this. If the money isn't there, can we expect them to pay high prices? Is that the image we want for the industry, its bad enough already?
I would also like to say, that I am not against teh self employed at all. I would welcome them into the industry, but they would have to relaise it won't be easy. It would be unfair of me not to tell them that.
Also, there are ways of making a lot of money and still give the customer a great deal.
You can of course go for the niche market and get excellent prices like I think Pimlico Plumbers do. But a niche market is not the same as the mass market that most self employed Plumbers proabably have to work in. In the mass market you have to pitch your price at what people are prepared to pay.
I think its generally accepted, trading circumstance is far different in London and possibly the whole South East, than it is anywhere else in the UK or should I say seems to be.
Isn't that why it appears that most people want to live there?
Further North people simply don't have the money to pay London prices, which are recognized as high by the amount of London weighting people get in their pay.
Yes you can, charge what you like down there, people will pay the prices, but where you trade you have to work within what people can afford.
Incidentally the Shetland Isle plumber probably gets quiet a lot for their work, there is little competition.
I suppose if your a company director in another trade you are not as reliant on Plumbing to earn a living anyway and that is a good position to be in.
It seems some of these guys have no other income source to supplement their income, though, other than Plumbing.
I feel sure they would prefer to work all week at a reasonable return than just rely on getting high price work every now and then?
There is nothing stopping you of course earning £100 an hour if you can. The market rate for a Bathroom install is perhaps £100, if you can install in 1 hour you make £100 per hour.
But will the market stand you saying "Its 4 hours work at £100 an hour?". I am not a Tory but Maggie Thatcher said "Easy profits are no good for industry!"
"It makes them complacent and they don't try to keep costs down or be as efficient as they could be" "Consequentially, when somebody comes into the market who can lower their prices because they are efficient and have a low cost base, they loose out"
How much of our UK manufacturing industry have we lost like that?
The North of England is all virtually empty spaces now where our industries once stood.
Why was all the fuss created when the Polish plumbers came over here?
They could do it cheaper that is why.
It may not be what we like but it seems to be the way things are going.
Incidentally GUKKI I think make about 250% on their stuff.
Fords like GM are nearly bankrupt.
The prices I quoted, as I said before are not my prices, they are the prices negotiated by the JIB for their probably thousands of self employed members.
They also grade their ordinary members according to qualification and experience. It was started, to get away from what some think as unfairness, in people new to the trade getting paid the same as the more experienced plumbers.
In self employment its probably fair to say that its the job you get paid for not your experience. Which basically is the way it should be.
Also many people on the forum are probably trying to work as sole traders not companies. If their work dries up during the credit crunch they may very well be forced into accepting work from the likes of Housing Associations who will probably offer them only the trade rates.
I am not against anybody making a decent living, its just that we have to be realistic about what that is likely to be. Lets be honest everybody called the government stupid for saying a person could earn £60,000 a year as a Plumber, but £40 works out at even more.
A sole trader does not have the same overheads as an employing company, the professionals in the likes of Housing Associations know that, that is why the self employed trade rate is fairly low.
We also of course have to include the customer in all this. If the money isn't there, can we expect them to pay high prices? Is that the image we want for the industry, its bad enough already?
I would also like to say, that I am not against teh self employed at all. I would welcome them into the industry, but they would have to relaise it won't be easy. It would be unfair of me not to tell them that.
Also, there are ways of making a lot of money and still give the customer a great deal.
You can of course go for the niche market and get excellent prices like I think Pimlico Plumbers do. But a niche market is not the same as the mass market that most self employed Plumbers proabably have to work in. In the mass market you have to pitch your price at what people are prepared to pay.
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W
Winston
Intresting how rates do vary across the country, I have only had two customers who have said thats alot. I would also be prepared to drop my rates but I was advised against it from local plumbers. But the cost of living is high where I am the average house price here is about 200k taking into account the drop in prices.
Many where I live commute to London as its easy to get to and obviously cheaper than London. Though I will admit many who work in the local industry here only earn £250 a week.
But I dont earn anywhere near 60k only been trading over a year first year t/o 25k was looking up but going quiet now, but I dont know whats round the corner. I for one go out in the evening many here turn there phones off.
Many where I live commute to London as its easy to get to and obviously cheaper than London. Though I will admit many who work in the local industry here only earn £250 a week.
But I dont earn anywhere near 60k only been trading over a year first year t/o 25k was looking up but going quiet now, but I dont know whats round the corner. I for one go out in the evening many here turn there phones off.
B
Bernie2
Hi! Winston,
Please don't get me wrong, I worked for a smashing small company at one time. But they where undercut so bad they could not cope with the competition from the big guys. As far as I know it wasn't only him it was a few other small companies as well.
Unfortunately work is scarce up here in the North West and most of the work is land lord or Housing Association. They as a business themselves, employ professional people whose job it is to get the best deal from self employed or small companies for their company.
A small company doesn't really have any say in the matter, other than to refuse or find a way to make a living from the rates on offer. But even then the big companies come in, to offer deals like those I have said and the small companies can't compete.
It's a case of having to think up new ways to do the same thing in ways that pay.
I've worked for the big companies as well, and you have to motor as I said at least 12 services a day are expected and you do most of the paperwork. But they are in the same boat, they have to ask the men to do that to make a living.
Your fortunate down South in having a well off clientèle, but its not usually like that up North.
I am stopping my mails to this thread now its gone on for ages. Its been very interesting to read all the different points of view.
Anyway! Good Fortune to your business.
Please don't get me wrong, I worked for a smashing small company at one time. But they where undercut so bad they could not cope with the competition from the big guys. As far as I know it wasn't only him it was a few other small companies as well.
Unfortunately work is scarce up here in the North West and most of the work is land lord or Housing Association. They as a business themselves, employ professional people whose job it is to get the best deal from self employed or small companies for their company.
A small company doesn't really have any say in the matter, other than to refuse or find a way to make a living from the rates on offer. But even then the big companies come in, to offer deals like those I have said and the small companies can't compete.
It's a case of having to think up new ways to do the same thing in ways that pay.
I've worked for the big companies as well, and you have to motor as I said at least 12 services a day are expected and you do most of the paperwork. But they are in the same boat, they have to ask the men to do that to make a living.
Your fortunate down South in having a well off clientèle, but its not usually like that up North.
I am stopping my mails to this thread now its gone on for ages. Its been very interesting to read all the different points of view.
Anyway! Good Fortune to your business.
C
ComfortHeating
How on earth can Bernie even afford to work? People like him need to stop devaluing our trade.. One thing he has forgotten to include in his price is that plumbers have outgoings. Eg. Vehicle payments, fuel, tools, etc. If I were to work for you my rent wouldn't be covered let alone food bill.
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