N
nigelh
changing a trv on open vented system, draining down system to change valve ,would 100 be a fair price do u think?
many thanks
many thanks
Discuss pricing in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net
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Just think what you would be willing to pay for a TRV it's no a lot of work. Tell customer to turn off heating and if pos freeze the pipe. I would say £50 labour and parts on top.
Where is rad you may not need to drain whole system if up stairs. Pluss I agree with
helpsy plug and pull a vacume. Just remember good workmanship, good price = recomendations and that means more work
Where is rad you may not need to drain whole system if up stairs. Pluss I agree with
helpsy plug and pull a vacume. Just remember good workmanship, good price = recomendations and that means more work
B
Bernie2
Hmm!
An employed Plumber in work would usually get about £12 or so an hour or below.
A self employed Plumber under contract work about £14 - £15 per hour or about £600 a week.
A valve replacement should take at max say 2- 4 hours including getting materials, which should then cost a customer about £30 - £60 plus materials.
In practice of course, if you have everything to hand and use bungs to stop the flow then it should take about 1/2 hour at most. Which would mean charging about £10 plus materials.
An employed Plumber in work would usually get about £12 or so an hour or below.
A self employed Plumber under contract work about £14 - £15 per hour or about £600 a week.
A valve replacement should take at max say 2- 4 hours including getting materials, which should then cost a customer about £30 - £60 plus materials.
In practice of course, if you have everything to hand and use bungs to stop the flow then it should take about 1/2 hour at most. Which would mean charging about £10 plus materials.
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get real mate who can travel to a job lay out dust sheets get in the loft change a valve get back in loft to release bungs clear up dust sheets
write bill wait for customer to find cheque bookand write the cheque for a tenner plus mats
sensible price is gonna be £75 all in thats london price for a domestic valve change for more than one valve add 20/25 each extra
W
w1nxn
pretty sure Bernies pulling ya leg there lol
recently did similar job on a sunday afternoon and charged 100. easy job either way but using bungs eliminates problems refilling system.
fair price.
recently did similar job on a sunday afternoon and charged 100. easy job either way but using bungs eliminates problems refilling system.
fair price.
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R
REDSAW
agreed.
what happens if ball-cock sticks, small leaks, inhibitors, £15 trv fuel, blocked drain cock, call-back etc, want £30 just for that. £80-100 is right i say as it is 2 hours work to allow for at least.
if customer wants to drain and re-fill supply part then £40 end of,.
W
Winston
What! I would charge the following Labour 2 Hours £80 TRV £25 Inhibitor £20
B
Bernie2
Actually,No!
I am not pulling our leg. You are looking from a self employed person doing private work point of view, where you can dictate any rate the customer will pay. In other words you choose the rate not the customer. These are rates offered by the customer on contract work.
If you work for large contractors or housing associations and want work continuity you will find they dictate the rate to you not the other way around.
Its also the base rate to work off for big contract work. It may be as a company you can negotiate higher rates, and extras, but the small difference between employed and self employed Plumber rate is what you may have to work with on labour rates.
That is why, usually you may find prices given for jobs to Plumbers rather than pay rates per hour. That way an employer pays his or her staff a bonus rate for getting a job done fast. The resulting time savings can make up more company profit in various ways i.e Contract finishing bonuses and the like. Also if you negotiate with the men perhaps a lower bonus hour rate than a normal hourly rate or tight target times.
You will find all the current pay rates for employed and self employed Plumber's working on contract work, if you Google Plumbing JIB. But many firms pay below this.
The £15 per hour self employed rate is probably the rate a housing association or contractor would offer you. But then you could add on set price travel time of course
At £40 per hour, that means you would be on £1600 per week or £83,000 per annum. Let's be honest Plumbers don't get that much per week, unless you play football as well.
Its no use saying you have a van to pay for, any Plumber nowdays uses his or her own transport and has the same problems.
Training costs are the same as are tools.
Get real guys, no wonder the Polish Plumbers can take your work.
I am not pulling our leg. You are looking from a self employed person doing private work point of view, where you can dictate any rate the customer will pay. In other words you choose the rate not the customer. These are rates offered by the customer on contract work.
If you work for large contractors or housing associations and want work continuity you will find they dictate the rate to you not the other way around.
Its also the base rate to work off for big contract work. It may be as a company you can negotiate higher rates, and extras, but the small difference between employed and self employed Plumber rate is what you may have to work with on labour rates.
That is why, usually you may find prices given for jobs to Plumbers rather than pay rates per hour. That way an employer pays his or her staff a bonus rate for getting a job done fast. The resulting time savings can make up more company profit in various ways i.e Contract finishing bonuses and the like. Also if you negotiate with the men perhaps a lower bonus hour rate than a normal hourly rate or tight target times.
You will find all the current pay rates for employed and self employed Plumber's working on contract work, if you Google Plumbing JIB. But many firms pay below this.
The £15 per hour self employed rate is probably the rate a housing association or contractor would offer you. But then you could add on set price travel time of course
At £40 per hour, that means you would be on £1600 per week or £83,000 per annum. Let's be honest Plumbers don't get that much per week, unless you play football as well.
Its no use saying you have a van to pay for, any Plumber nowdays uses his or her own transport and has the same problems.
Training costs are the same as are tools.
Get real guys, no wonder the Polish Plumbers can take your work.
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P
Puddle
Turning into a bit of a troll are we Bernie ?
£40 an hour infact using your figures works out at $ £48.000
On jobbing works out of 8 hrs you look to book about 5hrs the rest is traveling,getting to and from jobs,paper work ect.
5* 40= £200 per day
=£1000 per week
4 weeks Holiday = 48 weeks left = £48,000
A fair yearly salary I think
The fact most plumbers work more hours and increase there income is up to them,so yes leaving the house at 7.30pm and getting home at 8.00pm
six days a week and the odd Sunday,only having maybe 2 weeks holiday,gives them the right to earn a good yearly wage
And taking a cheap snip at fellow tradesmen, using the polish plumbers taking the work jab,I would have thought a bit below you,I Know alot of good ,fair pricing tradesmen,who lost a lot of work because of their underpricing,this was before the recession
Hmm!
Nice to know you under value the British Plumbers value so much
£40 an hour infact using your figures works out at $ £48.000
On jobbing works out of 8 hrs you look to book about 5hrs the rest is traveling,getting to and from jobs,paper work ect.
5* 40= £200 per day
=£1000 per week
4 weeks Holiday = 48 weeks left = £48,000
A fair yearly salary I think
The fact most plumbers work more hours and increase there income is up to them,so yes leaving the house at 7.30pm and getting home at 8.00pm
six days a week and the odd Sunday,only having maybe 2 weeks holiday,gives them the right to earn a good yearly wage
And taking a cheap snip at fellow tradesmen, using the polish plumbers taking the work jab,I would have thought a bit below you,I Know alot of good ,fair pricing tradesmen,who lost a lot of work because of their underpricing,this was before the recession
Hmm!
Nice to know you under value the British Plumbers value so much
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B
Bernie2
Based on 40 hour week = 40 x 40 = £1600 per week x 52 = £83,200.
Do you really expect customers to pay for your holidays?
You might think these rates very low, but up North, many small companies are probably working on the kind of figures I said, because as I said, if they want continuity of work they have to accept the price the customer offers not their own idea of what they think their time is worth.
My reference to Polish Plumbers is more about price, not where the Plumbers come from. I don't support cheap labour policies more than anybody else. But you have to be realistic about the market.
The government don't mind Polish Plumbers coming in they lower prices for the public.
I think if we offer fair prices, Polish Plumbers simply would not be able to compete. I am not talking minimum wage here.
Puddle you will find I did not make the rates up, these are industry rates. So I would have a word with industry not me, all I am doing is saying the way it is. I know it may not suite everybody but that is what the rates are said to be.
Now lets be honest its got nothing to do with Plumbing really, if a man can be a
Plumber and only get £14 per hour. How do Plumbers justify £40 per hour?
The reason is, its about how much you can get for the job in private work.
In contract work you have to fit yourself in to the price on offer, if you want the work. And the prices on offer are those I put up as far as I know.
If you where an employer and had options of hiring labour i.e Polish Plumbers £14 per hour or UK Plumbers £40 per hour.
Which would you take?
The answer is, you would have to go for the Polish Plumbers, if your a public company you have to go for the rate that is in the companies best interests and that means Polish Plumbers. If you don't a company director can find himself in gaol or kicked out by the shareholders.
So if we want to compete our rates have to be some where near what people will pay.
Don't get me wrong, I understand where your coming from, but I am sure any of the many companies I worked for, that have now gone bankrupt would tell you the same thing.
Do you really expect customers to pay for your holidays?
You might think these rates very low, but up North, many small companies are probably working on the kind of figures I said, because as I said, if they want continuity of work they have to accept the price the customer offers not their own idea of what they think their time is worth.
My reference to Polish Plumbers is more about price, not where the Plumbers come from. I don't support cheap labour policies more than anybody else. But you have to be realistic about the market.
The government don't mind Polish Plumbers coming in they lower prices for the public.
I think if we offer fair prices, Polish Plumbers simply would not be able to compete. I am not talking minimum wage here.
Puddle you will find I did not make the rates up, these are industry rates. So I would have a word with industry not me, all I am doing is saying the way it is. I know it may not suite everybody but that is what the rates are said to be.
Now lets be honest its got nothing to do with Plumbing really, if a man can be a
Plumber and only get £14 per hour. How do Plumbers justify £40 per hour?
The reason is, its about how much you can get for the job in private work.
In contract work you have to fit yourself in to the price on offer, if you want the work. And the prices on offer are those I put up as far as I know.
If you where an employer and had options of hiring labour i.e Polish Plumbers £14 per hour or UK Plumbers £40 per hour.
Which would you take?
The answer is, you would have to go for the Polish Plumbers, if your a public company you have to go for the rate that is in the companies best interests and that means Polish Plumbers. If you don't a company director can find himself in gaol or kicked out by the shareholders.
So if we want to compete our rates have to be some where near what people will pay.
Don't get me wrong, I understand where your coming from, but I am sure any of the many companies I worked for, that have now gone bankrupt would tell you the same thing.
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I think Bernie's post is comparing 2 entirely different situations.It is certainly very unfavourable to the self-employed.If you work on sites for those rates fair enough,you at least are aware of the rates,any unforeseen problems don't concern you.Anyone working for themselves would perhaps turn out for £40 for first hour perhaps £20-25 for next + materials.Bearing in mind this might not allow much productive work to be done for rest of day it wont be the best of days.Even doing 2 small jobs is not going to make your fortune.These would be cheap rates outside my local area.Having tried to offer a reasoned answer it may be better for THIS THREAD TO BE REMOVED.Discussing prices does no tradesman any favours.People will always seize on a chance to lower prices.We always hope to be able to charge a decent rate for good quality work based on recommendations.However there is a whole industry devoted to putting right terrible quality work where the customer has gone on price as the main criteria.Lots of posts occur on forums on the lines of 'is this a bodge job?' 'Have I been ripped off?'etc.I have recently seen 2 nightmare bathrooms.I hate getting involved with other people's bad workmanship and many good tradesmen won't.You have to bear in mind you are the last in if problems later occur.Charge decent rate for your skills,do a good job,work will follow at a decent rate.Sorted!!
D
dontknowitall
I've looked up the job I did one evening last year (open vented, drain down, swap valves round, refill including inhibitor). Total was £60.
One happy customer.
And he's asked me back three times for other bigger tasks and is now one of my best customers!
Now he's saving up for me to change his bathroom.
One happy customer.
And he's asked me back three times for other bigger tasks and is now one of my best customers!
Now he's saving up for me to change his bathroom.
W
Winston
I think with all respect to all who have contributed everyone prices will be different and so it should be. We all have different outgoings in our business and personal life.
I have seen a bathroom supplied and fitted for £500 I cant say I thought much of it but someone did it. I have also seen a bathroom supplied and fitted for £2,500 & as I said to the customer they had done a wonderful job.
So lets all chill and continue in the good work many provide here of their expertise for us as members as well as the public.
I have seen a bathroom supplied and fitted for £500 I cant say I thought much of it but someone did it
. I have also seen a bathroom supplied and fitted for £2,500 & as I said to the customer they had done a wonderful job.So lets all chill and continue in the good work many provide here of their expertise for us as members as well as the public.
B
Bernie2
Hi! Winston
Its not meant to be a fight or anything its just to give people some idea of what others are getting. In my local paper bathroom fittings is being advertised as starting from £130.
I would not like anybody to be under the illusion making a living in the plumbing industry is going to be easy.
I have worked for companies who want you to do about 11 or 12 gas services a day or more. That is the way they make their money. They charge low to get the work but they have to work fast to make a decent profit.
The same, whole house heating local paper advertised from about £1750 and they supply all the materials. Say 3 days work for 2 men, take off materials at say minimum £800 that leaves £950 for 6 days work or about £159 a day. At £40 an hour it would work out at £320 a day.
I did not mean to offend anybody in what I wrote, its just a reminder that its hard out there. And probably for every £40 an hour job you get you may be offered 20 £14 an hour ones.
Its not meant to be a fight or anything its just to give people some idea of what others are getting. In my local paper bathroom fittings is being advertised as starting from £130.
I would not like anybody to be under the illusion making a living in the plumbing industry is going to be easy.
I have worked for companies who want you to do about 11 or 12 gas services a day or more. That is the way they make their money. They charge low to get the work but they have to work fast to make a decent profit.
The same, whole house heating local paper advertised from about £1750 and they supply all the materials. Say 3 days work for 2 men, take off materials at say minimum £800 that leaves £950 for 6 days work or about £159 a day. At £40 an hour it would work out at £320 a day.
I did not mean to offend anybody in what I wrote, its just a reminder that its hard out there. And probably for every £40 an hour job you get you may be offered 20 £14 an hour ones.
W
Winston
Fair piont Bernie, I am all for debate and differences of opinion but if I can add, I wouldnt like to see this forum become like another that just knocks others.
M
migoplumber
dont fret about that winston, everybody is invited to post what they think ( within the rules )
if somebody is rude or constantly negative then there input is not welcome and there capacity to make input will be removed.
imho i agree with bernie about the pricing.
its all weel and good being employed by a firm and doing your foreigners cheap.
doing the job self employed with your outgoings is a different price.
if somebody is rude or constantly negative then there input is not welcome and there capacity to make input will be removed.
imho i agree with bernie about the pricing.
its all weel and good being employed by a firm and doing your foreigners cheap.
doing the job self employed with your outgoings is a different price.
R
radswilldo
You cant work out annual salary for a plumber based on hourly rate, unless your a journo. The only plumbers I know that do 40 plus hours week in week out are the ones who have been established in an area for 10 years plus. I have been busy since june, but at the start of the year I was not. I could spend one week doing 50-60 paid hours and the next 3 doing 15-20.
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hourly rate is low on a monday but when your first job of the week is friday morning its gonna be considerably higher lol
H
Hugh
£15 an hr in n.ireland for selfemployed plumbers
A
andekoch
I use a sliding scale of charges where a full day works out to around 150. But if hourly then 40 for the first hour and 25 for the next. This at least allows me to make something if I can only fit in 2 small jobs in a day, due to travel, getting parts etc.
The day rate here seems to 'support' what bernie is saying and the hourly rate 'supports' the others.
I would charge about 100 plus material to change a trv and hope to be gone in 3hrs. Laying dust sheets, picking them up, draining and refilling, adding inhibitor, writing invoice, hello and goodby etc all takes time.
The day rate here seems to 'support' what bernie is saying and the hourly rate 'supports' the others.
I would charge about 100 plus material to change a trv and hope to be gone in 3hrs. Laying dust sheets, picking them up, draining and refilling, adding inhibitor, writing invoice, hello and goodby etc all takes time.
R
REDSAW
how do you know he's not polish?.
anyhow, we still have costs to cover for advertising- mine £40 per week s-emp insurances etc £20 pw ish, thats £60 a week deductions less tax fuel etc.
so what bernie is stating is-
£15 ph x 40 (thats approx 50hr of my time less paperwork) = £600 pwk.
£600 pwk x 48 divided by 52 (who's paying my holiday's/bank holys?) = £542 pwk - £60 pwk min costs = £482 gross less say 25% tax n.i = £361. now if your not dependent on the non-existing state pension add this deduction say £25 pwk.
your now left with the sum of £336 per week net.
thats great, always wanted a successfull business that i could boast to my family that i am doing well only to find my niece working at asda earns the same just for turning up at work?.
i was going to ask, but took me of 10 seconds to work it out bernie, that you have allways worked on the books, am i right?. i am not having a go, but pointing out the obviouses you seem to be missing. however i think i know where you are comming from,
back in the day i worked on shop fitting teams and it was all job work. from one to the next all pretty much the same. all we had to do is turn up on time monday morning, taken to site then go home at weekends.- no costs all wages, that was 20 years ago and i was taking home £250 then?.
B
Bernie2
Hi! Redshaw.
Yes I did work on the books a lot, but have also worked for myself and been in management to find out what the market is really like.
Up here, the average hourly rate for Plumbing work on offer from the main customers was very low indeed. And I don't expect its any better now.
Plumbing companies don't seem to make their money in the straight forward way by charging high prices, now it seems.
They make it by working the odds.
In other words they take on say a tranche of 1,000 houses and offer a service at say £60 per house per year, for a gas service and any agreed faults that develop with the Plumbing system. The odds are, that out of that 1,000 houses only 20 or so may need large scale work doing costing in excess of £60.
British Gas do it.
A small company charging £40 per hour would not even get a look in. That is the market.
Most of our small companies up here, have now vanished, probably because of this, unless a small company can build up a loyal private clientèle prepared to pay the prices they ask, its hard to make a living.
Its pointless saying "I never worked most of the week, so I am going to load out the first job I get" all you do is price yourself out of the market.
The self employed rate I put up is from one of the lead bodies of Plumbing in the UK, representing 60,000 employed and self employed Plumbers. As I said you can check it yourself.
And as Hugh said, the self employed rate in Ireland is £15 per hour.
This is a snap shot of the competition you can expect when you set up in business as a Plumber.
And lets be honest, if you where an employer who would you take on?
A self employed Polish plumber at £12 per hour or a UK Plumber at £40?
Its bad enough I suppose for the self employed, after having been in the game for years, being undercut by Plumbers who have only done a short course.
But that is the market.
It doesn't really compare does it?
Of course we recognize all the costs and overheads involved in being self employed.
And your right its hard to survive on £15 per hour. But its perhaps better to know the market and give yourself time to think about how you can make it work for you, rather than just rely on being able to put your prices up whenever you get a cost increase. The thing is if you don't, somebody else probably will.
And as to Polish Plumbers, the EU is not going to stop migration within its boundaries. So Plumbers from low pay areas are going to be allowed to come in anyway. After all UK companies go in and under cut companies in their country.
And lets not forget, all the UK public probably want, is a job done at a fair price, and they probably don't mind who does it, so long as the job is okay.
Its the way the market works, you'd probably do the same if you where a customer.
You don't usually, want to go on paying what you may think are the high prices of the local Plumbers merchant?
No, you shop around for the cheapest who sells the same stuff. Its the way the market works.
The high price merchant then has to learn to cut costs and sell cheaper if he or she wants business.
Its the same for the employed and self employed Plumber.
Yes I did work on the books a lot, but have also worked for myself and been in management to find out what the market is really like.
Up here, the average hourly rate for Plumbing work on offer from the main customers was very low indeed. And I don't expect its any better now.
Plumbing companies don't seem to make their money in the straight forward way by charging high prices, now it seems.
They make it by working the odds.
In other words they take on say a tranche of 1,000 houses and offer a service at say £60 per house per year, for a gas service and any agreed faults that develop with the Plumbing system. The odds are, that out of that 1,000 houses only 20 or so may need large scale work doing costing in excess of £60.
British Gas do it.
A small company charging £40 per hour would not even get a look in. That is the market.
Most of our small companies up here, have now vanished, probably because of this, unless a small company can build up a loyal private clientèle prepared to pay the prices they ask, its hard to make a living.
Its pointless saying "I never worked most of the week, so I am going to load out the first job I get" all you do is price yourself out of the market.
The self employed rate I put up is from one of the lead bodies of Plumbing in the UK, representing 60,000 employed and self employed Plumbers. As I said you can check it yourself.
And as Hugh said, the self employed rate in Ireland is £15 per hour.
This is a snap shot of the competition you can expect when you set up in business as a Plumber.
And lets be honest, if you where an employer who would you take on?
A self employed Polish plumber at £12 per hour or a UK Plumber at £40?
Its bad enough I suppose for the self employed, after having been in the game for years, being undercut by Plumbers who have only done a short course.
But that is the market.
It doesn't really compare does it?
Of course we recognize all the costs and overheads involved in being self employed.
And your right its hard to survive on £15 per hour. But its perhaps better to know the market and give yourself time to think about how you can make it work for you, rather than just rely on being able to put your prices up whenever you get a cost increase. The thing is if you don't, somebody else probably will.
And as to Polish Plumbers, the EU is not going to stop migration within its boundaries. So Plumbers from low pay areas are going to be allowed to come in anyway. After all UK companies go in and under cut companies in their country.
And lets not forget, all the UK public probably want, is a job done at a fair price, and they probably don't mind who does it, so long as the job is okay.
Its the way the market works, you'd probably do the same if you where a customer.
You don't usually, want to go on paying what you may think are the high prices of the local Plumbers merchant?
No, you shop around for the cheapest who sells the same stuff. Its the way the market works.
The high price merchant then has to learn to cut costs and sell cheaper if he or she wants business.
Its the same for the employed and self employed Plumber.
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G
GreenArmy
You can justify £40 an hour because:-
The polish plumber is working for a firm that charge the customer £70 an hour. That £70 an hour will also be paying the Supervisor, Manager, Secretary, H&S bloke, Estimator, Accountant, Van costs ect ect ect. In fact the bigger the firm the more people to pay.
The self employed plumber is all of these or has to pay someone else to do it.
Now lets take mechanics for an example. I need my car fixing so i need to pay either an independent garage on average £40 to £50 an hour and get great service or go to one of the large dealers and pay £60 to £80 and hour for the young mechanic that works there on £13 an hour to fix my car. He is only on £13 an hour so is that all i should pay?
B
Bernie2
Hi! Mark
It does work quite like that does it?
A baker is skilled and has large outlays and has to do the books like everybody else, but who would a buy loaf if they where £10 each?
The idea of charging £40 an hour, started with Emergency call outs in the 80's. That was when there where shortages of Plumbers virtually every where, and people where desperate to get their jobs done, so companies could charge what they liked for working out of normal hours. But before that time all Plumbing work was done on an agreed daily or hourly rate far lower than £40. However the idea of initial high charges has stuck.
The problem is, there is probably no shortage of Plumbers now and so prices come down.
I mean lets be honest anybody would like to be able to charge whatever they liked and they can. But how much work do they get?
I've worked for companies that have gone for top dollar, instead of sticking to a reasonable pricing structure, because they felt they had too. But unfortuantly bankruptcy seemed to be the only thing on offer after the client found they could get cheaper prices elsewhere.
Yes we know all the paper work you have to do when your self employed. Your missing the point. If all garage customers where only prepared to pay,£13 an hour, what does the garage do then?
It either stops trading or cuts its costs to a reasonable level.
And let's be honest many garages work off fixed price menus, such as cheap MOT's or services.
They don't quote an hourly rate. But if you where to break down the cost you would probably find the rate was not as high as you may think.
And of course the same market applies to them. Its basically price fair to what the market will stand or don't, the choice is your own.
As to companies adding on to labour costs, well of course they do. But they don't as I said, seem to earn their money like that now.
As to costs, the Plumbing industry is a funny one. Every Plumber employed or self employed has to buy and maintain a tool kit and nowdays find a means to transport them about at their own cost. He or she also has to find some element toward the cost of training even if its just to pay for the time off.
So being a self employed Plumber is not exactly the same as in other industries nor is it for employed Plumbers. That is probably partly why the rates for self employed Plumbers is not all that much different than employed.
As to paperwork?
Well how much do you do on a gas service? In my experinece about 3 hours a day for an employed person if you take into account extra work charging.
The modern Plumber
It does work quite like that does it?
A baker is skilled and has large outlays and has to do the books like everybody else, but who would a buy loaf if they where £10 each?
The idea of charging £40 an hour, started with Emergency call outs in the 80's. That was when there where shortages of Plumbers virtually every where, and people where desperate to get their jobs done, so companies could charge what they liked for working out of normal hours. But before that time all Plumbing work was done on an agreed daily or hourly rate far lower than £40. However the idea of initial high charges has stuck.
The problem is, there is probably no shortage of Plumbers now and so prices come down.
I mean lets be honest anybody would like to be able to charge whatever they liked and they can. But how much work do they get?
I've worked for companies that have gone for top dollar, instead of sticking to a reasonable pricing structure, because they felt they had too. But unfortuantly bankruptcy seemed to be the only thing on offer after the client found they could get cheaper prices elsewhere.
Yes we know all the paper work you have to do when your self employed. Your missing the point. If all garage customers where only prepared to pay,£13 an hour, what does the garage do then?
It either stops trading or cuts its costs to a reasonable level.
And let's be honest many garages work off fixed price menus, such as cheap MOT's or services.
They don't quote an hourly rate. But if you where to break down the cost you would probably find the rate was not as high as you may think.
And of course the same market applies to them. Its basically price fair to what the market will stand or don't, the choice is your own.
As to companies adding on to labour costs, well of course they do. But they don't as I said, seem to earn their money like that now.
As to costs, the Plumbing industry is a funny one. Every Plumber employed or self employed has to buy and maintain a tool kit and nowdays find a means to transport them about at their own cost. He or she also has to find some element toward the cost of training even if its just to pay for the time off.
So being a self employed Plumber is not exactly the same as in other industries nor is it for employed Plumbers. That is probably partly why the rates for self employed Plumbers is not all that much different than employed.
As to paperwork?
Well how much do you do on a gas service? In my experinece about 3 hours a day for an employed person if you take into account extra work charging.
The modern Plumber
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A
alexclark
I am a newly qualified plumber and my instinct would be to drain down to fix this (as this was taught to us).
you suggested bungs? where can i get bungs and what would be the step by step once ive laid my dust sheets and prepared my tools?
regards
Alex
you suggested bungs? where can i get bungs and what would be the step by step once ive laid my dust sheets and prepared my tools?
regards
Alex
M
mrplumber
I dont see what the problem is - It seems quite obvious that Bernie is talking sence based on the rates - I live in manchester and its not unusable to see plumbers job advertised for £13 per hour It only looks a small amount because its only 30 minutes work...
The fact of the matter is that Bernie is speaking realistic!
The fact of the matter is that Bernie is speaking realistic!
G
GreenArmy
Yes we all know what an EMPLOYED plumber gets paid (I actually get paid less than £13 an hour), but the firm that is EMPLOYING the £13 an hour plumber is not charging the customer £13 an hour (more like £50,£60,£70 an hour). The £13 an hour plumber will possibly get a company van, mobile phone, 4 weeks paid leave, sick pay. And when he has a leak (yes every plumber will get one at some stage) it will go through his employers insurance. If the £13 an hour plumber is Gas Safe, his employer will pay his yearly fee's and future re-examination.
So to put it in simple terms it would be very unlikely that a customer wanting plumbing work carried out will get it done than less than £25 an hour (depending on type of job) and more realistically would be looking at £30 to £45 an hour for a reliable plumber. A big well known plumbing firm (who employ £13 an hour plumbers) will be charging more.
As well as working for a large employer (19 years with a local authority) i set up my own small plumbing business 14 months ago to learn the in's and out's of what is involved in working for myself. Lets just say unless i could guarantee £35 an hour, 40 hours a week, 47 weeks a year. I'll stay with my employer.
So to put it in simple terms it would be very unlikely that a customer wanting plumbing work carried out will get it done than less than £25 an hour (depending on type of job) and more realistically would be looking at £30 to £45 an hour for a reliable plumber. A big well known plumbing firm (who employ £13 an hour plumbers) will be charging more.
As well as working for a large employer (19 years with a local authority) i set up my own small plumbing business 14 months ago to learn the in's and out's of what is involved in working for myself. Lets just say unless i could guarantee £35 an hour, 40 hours a week, 47 weeks a year. I'll stay with my employer.
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- Messages
- 10,617
W
Winston
Round my way they are charging 60-70 + vat for a gas safe. 50-60 for general wet plumber. Plus call out, thats how I get my work 50 for 1st hour 30 there after plus materials.
R
radswilldo
Companies will always be more expensive than the stand alone man, regardless of business. If you want to charge £20 per hour, then do it, you will not last long. Anyone a tenner for a safety check, lovely
M
mrplumber
I take it your sticking with your employer then...lol
G
GreenArmy
Certainly for now, but still running my own business or the extra money. The good thing is, is the work comes to me through recommends and associates so i dont need to chase work or advertise (apart from the free internet stuff) and i dont rely on it to live. There could be a time in the near future when i take the full leap and it wouldnt faze me one bit.
R
REDSAW
nice post bernie, but where is up here?. shetland islands $7.50 an hour?.
as charging goes, as a plumbing fraternity we should all stick to our guns when posible, ignoring the immagrant plumbers who only need £2.50 an hour to be the highest paid people in their village. you will never beat them on price-never. all that would do is put yourself on the bread line, if you change your hourly rate to £10, someone will charge less still.
the people of britain know what they want. i dissagree what bernie says, it is not the cheapest price that counts, not 'down here' anyhow. it's about good local people who do a good job, looks trustworthy, speeks clear english, and have accountability (ie i know where your from) attitude. i have had customers who have bluntly told me that i am not the cheapest, but the other bloke was a right fat scruffy looking slob? so we chose you.
i am also the director of our family run haulage firm that has been going since the late 70's, see them come and go every year.
the same applies in this sector too. there are french, polish, latvians, nigerians and others in my immediate area, who have landed, bought a van and become a 'bloke and van we move it for £20 an hour' and they seem very busy.
does it bother us?. no. they run around like blue rse flies on a cowboy for little reward acustomed to life where they come from ie work hard for little return- just to survive.
the point is?.
they work say 25hrs a week @ £20 per = £500 pwk between the two of them. they get 250 new customers a year
we do 20hrs a week @ £55 per truck = £1'100 pwk each. we get 1500 new customers a year. and work 60% less for double the money.
does this make sense to you.
moral is - work smart not hard, unless you want to keep working in your 70's.
if there are 2 plumbers in my area who have 15 years exp, who are willing to work on a casual basis for £15ph please contact me as you can do my work for me and give me the remaining £15ph for sitting on my rse i shall be very happy.
as charging goes, as a plumbing fraternity we should all stick to our guns when posible, ignoring the immagrant plumbers who only need £2.50 an hour to be the highest paid people in their village. you will never beat them on price-never. all that would do is put yourself on the bread line, if you change your hourly rate to £10
, someone will charge less still.the people of britain know what they want. i dissagree what bernie says, it is not the cheapest price that counts, not 'down here' anyhow. it's about good local people who do a good job, looks trustworthy, speeks clear english, and have accountability (ie i know where your from) attitude. i have had customers who have bluntly told me that i am not the cheapest, but the other bloke was a right fat scruffy looking slob?
so we chose you.i am also the director of our family run haulage firm that has been going since the late 70's, see them come and go every year.
the same applies in this sector too. there are french, polish, latvians, nigerians and others in my immediate area, who have landed, bought a van and become a 'bloke and van we move it for £20 an hour' and they seem very busy.
does it bother us?. no. they run around like blue rse flies on a cowboy for little reward acustomed to life where they come from ie work hard for little return- just to survive.
the point is?.
they work say 25hrs a week @ £20 per = £500 pwk between the two of them. they get 250 new customers a year
we do 20hrs a week @ £55 per truck = £1'100 pwk each. we get 1500 new customers a year. and work 60% less for double the money.
does this make sense to you.
moral is - work smart not hard, unless you want to keep working in your 70's.
if there are 2 plumbers in my area who have 15 years exp, who are willing to work on a casual basis for £15ph please contact me as you can do my work for me and give me the remaining £15ph for sitting on my rse i shall be very happy
.
B
Bernie2
I fully understand your points.
But times are changing and I supposed we have to keep up with them.
The rates you quote could probably be found in many companies up here a few years ago. But there are more closed companies than open now.
It may not be as bad down South where there is still ample work for all.
But what if the idea of fixed price high turn over work catches on in London?
Many of the big companies even take on contracts at a fixed profit margin perhaps as low as 7%. On a £100,000 job that is £7,000, but they may have 20 jobs going the same size. And that is how they pay for all their staff.
Its not by charging a whopping big up front price.
Don't forget Easy Jet and Ryan Air make their millions by selling cheap and getting large crowds going to them, not by overloading prices.
That at least up here in the North of England seems to be the business model now being used.
But times are changing and I supposed we have to keep up with them.
The rates you quote could probably be found in many companies up here a few years ago. But there are more closed companies than open now.
It may not be as bad down South where there is still ample work for all.
But what if the idea of fixed price high turn over work catches on in London?
Many of the big companies even take on contracts at a fixed profit margin perhaps as low as 7%. On a £100,000 job that is £7,000, but they may have 20 jobs going the same size. And that is how they pay for all their staff.
Its not by charging a whopping big up front price.
Don't forget Easy Jet and Ryan Air make their millions by selling cheap and getting large crowds going to them, not by overloading prices.
That at least up here in the North of England seems to be the business model now being used.
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R
REDSAW
bernie.
you still have not answered where is up here?.
cheap air liners make their money from ferrying cargo hense baggage limitations on the cheap fares.
for any busiess that contracts are over £50,000 need to gross 11% to nett 4% profit.
4 or 5 years ago my family sold a business that i was involved in that had a t.o well over £28m p.a. usuall contracts from £30k to £1.5m typically in a seriously cut throat construction sector. in its hey day employed 350 people but the overall figure was the same at the end of the day irrespective of no/emp or t.o. that was a target of 11% and 4% respective. if memory serves thats £1m + proffit per year.
it is also probable that if you did construction/commercial you did work on our contracts from 35 years ago?. which paid i think £12ph.
W
Winston
I think in any business you have to be realistic at to the value of the work and service you provide and the risk you take in your business. As said previously I have seen a bathroom supplied and fitted here for £500. I didnt think much of it and I wouldnt want to be associated in that level of workmanship.
Dont get me wrong I am far from knowing all there is regarding bathrooms and to date I havent done one since trading maybe I price to high, but thats my rate.
Dont get me wrong I am far from knowing all there is regarding bathrooms and to date I havent done one since trading maybe I price to high, but thats my rate.
B
Bernie2
Hi Redsaw,
I think its generally accepted, trading circumstance is far different in London and possibly the whole South East, than it is anywhere else in the UK or should I say seems to be.
Isn't that why it appears that most people want to live there?
Further North people simply don't have the money to pay London prices, which are recognized as high by the amount of London weighting people get in their pay.
Yes you can, charge what you like down there, people will pay the prices, but where you trade you have to work within what people can afford.
Incidentally the Shetland Isle plumber probably gets quiet a lot for their work, there is little competition.
I suppose if your a company director in another trade you are not as reliant on Plumbing to earn a living anyway and that is a good position to be in.
It seems some of these guys have no other income source to supplement their income, though, other than Plumbing.
I feel sure they would prefer to work all week at a reasonable return than just rely on getting high price work every now and then?
There is nothing stopping you of course earning £100 an hour if you can. The market rate for a Bathroom install is perhaps £100, if you can install in 1 hour you make £100 per hour.
But will the market stand you saying "Its 4 hours work at £100 an hour?". I am not a Tory but Maggie Thatcher said "Easy profits are no good for industry!"
"It makes them complacent and they don't try to keep costs down or be as efficient as they could be" "Consequentially, when somebody comes into the market who can lower their prices because they are efficient and have a low cost base, they loose out"
How much of our UK manufacturing industry have we lost like that?
The North of England is all virtually empty spaces now where our industries once stood.
Why was all the fuss created when the Polish plumbers came over here?
They could do it cheaper that is why.
It may not be what we like but it seems to be the way things are going.
Incidentally GUKKI I think make about 250% on their stuff.
Fords like GM are nearly bankrupt.
The prices I quoted, as I said before are not my prices, they are the prices negotiated by the JIB for their probably thousands of self employed members.
They also grade their ordinary members according to qualification and experience. It was started, to get away from what some think as unfairness, in people new to the trade getting paid the same as the more experienced plumbers.
In self employment its probably fair to say that its the job you get paid for not your experience. Which basically is the way it should be.
Also many people on the forum are probably trying to work as sole traders not companies. If their work dries up during the credit crunch they may very well be forced into accepting work from the likes of Housing Associations who will probably offer them only the trade rates.
I am not against anybody making a decent living, its just that we have to be realistic about what that is likely to be. Lets be honest everybody called the government stupid for saying a person could earn £60,000 a year as a Plumber, but £40 works out at even more.
A sole trader does not have the same overheads as an employing company, the professionals in the likes of Housing Associations know that, that is why the self employed trade rate is fairly low.
We also of course have to include the customer in all this. If the money isn't there, can we expect them to pay high prices? Is that the image we want for the industry, its bad enough already?
I would also like to say, that I am not against teh self employed at all. I would welcome them into the industry, but they would have to relaise it won't be easy. It would be unfair of me not to tell them that.
Also, there are ways of making a lot of money and still give the customer a great deal.
You can of course go for the niche market and get excellent prices like I think Pimlico Plumbers do. But a niche market is not the same as the mass market that most self employed Plumbers proabably have to work in. In the mass market you have to pitch your price at what people are prepared to pay.
I think its generally accepted, trading circumstance is far different in London and possibly the whole South East, than it is anywhere else in the UK or should I say seems to be.
Isn't that why it appears that most people want to live there?
Further North people simply don't have the money to pay London prices, which are recognized as high by the amount of London weighting people get in their pay.
Yes you can, charge what you like down there, people will pay the prices, but where you trade you have to work within what people can afford.
Incidentally the Shetland Isle plumber probably gets quiet a lot for their work, there is little competition.
I suppose if your a company director in another trade you are not as reliant on Plumbing to earn a living anyway and that is a good position to be in.
It seems some of these guys have no other income source to supplement their income, though, other than Plumbing.
I feel sure they would prefer to work all week at a reasonable return than just rely on getting high price work every now and then?
There is nothing stopping you of course earning £100 an hour if you can. The market rate for a Bathroom install is perhaps £100, if you can install in 1 hour you make £100 per hour.
But will the market stand you saying "Its 4 hours work at £100 an hour?". I am not a Tory but Maggie Thatcher said "Easy profits are no good for industry!"
"It makes them complacent and they don't try to keep costs down or be as efficient as they could be" "Consequentially, when somebody comes into the market who can lower their prices because they are efficient and have a low cost base, they loose out"
How much of our UK manufacturing industry have we lost like that?
The North of England is all virtually empty spaces now where our industries once stood.
Why was all the fuss created when the Polish plumbers came over here?
They could do it cheaper that is why.
It may not be what we like but it seems to be the way things are going.
Incidentally GUKKI I think make about 250% on their stuff.
Fords like GM are nearly bankrupt.
The prices I quoted, as I said before are not my prices, they are the prices negotiated by the JIB for their probably thousands of self employed members.
They also grade their ordinary members according to qualification and experience. It was started, to get away from what some think as unfairness, in people new to the trade getting paid the same as the more experienced plumbers.
In self employment its probably fair to say that its the job you get paid for not your experience. Which basically is the way it should be.
Also many people on the forum are probably trying to work as sole traders not companies. If their work dries up during the credit crunch they may very well be forced into accepting work from the likes of Housing Associations who will probably offer them only the trade rates.
I am not against anybody making a decent living, its just that we have to be realistic about what that is likely to be. Lets be honest everybody called the government stupid for saying a person could earn £60,000 a year as a Plumber, but £40 works out at even more.
A sole trader does not have the same overheads as an employing company, the professionals in the likes of Housing Associations know that, that is why the self employed trade rate is fairly low.
We also of course have to include the customer in all this. If the money isn't there, can we expect them to pay high prices? Is that the image we want for the industry, its bad enough already?
I would also like to say, that I am not against teh self employed at all. I would welcome them into the industry, but they would have to relaise it won't be easy. It would be unfair of me not to tell them that.
Also, there are ways of making a lot of money and still give the customer a great deal.
You can of course go for the niche market and get excellent prices like I think Pimlico Plumbers do. But a niche market is not the same as the mass market that most self employed Plumbers proabably have to work in. In the mass market you have to pitch your price at what people are prepared to pay.
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W
Winston
Intresting how rates do vary across the country, I have only had two customers who have said thats alot. I would also be prepared to drop my rates but I was advised against it from local plumbers. But the cost of living is high where I am the average house price here is about 200k taking into account the drop in prices.
Many where I live commute to London as its easy to get to and obviously cheaper than London. Though I will admit many who work in the local industry here only earn £250 a week.
But I dont earn anywhere near 60k only been trading over a year first year t/o 25k was looking up but going quiet now, but I dont know whats round the corner. I for one go out in the evening many here turn there phones off.
Many where I live commute to London as its easy to get to and obviously cheaper than London. Though I will admit many who work in the local industry here only earn £250 a week.
But I dont earn anywhere near 60k only been trading over a year first year t/o 25k was looking up but going quiet now, but I dont know whats round the corner. I for one go out in the evening many here turn there phones off.
B
Bernie2
Hi! Winston,
Please don't get me wrong, I worked for a smashing small company at one time. But they where undercut so bad they could not cope with the competition from the big guys. As far as I know it wasn't only him it was a few other small companies as well.
Unfortunately work is scarce up here in the North West and most of the work is land lord or Housing Association. They as a business themselves, employ professional people whose job it is to get the best deal from self employed or small companies for their company.
A small company doesn't really have any say in the matter, other than to refuse or find a way to make a living from the rates on offer. But even then the big companies come in, to offer deals like those I have said and the small companies can't compete.
It's a case of having to think up new ways to do the same thing in ways that pay.
I've worked for the big companies as well, and you have to motor as I said at least 12 services a day are expected and you do most of the paperwork. But they are in the same boat, they have to ask the men to do that to make a living.
Your fortunate down South in having a well off clientèle, but its not usually like that up North.
I am stopping my mails to this thread now its gone on for ages. Its been very interesting to read all the different points of view.
Anyway! Good Fortune to your business.
Please don't get me wrong, I worked for a smashing small company at one time. But they where undercut so bad they could not cope with the competition from the big guys. As far as I know it wasn't only him it was a few other small companies as well.
Unfortunately work is scarce up here in the North West and most of the work is land lord or Housing Association. They as a business themselves, employ professional people whose job it is to get the best deal from self employed or small companies for their company.
A small company doesn't really have any say in the matter, other than to refuse or find a way to make a living from the rates on offer. But even then the big companies come in, to offer deals like those I have said and the small companies can't compete.
It's a case of having to think up new ways to do the same thing in ways that pay.
I've worked for the big companies as well, and you have to motor as I said at least 12 services a day are expected and you do most of the paperwork. But they are in the same boat, they have to ask the men to do that to make a living.
Your fortunate down South in having a well off clientèle, but its not usually like that up North.
I am stopping my mails to this thread now its gone on for ages. Its been very interesting to read all the different points of view.
Anyway! Good Fortune to your business.
C
ComfortHeating
How on earth can Bernie even afford to work? People like him need to stop devaluing our trade.. One thing he has forgotten to include in his price is that plumbers have outgoings. Eg. Vehicle payments, fuel, tools, etc. If I were to work for you my rent wouldn't be covered let alone food bill.
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