Not all Rads getting hot

[deden56]

I have a Glowworm flexcom 24 Kw condensing boiler which was fitted 2 years ago.The prevous boiler was too small 50,00 btu's which I was running 9 rads from.Even with the old bolier I was never able to have all the rads on at the same time.I have tried balancing them with no change.I joined another site which was supposed to supply good tradesmen but the experience was very expensive.They came out after 2and a half hours I was charged £140 for investgating the problem.Then the next time I was told the 2 way zone valve was fitted back to front & I needed a cylinder stat which I did know to be true for safety reasons and they said the cylinder was taking all the heat and that was the reason I couldnt heat all the rads.They said I also needed a 3 way zone valve and a room stat as the temp for the rads was controlled by TRV's only.Because of attitude ,dirty work and 3 leaks caused by them and a total of £340 and unreliability on thier part I decided to cut my losses.I have been told by another plumber who I know Is Gasafe reg'ed that because of my set up I cant have a 3 way valve fitted to this system and he says I should get a seperate zone valve for the water.I think I have a s plan and not a Y I can upload a pic of the piping If anyone would like to see it.Because I have noidea about this I need to know I am getting the correct advise.Any advise is greatly welcome

 

[SimonG]

Picture paints a thousand words, please post it.

 

[diamondgas]

deden56, if the system didn't heat all the radiators B4 then replacing the heat source won't make that much difference! I've seen systems with 20+ rads on a 15kW boiler work fine! Did the heating work satisfactory after installation of the new boiler?

 

[deden56]

No all 9 rads have never worked at the same time even after new boiler.

 

[diamondgas]

Wouldn't you have thought the installer of your new boiler would have given you at least that guarantee 2 year ago?

It sounds like you have an inherent problem with the circulation around your heating system deden56. Could you let us know what size pipes are supplying your radiators, 8,10, or 15mm? Have you had your system flushed?

And finaly did you collect the horse dodo from the drive as the cowboy's left ... LOL Just kiddn'

 

[deden56]

 

[deden56]

15 mm pipes not been flushed but system has been drained 5 times in the last week and the water was very clear.can up any other pics you need of pipe work

 

[deden56]

I'm not sure what work thety did to zone valve pipe work or If they just turned it around I know they made changes to some pipe work under the floor boards I will try and up a video when I can sus how to.

 

[diamondgas]

That's a central heating pump and zone valve fitted under your bath!!! Shheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!!! (gas-engineers sharp intake of breath) Was not expecting to see that! LOL ...

 

[deden56]

By your reaction this is not good practice.The plumber I contacted today said he will put a new pump and the original zone valve and a second one in the cylinder space.He said that a 3 way valve could not be used with the 24 KW boiler not sure if he said because of pipe size.

 

[deden56]

can someone give me some info on uploading a vid .I know there is different ways youtube etc but the easiest will do

 

[diamondgas]

denden56,
It's good practise to put the components in question somewhere easily accessible. Not sure if under the bath contravenes electrical regs? Someone here'll tell you that one. That's bye the bye!

The zoning of the heating and hot water will certainly give you more control but may not resolve the circulation issues you've had prior to the new boiler being installed, you may well end up disappointed once more. Try and get some re-assurances from your plumber or at least make him/her aware of what you hope to gain from the work you're paying them for. Personally I couldn't guarantee that the moving of the pump and fitting of the zone valves would resolve the issue but it would be the first stage in updating the existing system to current requirements and making a 'bad' installation much better. You never know, it may be all that is needed!

 

[unguided1]

where abouts in the country are you deden56 as I am sure someone on this forum will be close to you and will be able to give you some impartial advice

 

[deden56]

I'm in Liverpool

 

[unguided1]

too far fer me unless I was up that way, any takers??

 

[deden56]

The pump had to be renewed last november after getting a fault code on boiler

 

[unguided1]

So where in your property is the boiler is it down stairs? and I am assuming the bathroom is upstairs? so are there any air vents or aavs on the system?

 

[deden56]

The boiler is in the kitchen directly below the bathroom where the pump & zone valve are situated in pics there is a header tank which was fitted when I got the cylinder changed from primatic not sure what aavs is but if it's an auto vent no not got one.

 

[deden56]

The plumbers who came out made changes to pipe work I can take a pic as it will be easier than trying to explain

 

[deden56]

 

[deden56]

As you can see in 2nd pic the middle pipe has been capped and a valve fitted on the other disconnected end which was on the pipe that has been reconnected with plastic fittings pics 3 & 4 are in correct order as they enter cupboard.As you look at pic # 3 the top pipe oes to the bottom of cylinder and branches either to or from c/heating header tank.The middle pipe on pic # 4 goes to upper pipe going into cylinder and goes to or from c/heating header.

 

[HHP Ed]

Deden, did your plumber move the pump when he did this new work. As having the pump installed with the body facing up like that would cause air to be trapped reducing circulation and burn your pump out faster. Which could be part of the problem.

 

[deden56]

No the pump has been positioned there since the previous one.This room was originally a bedroom before making It the bathroom approximately 15 years ago.All pipe work was done at the same time

 

[deden56]

Can someone advise what I need to get checked first .Please read all of this subject ,I dont have a working boiler at present.

 

[diamondgas]

dedens56,
You need to get the pipework configuration to the header tank sorted out! From what you're describing the pipes to the header tank are wrongly positioned! I'd advise that you ask your plumber about making your system a sealed system! It also sounds like your system needs a good cleaning out (powerflush). And, of course, the pump etc moved somewhere accessible. You can only really assess flushing and sealing on site, it all depends on whether it's a viable proposition or not. Alternatively it'll be a total re-pipe! Only that decision can be made between yourself and the person you employ to carry out the work.

I personally would be shopping around with the knowledge you now have, keep getting quotes until you are happy with the plumber. Good luck!

Keep checking for pm's (private messages) here. If there's a local plumber reading this thread they may well contact you!

 

[deden56]

Is the 2 zone valves the best option with the cyilnder stat and room stat.

 

[diamondgas]

deden56, a diverter valve and properly balanced system can work just as well as 2 zone valves, properly balanced. 2 or more valves becomes more of a benefit as the system size grows.. In my opinion!

 

[deden56]

I have had another plumber in he says the original system was a one pipe system before I had work done.New boiler,Hot water cistern moved upstairs from kitchen to bathroom and new rads added to the system in the kitchen.Some 2 pipe system has been added this is why the rads are not heating fully and It needs to be changed to a 2 pipe system.I dont know if this is correct.I have also been told by another plumber that because the cistern did not have a stat it was drawing alo of the heat away from the rads.I am getting more confused and dont know what option to go for.

 

[diamondgas]

It sounds like you have a right mess of a heatin system if what they are saying is correct. It depends on how urgent this is for you to be honest deden56. you could get yourself a couple more quotes to cement your understanding and go with the one you trust or stick with one of the plumbers you've had out so far.

It certainly isn't good to have a mixture of heating designs and one pipe systems have their problems.

If the system was poor before the new boiler was fitted then replacing the system will ultimately be the best option. It depends on how far the funds will stretch as to what you have done! Ultimately this is going to be your call.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

I agree with diamondgas,your option is to re pipe the system to two pipe system and make it sealed system ! better sort it out once and forget about it ,will cost but is adding value to your home if thinking to sell one day IMHO

 

[deden56]

Is a 24kw big enough for 9 rads

 

[diamondgas]

More than big enough unless your house has no loft insulation and 20ft ceilings

 

[deden56]

It is an end of terrace with high cielings.It has a cellar which I have put rock wool between joists and boarded so the lounge does not get the cold from below.

 

[diamondgas]

It is an end of terrace with high cielings.It has a cellar which I have put rock wool between joists and boarded so the lounge does not get the cold from below.

It should be more than big enough! Your installer is the best to ask though as he's the one seeing the job yeh?

 

[SafeGasInstall]

24 KW combi or system boiler ????

 

[deden56]

24 KW combi or system boiler ????

It's a Glow worm flexicom 24kw hx

 

[deden56]

Here's an update on where I'm up to.

A plumber found system piped up wrong & changed to Y plan with 3 port valve.He isolated the C/H circuit & found restriction in boiler or coil.Temp rises fast on boiler 49 degrees cent to 74 degrees in 40 seconds 9Been told this could be blockage in the heat exchanger )then boiler stops F7 error (Glow worm flexicom 24 kw hx) comes up a lot of clicking while boiler is heating up and cooling down (Not heard this before).The casing on the C/H circ pump gets that hot I cant hold my fingers on it.2 rads have TRV's at wrong end.I have been advised to get a power flush.This boiler has an aluminium heat exchanger I read somewhere that it makes a difference to what you can flush with?

 

[doitmyself]

He isolated the C/H circuit & found restriction in boiler or coil.Temp rises fast on boiler 49 degrees cent to 74 degrees in 40 seconds 9Been told this could be blockage in the heat exchanger )

The casing on the C/H circ pump gets that hot I cant hold my fingers on it.

Has the pump been checked? The fast temperature rise could be due to a faulty pump, which could be the reason for the very hot pump. In any case the pump is installed incorrectly as the shaft should always be horizontal, not vertical as in your pics. The installer should have drawn this to your attention.

Grundfos say: Pumps should not be installed with the shaft in a vertical plane, as this may lead to dry running of the top bearing, noise and possible pump failure.

2 rads have TRV's at wrong end.

This is only true if they are one-direction TRVs. If they are modern bi-directional TRVs it doesn't matter which end they go. Look on the metal body of the TRV for one or two arrows. If there is only one arrow the TRV must be installed so the arrow shows direction of flow (towards rad on the flow - hotter pipe, away from rad on return - cooler pipe). It there are two arrows at 90 degrees, it's a bidirectional TRV and can go on either end.

It doesn't matter if a TRV is on the flow or return; all it is doing is controlling the rate of flow through the rad.

 

[diamondgas]

Hi deden56 ... Sound like your heating system is really struggling to circulate water around it. As said before, without seeing how things are configured its a difficult call regards flushing or re-piping! Really depends on how bad it is. If the concern is with the boiler heatex though they could easily bi-pass flushing the boiler by piping it out. May be an option considering the different ages between boiler and system!

 

[deden56]

The pump was only changed last Monday 24/07/2011 and it is now vertical.

 

[deden56]

The TRV's only have one arrow and the 2 that are wronrg point into the rad but they are on the return side.

 

[deden56]

New Y plan in airing cupboard with 3 way port.TRV with arrow pointing in which is at return end.If you look back you will see old layout under bath.

 

[doitmyself]

The TRV's only have one arrow and the 2 that are wrong point into the rad but they are on the return side.

Instead of moving it to the other end, the TRV just needs to be turned on its side, swapping over the inlet and outlet. Having the control horizontal is theoretically better as it does not get influenced by the heat rising from the pipe.

Alternatively replace them with modern bi-directional TRVs and keep them on the same end with the head vertical.

 

[deden56]

as a long shot I checked the direction arrow for flow on the C/H pump it was ok

 

[deden56]

I have had a power flush on the advise of a plumber who did the Y plan with no change still have poor circulation.I have a plan of how it is piped and what the plumber who flushed it said.It's an excel file is it possible to upload it to here?

 

[deden56]

I can send it in an email If anyone wants to view it.

 

[deden56]

diamondgas can you message me with contact email so I can send plan.

 

[diamondgas]

Consider it done ...

 

[deden56]

Consider it done ...

Have sent you the plan.If the heat exchanger is blocked is it a new one or can it be cleaned.It's a Glow worm Flexicom hx 24kw.I know it's an aluminium exchanger.

 

[rapid]

Call: John 07738686793 he's from the Wirral very experience plumber or go to his website PLUMBERS NORTHWEST - Home