Hot Water Copper Cylinder - Indirect ( DIY Job)

[alexrobot]

Hi Guys,


I want to replace my hot water cylinder with a bigger one and since I don't have too much space available it seems that I need a custom one.


I did try to find one with the right diameter & height at local big DIY Shops but couldn't...hence I asked my best friend Google about hot water cylinders...and after some research I found some manufactured online by Manley and Newark Copper Cylinder...both seem to have good prices...but since I'm not in the trade and only doing a diy job for me...never heard o them and cannot find too many reviews apart from their websites.


I have a gravity system so I need a Vented Hot Water Cylinder - Indirect...which is not that complicated but I noticed the warranty on most of these copper cylinders is either 2 or 5 years, predominantly with 2 years.


I remember my granddad telling me: Son, copper is for life ...always bet on copper and basic warranty was for 25 years min.


I am looking only at Grade 3 as I only need for max 10m but should I be worried about this? should I go for Grade 1?
I don't really want to replace this cylinder in 5 years time because the hard water done some damage...




Also I noticed that I can ask to install a shower outlet which I need for my shower pump...but it doesn't mention to be an Essex flange which I was recommended by someone; is this outlet still good?


The last thing is the insulation thickness which if it's below 50mm then it will not be according to British Standards ( Part L?) as I understand.
What I need is a cylinder with diameter ( including insulation) not bigger than 450mm; so I was thinking to buy either one with 350mm diameter and 50mm insulation or one with 400mm diameter and 25mm insulation.


Can the 25mm diameter be that bad and waste so much heat? The cupboard is part of my room and next to it is the bathroom so the heat will go in the house ...well, that's my thinking to get away with 25mm but what do you think?




My Questions will be:






1.Any good or bad experiences with online Manley Copper Cylinders & Newark ? any others recommended?
2.Should I worry about the Grade 3 ones with 2 years warranty?
3.Is the Shower outlet a good option? or better to ask for an Essex flange?
4.Is it that bad to go for 25mm insulation thickness?




I know that it might look silly to think that much about a hot water cylinder but prefer to do my homework before doing a job.


I appreciate any help, thx
Alex

 

[Reg Man]

Up your grade, if you want piece of mind. Grade 3 is standard so don't last to long.

 

[drip-dry]

Do you need a bigger cylinder or just one with a quicker recovery rate....

 

[Best]

There might be vented stainless steel cylinders made in a size to suit you.
I would sometimes be prepared to shave a slice of the side of the insulation on a cylinder to squeeze it in a tight spot, but only if I have no choice.
The Essex flanges are to be avoided in my opinion - they have soft rubber seal and cannot take much heat. You can get an extra tapping on side of cylinder near top, if you wished, or connect shower hot another method.

 

[Best]

On the point of Grade of copper cylinders, - I know that Grade 3 has a Grade 2 base (thicker) but I know some Grade 2 cylinders only have same base.
Grade 3 cylinders are 0.7mm thick sides and 1.2mm base I think.

 

[alexrobot]

Thanks Guys,

Ok, I think I will go for Grade 1 for peace of mind.
The only reason I need a bigger cylinder is to allow to have power shower for longer than 10 mins .

I don't have a pump right now but I bought a 3 bar one ; I have a separate electric shower + the gravity pressure which is not great but does the job when needed.

My neighbour has the same cylinder size as mine ( 1050mm height with 400 diameter) and with a 3 bar pump it only takes aprox. 10 min to empty the cylinder. I have space in the cupboard to go for 1800mm height if needed...only diameter is the issue and cannot go more than 450mm with insulation; at the moment I have 2 insulation jackets which can be fitted around but with the fixed foam it would be different.

Great idea to shave off some insulation if a must, thanks!

The shower outlet which they mention can be installed on one side...but don't know what type of outlet they refer to...; will ask them but I suppose they will say: The best one .

 

[JCSPLUMBING]

Thanks Guys,

Ok, I think I will go for Grade 1 for peace of mind.
The only reason I need a bigger cylinder is to allow to have power shower for longer than 10 mins .

I don't have a pump right now but I bought a 3 bar one ; I have a separate electric shower + the gravity pressure which is not great but does the job when needed.

My neighbour has the same cylinder size as mine ( 1050mm height with 400 diameter) and with a 3 bar pump it only takes aprox. 10 min to empty the cylinder. I have space in the cupboard to go for 1800mm height if needed...only diameter is the issue and cannot go more than 450mm with insulation; at the moment I have 2 insulation jackets which can be fitted around but with the fixed foam it would be different.

Great idea to shave off some insulation if a must, thanks!

The shower outlet which they mention can be installed on one side...but don't know what type of outlet they refer to...; will ask them but I suppose they will say: The best one .

Have you upgraded your cold water storage cistern? A power shower also needs a big cold water storage capacity to feed it. With a 3 bar shower longer than 10mins, I'd be looking at a 100 gallons. Then you also have the issue of weight on the joists.

 

[Rckape]

Don't get too caught up about the shower outlet. The manufacturer won't be using an Essex flange. It will be a permanent tapping brazed onto the copper - you don't really get a more reliable seal.

 

[alexrobot]

JCS: I only have 273L cold water tank ( 60 gallons) ; I have big joists every 30cm ...I suppose a bigger tank should be ok...and I thought I have a big tank .

Rckape: Ok, thanks; that sounds great.

I called both manufacturers and they mentioned that there shouldn't be a big issue with 25mm insulation thickness but one of them recommended 50mm minimum.

 

[JCSPLUMBING]

If you want to shower for longer then I would recommend increasing your cold water storage cistern size and your hot water storage cylinder. You can connect another to it using 28mm pipe, this will effectively double your shower time. You would need to blank your old cold shower feed and relocate it to the new cistern to encourage flow and so it doesn't stagnate in there.

 

[Worcester]

Newark will quite happily build you a custom cylinder to your spec.

 

[alexrobot]

Newark will quite happily build you a custom cylinder to your spec.

So Newark are the good ones ? someone else told me the same; it's a shame they don't have estimate prices on their site like others at least to have an idea.

JCS: I can barely fit one in my cupboard ...no place for 2 and don't have space to build another cupboard or put the cylinder...

 

[Best]

Think JCS meant your cold water tank could have a second tank added.
If you do fit a second cwt, use one for cold feed & the other for hot feed & fit a ball valve to each tank

 

[JCSPLUMBING]

If you read that again mate you'll notice that I said increase both sizes (cwsc and hot water storage)not add another hot water storage cylinder:smiley2:

 

[antdad]

I've got 15mm secondary return on my SS cylinder but was thinking of cutting an Essex to fit a shower pump as I can't get any salamander/Surrey to fit, you think that'll be enough?

 

[alexrobot]

JCS and Best,

I've done all the calculations today and I can only go for 1500mm x 450mm ( including insulation) for the Hot Water Cylinder and I cannot have a bigger Cold Water tank as I won't be able to put it in the attic...won't fit through the attic door; so my only chance is to have another Cold Water tank next to the current one and then connect them...but I suppose that mains to one tank should be enough...the other one will get the water from the pipe connection.

What do you think about 25mm insulation for HWC? it will allow me to have bigger capacity.

 

[JCSPLUMBING]

Is there any reason you have to have a 3 bar shower pump? Sometimes a little compromise can save you a boat load of money. If you downsized to a 1.5 bar shower pump you will have double the shower time and not spend anything. The pump it self would also be cheaper as would your water bill.

 

[Best]

My point about putting a ballvalve on each tank if you do fit an extra tank is that the water will be less dormant. Also better just to use one tank for cold draw off & other for hot. You will always be blending the waters anyway.
Why do you need massive amounts of water just to shower? Most of the water just goes down the drain. Low flow shower = extra time in shower perhaps to get well soaked. High flow shower should = a few minute shower to get well washed.

 

[Worcester]

Insulation, no, it won't meet building regs.

Consider also other tank suppliers: JouleUK, also very accommodating on specials. When they quote a width that includes the pipe bushes, so we managed to get a 550 mm cylinder through a 525 mm loft hatch

They have 450mm diameter ones in sizes from 100 litre (925mm high) up to 230 litre (2000 high)

 

[alexrobot]

the only reason for buying a 3 bar pump is that I had less than 3 bars in the past and did not like the power shower...maybe something else was wrong but there wasn't too much pressure.


Worcester,

Yes, I know the Part L regulations but is it that bad to have 25mm insulation?...I've only seen one cylinder to a friend of mine with 20 mm - 30 mm insulation and he said his bills are the same...don't know what to believe.


Now since I started to cut some pipes to make space for the bigger cylinder I thought to change some stopcock valves with full bores valves ...is this a bad idea? some people say to replace with new stopcok ones some say that full bore valves are much better.

 

[JCSPLUMBING]

Have you ever done any plumbing? Some pipes have specific distances apart for a reason, it doesn't just connect together and work. Do you know how to recommission it? Deal with airlocks? full bore valves are fine btw.

 

[alexrobot]

yeah, done diy plumbing to my previous house...all pipes for bathroom never had an issue, maybe I was just lucky .

I'm only removing some old pipes ...probably from a previous installation and not connected anywhere...probably left there just in case there is a need for them from the attic or just because the plumber had no time to remove them; and while I was doing this I noticed that the stopcock wasn't functioning properly ( really old one) on some "live" pipes which I need so I thought it's a good idea to change those as well?...wanted to know if to change them with a stopcock or use a full bore valve which I thought will be better and looks nicer

 

[JCSPLUMBING]

Well I wish you luck mate. If you get stuck then you know where we are

 

[Best]

Stopcocks really only for on mains supply to a house or on mains to an electric shower. Everything else better full flow valves and use the lever ones on pipes from cold tank and to pump both hot & cold supplies.
Some showers are very open heads - like the overhead type & also the numerous jet showers. They would benefit from 3bar pump, but most showers just require 2 bar really.

 

[alexrobot]

Thanks guys, yes in case something doesn't work I will call for help...hope you're close to SW London .

I bought a big square overhead shower ...cannot wait to use it .

One Full Bore valve 22mm to be used on the pipe from cold tank to HWC and one full bore valve 15mm to be used on the mains which comes into the cupboard...so still better stopcock for mains? on my previous house and a previous flat I had the valves with the lever and it was so much better but if stopcock still better no issue as I have a new one to replace the old and stiff one.

 

[JCSPLUMBING]

The mains that comes into the cupboard can be changed to a full bore as they are more reliable to isolate your loft tank(s)

 

[alexrobot]

thank you for confirming JCS, yes it looks much easier to isolate with the full bore one than with the stopcock.

My Newark HWC arrives tomorrow...hopefully in good condition and no issues...just connect and ready to shower .

 

[alexrobot]

Got my Newark HWC today...they forgot to install the drain not good, now I have to do it from the pipe.

I'll give them 7 out of 10 for customer service...will update with the built quality once installed.
The other company was much more friendly but a bit late with pricing hence I went with Newark...price was aprox. the same on both.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Got my Newark HWC today...they forgot to install the drain not good, now I have to do it from the pipe.

I'll give them 7 out of 10 for customer service...will update with the built quality once installed.
The other company was much more friendly but a bit late with pricing hence I went with Newark...price was aprox. the same on both.

have you phoned them up and told them?

 

[alexrobot]

have you phoned them up and told them?

Yes, I did; the guy said sorry &...well, you can run it from the pipe; he said that there was no extra cost attached to it or maybe £2 but when I called first time he said that the drain will have a cost attached....more than £2.

Also the measurement was off for the return from the boiler...I only noticed tonight so probably will call on Monday ...will see as I already sorted it out.

Anyway if I will have another custom boiler to order in the future I will try somewhere else.

 

[alexrobot]

got another Q:

I've got all pipes in place fitting perfectly to the new cylinder and I thought that before connecting all up to do a mains clean flush...

I removed all radiators and gave them a good clean in the garden and now thinking to do as in Tom's video( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJWlPDxMnCM) in order to clean all the pipes.

1. Isolate CH pump and Boiler or just the pump?
2. As the HWC is not connected, add a pipe from flow to return to imitate the coil
2.5 do the same trick with the pipe for each section where a radiator was in place.
3. connect both pipes as in the video and then leave it until clean water comes out ( the water wasn't dirty when I flushed the system first time...so it shouldn't be that bad)

...then put all back add inhibitor...etc.

I know that not isolating the Boiler there is the risk of adding more sludge into the boiler rather than cleaning it but if the pipes where not that dirty when flushing the system is it worth it?

 

[Chalked]

How much sludge came out of your radiators?
If there wasn't much, don't waste your time.

 

[JCSPLUMBING]

Don't bother mate. The majority of sludge will be in your rads. If you wanted to be picky you could add a cleaner in your f&e header tank before you fill back up and let it circulate for about a week then drain down again. Then put your inhibitor in.

 

[alexrobot]

It wasn't too much sludge...just some black stuff for few seconds and then clear water on all rads; I used a rubber hammer just in case there was more and put the hose on both sides but there wasn't too much; F&E tank was fairly clean as well...just some dirt at the bottom, something like dust/sand from the loft more than sludge .

I cleaned both tanks anyway ( F&E and Main Cold Water one) and will add F1 to the F&E...then run the mains...hopefully all goes well.

Thank again guys.

 

[alexrobot]

Got my HWC up and running and the 3 bar shower pump! ...amazing pressure! quite a difference.

Had an issue at first, all rads were hot but there was no hot water for bathroom and kitchen so I've done some reading on the forum and did what someone suggested: add a hose pipe from main into venting pipe for the F & E tank until all the bubbles were gone and Voila --> Hot Water sorted.

Good Project! ...now will check it for few days and balance/bleed rads when/if needed and hopefully all Ok...well, the real test is Winter Time!