condemned boilers and appliances

[Puddle]

Would you or would you not try to reinstate a 'immediately dangerous' boiler /appliance if a customer rang up,saying their boiler had been condemned\labeled 'immediately dangerous' and capped off
Say they had the paper work,burning incorrectly,maybe spilling and you thought a good service and clean or a new burner or multifunctional gas valve could rectify the situation or would you think not worth the risk,if you get up and running perfect and something happened in a month or so,even if not related,I could end up in big do do !!

 

[newbie1]

had this the other day no hesitation condemned on the spot dodgy llord had sent a succession of john wayne to relight it

 

[unguided1]

I would have no problems with reinstating any appliance provided that it was repaired, serviced or reinstated, properly and to the book.

The Paper work is only really relevant until something is changed, a bit like an MOT on a car, provided that you leave a safety certificate on the day you have done the work and all is fine there should be no problem.

You have to remember you are there to protect the customer and yourself, If you really consider the appliance too dangerous to reinstate then dont touch, But I would still look at the appliance because there are some characters out there who cant be bothered to service, or repair appliances and insist on replacing servicable appliances.

BG are company that do this by claiming that if the parts for an appliance are not on their company list you cant get the part and the appliance must be replaced, But you go to any parts supplier and usually you can purchase what you need

 

[Mbear]

Would be reluctant to take the job on.

For talking sake
If it was a suited up back boiler, then I clean it out, test it again and it works perfect now, I'd still be worried it's gona do it again in a month or so. In this case I'd be checking everything twice... vent reqd, burner pressure, gas rate, spillage checks(with&without any house extractor fans etc running), flue flow continuity Inc loft checks of flue. If all is ok but my gut feeling says leave it ID then that's what I'll do. I've never been comfy Reinstating an ID unless I personally found the issue and did the rework myself.

Definetaly a difficult circumstance

 

[Bernie2]

I would agree with unguided1.

Gas servicing is always going to be a bit dodgy for the gas fitter. Lets be honest you don't only sign for the appliance but also for all the pipework in the house being okay.

So who rips up the floor to have a look if it is?

No we probably do a drop test and hope it is.

So a fire if it passes all the recognised tests and you feel its safe should be okay.

Don't forget you do have latitude to make your own decisions, beside what the regs say, but not usually in contradiction to them.

You have to remember of course that you may be required to prove why you think its safe or unsafe.

I suppose that is why people follow the regs, they can point to them as proof instead of having to prove it themselves.

 

[Blackcatgas]

I want an easy life.... so no.

 

[Assessor Gas]

Simple. There are regulated tests that involve firstly a visual inspection, location, clearances, signs of distress, then there are Service inspection tests that confirm a free air path all the way from the outside air (For every Appliance) all the way to the mixing area, then there are gas service checks that involve inspecting the gas carrying components, upto the injector, then igntion devices, and clear flueway from the combustion area - These normally indicate the faults, then the test to confirm complete combustion, from is it getting the right amount of gas at the right pressure, and is it oxygenated correctly (ie flame pic or flue gas or both), Then if OF your flue performance tests. etc etc, all of these required inspections/tests then have their own sub headings to correctly identify the cause. if its installation then hey RIDDOR Time, If its old age, then new appliance, if its lack of service, then service it, if its worn parts, replace them. Isn't that what we get paid for.

If the appliance passes all your required tests and you have used your common sense, then it should be in service. Individual engineers will chose to either shut down immediately and wash their hands whilst more confident engineers will look for the cause and tackle it straight on. The list above just touches on the centre of your examinations, because there are a whole host of reaons why an appliance will not perform correctly, and 90% of the time evdience of this is visual. If you are professional you will offer the service you are paid for because you will be competent and confident in your call. remember the Unsafe Situations Manual is for advise only and is not gospel, you being the responsible person on site will use all your knowledge to address any unsafe situation to identify the cause and repatriation for a charge of course. This is why the Registration scheme is run on behalf of the HSE. The Badge means thats who you represent. Many appliances are put out of action daily because the engineer lacks the experience and knowhow to look further, or make a strong, firm decision based on actual evidence and facts. As an engineer i would never turn down a job, and one like this is always a challenge, WOW let me at it !, That's the feeling you want. You are being called for your expertise.
Good Luck Out There

 

[Puddle]

Well actually most of the time you are not called for your experience ,you are called because the customer is looking for the cheapest way out of the situation to get the appliance back on
I was not really referring to boilers or appliances you are called to that are working or have broken down, obviously the above applies and now I have a check list ,thank you
I was more referring to the telephone calls you get were an engineer has labelled the boiler immediately dangerous capped and left, in all fairness, it maybe he just does inspections and not repairs ,maybe he cannot be bothered with responsibility, either way it has come back to you, are going to a appliance that has been isolated and capped, do you except the challenge or just give a quote for a replacement.
Are you going to get paid, if you uncap it go through all the tests and find that indeed it is beyond repair, you may have to buy parts that are special order and non returnable
If you are working for a housing association or professional organisation ,you may but many will take into account the age of the unit and maybe cut their losses and replace anyway, also sometime I find myself going through the motions, just to be allowed to quote for required works
The bring it on attitude is great but does not put food on the table, however if you do manage to repair a boiler, at a great saving to the customer, when other have said its no longer any good, it does give you a lot of satisfaction.
I have a general rule that if the appliance is over 14/15 years .I do not generally attempt to repair, there are exceptions and my reason may not be because I can not do repair, I then worry as due to age of boiler ,are other things going to wrong with it
Back boilers, are one of the exceptions, in reasonable condition, now you can get co alarms, at a realistic price, this helps,
But then again as a friend says, if the customer has had the back boiler 15 years and serviced it once when thermocouple went, and despite knowing how dangerous it is to not have the unit serviced, he has allowed it to get all clogged up and now sooted, allowing carbon monoxide to be generated for his family the breath in ,is he really responsible enough to have that appliance cleaned out and left in his care, for him to do the same again the answer is no, not our decision really but...the same goes for other appliances

 

[Bernie2]

I must admit I feel once again it comes down to education. The average householder has probably got no idea perhaps that his appliances is burning wrong.

As to getting it serviced, they have to know it needs one before they do.

The thing is the onus of the Gas Regs are imposed just as much on the appliances responsible person as they are on the gas fitter. Once again ordinary people don't usually know that either.

And without the knowledge of how an appliance should work as opposed to how it is working are they likely to get without easy access to the knowledge of how they do work.

Its a bit like expecting a person to make a cake who had no idea how to cook or read a recipe. And we are supposedly trying to make people safe.

And lets be honest a service only means the appliances is good on the day you do it. The home owner has to know it is the rest of the year.

It ain't fair, not to tell them and help them understand the required standards for an appliances and installations safe operation.

 

[Puddle]

Bernie ,I feel you are stretching your points nowand again

Most people know an appliance requires servicing and checking, the information is all around, I have installed many boilers and serviced many appliances and told the customer the requirements ,many do not follow this, not because they are not informed or educated but because they can not be bothered or do not want to spend the money,Have even cleaned sooty back boilers,chucking out carbon monoxide and still they do not get checked until T/couple goes 4 years later, I think boilers should have a gauge on them ,like a petrol gauge ,that runs down towards the need for a service and when it is on the red it stops until serviced and checked
Everyone knows they have to get their car mot’ed every year, proven to improve safety and save lives, there are still a percentage that do not have it done and if tomorrow, the laws were changed, to make it the responsibility of the owner ,how many more would not have it done, educated intelligent people would run the increased risk of a accident or death, that is why it is compulsory and so should servicing and inspecting boilers and other gas appliances
If fact, I am starting a petition, like the scrapage scheme, knickers to it
What’s cakes got to do with it, are you out checking the emitions from your car every day or checking the fuel you put in is the correct mixture and noting what patch it came from
A service does not mean the appliance is good for that day, it checks things through, cleans things out, tests gas ratios and levels ,that will dictate and assist in the appliance being ok to the next mot/service, yes that’s not guaranteed but its guaranteed a lot more than if not done, it also checks past and present performance and could prevent any further danger or prospective illness or death
You get all these people who you think are being mistreated and not treat fair, to ring me and when I am round their homes checking their gas appliances are working, in a safe correct operational condition and that they are safe, I will gladly help them understand the required standards required for appliances and installations, if they are to lazy to search for the information themselves

imho

 

[Blackcatgas]

If the boiler etc has been ID and capped the chances are IMHO that I will get there, find at least 3 NCS, maybe an AR, it will be old and crusty the spire clips holding the casing on will be broken, the combustion box seal will fall apart because its never been removed,( thats if i can get the rusty wing nuts off) the heat ex fins will be full of compacted rubbish that will take me and my metal blade ages to clear off, then when I try to relight it it wont because the thermocouple has broken because its been turned off for the first time since 1989, then after all this The custard will begrudgingly hand over £20 cause thats all hes got on him and he doesnt feel that he should be giving you this as after all that " you havent actually fixed his boiler" and he wont be having a new boiler fitted till he can afford it "maybe in the spring"

Do the above or blast my mountain cycle through the woods, buy a 99 with a flake, take my missus out to our favourite Indian, then an "early night", I know what option I chose last Thursday!

 

[tamz]

We've all had them. If it is a pensioner or a friend i will get it back it order (probably for £20) but most i knock back, not because i can't but because i can't be bothered with the ****$

Puddle, i am doing you out a job here editing my own bad language

 

[unguided1]

I think you will find a difference of opinion on this one you will tend to find the old boys were taught to repair and the new boys not, in the mechanicing world thats the difference between a mechanic and a fitter.

At the end of the day work is work and replacing something just because it is broken should not be the choice of the fitter it is down to the customer and their pocket, but without an informed opnion the customer will always be out of pocket.

Obviously if somthing has come to the end of its servicable life and you cant get parts or it is clearly unrepairable, or it is just not cost effective to repair then replace it.

An example of this I recently replaced a Britony 2 water heater because the heat exchanger split, ordinarily I would have replaced the heat exchanger,but after pricing up the exchanger I discovered that buying a brand new britony 2 was cheaper than buying the heat exchnger. Istill gave the customer thechoiceat the end of the day.

 

[Blackcatgas]

I think you will find a difference of opinion on this one you will tend to find the old boys were taught to repair and the new boys not, in the mechanicing world thats the difference between a mechanic and a fitter.

At the end of the day work is work and replacing something just because it is broken should not be the choice of the fitter it is down to the customer and their pocket, but without an informed opnion the customer will always be out of pocket.

Obviously if somthing has come to the end of its servicable life and you cant get parts or it is clearly unrepairable, or it is just not cost effective to repair then replace it.

An example of this I recently replaced a Britony 2 water heater because the heat exchanger split, ordinarily I would have replaced the heat exchanger,but after pricing up the exchanger I discovered that buying a brand new britony 2 was cheaper than buying the heat exchnger. Istill gave the customer thechoiceat the end of the day.

I have been taught to repair things, sometimes though I choose not to, does that make me a "fitter"?.

 

[Rodreguez]

i went to a boiler BG had ID'd. cobustion box was spilling. the lady had the paperwork. They want £700 for 2 people for 1 day + parts to fix. Me and a mate went round after work 1 night fitted a new combustion box and a kitchen tap think we charged bout £300. Love all the jobs i get cos BG are too expensive

 

[bengasman]

As a boiler repair specialist, condemned boilers in London, Bromley and Croydon are among my main targets, and I have dedicated various pages on my website to them.
When a boiler gets condemned, it essentially means it is dangerous to use in the condition it is in at that moent. This is very common with open flue boilers and by no means does it imply that the boiler has to be replaced. In fact, there are a number of reasons that have nothing to do with the boiler itself.
If something gets lodged in the chimney for instance, it will not pull properly and the boiler will spill, which means it will be classed as immediately dangerous. By law the spillage must be stopped before the boiler can be used, and the engineer has the choice between resolving the problem or disabling the appliance.
You don't have to be a qualified heating engineer to work out that replacing the boiler with a brand new one would not make a lot of difference. In most cases, a condemned boiler can be reinstated without any problems.


For those interested in more details, you can find them here.


Condemned Boilers In Bromely, Keep The Boiler You Have

 

[markinaark]

good article on that link.

 

[kirkgas]

yes i would attempt to get an ID appliance back up and running again, as i know what im doing, sometimes it isnt possible depending on the fault, of those that said no, would you or have you ever driven a car that had failed an MOT then subsequently got repaired and passed an MOT, or do you bin the car and buy a new one. if the garage tells me the car has failed and can be fixed for £x then i pay get the expert to fix it and drive home the next day with 100% confidence,as i only employ experts that i trust it isnt a problem for me to do this

 

[Dannypipe]

The fact that some answers to this question are so long illustrates what a mine field it is.

I have re-instated a boiler that BG ID'd years ago. I go back every year to service it and to date it still runs perfectly. I serviced it only last weel and the client commented on how BG had said she needed a new boiler at £4000.

Anyway, I will only do it if it's very striaght forward to repair/rectify and even then I will look over the install with added vigour. It can be a waste of time, but it can save the client money.

It all comes down to providing a good service as far as I'm concerned.

I

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

it really just comes down to experience,if you know what your doing,checking and testing theres no issues in putting the appliance back on

 

[plumbster3456]

PUDDLES QUOTE
I think boilers should have a gauge on them ,like a petrol gauge ,that runs down towards the need for a service and when it is on the red it stops until serviced and checked

VOKERA ALREADY DO A BOILER THAT HAS THIS FUNCTION ON IT ALL IT NEEDS IS FOR ENGINEER TO SET IT AND FOR WHAT DATE AND TIME

THE BOILER IS VOKERA LINEA HE

 

[tamz]

Many boilers have this function

 

[plumbster3456]

many boilers have this function

i only know of that one but am sure the others do have this i think it is a good idea for troublesome tenants

 

[CMairiD]

For the troublesome tenants that yank my chain over servicing, we install a Danfoss FP715si and whack it into service mode. It starts giving warnings 28 days in advance the service due date. Once it goes over the due date, the tenant will get heat and hot water 15 minutes of every hour by default or whatever we programme, including total shut down.

Doesn't make a hill of beans in the summer months cos they'll use the immersion or if they have a combi. Never starts to bite them until winter comes rolling around and then they're soon on the phone.