Advice on poor service received

[jimaardvark]

Hi there,

Hi there,

I’m hoping someone can comment on service I’ve received from a plumber – as I’m really not happy and want to know if I have any recourse to complain/not pay?!

I have a Worcester Greenstar 35CDi boiler, and the hot water stopped working. I Googled which plumbers in my area were Worcester certified and got someone to come out and take a look. To cut a long story short, over a period of two months, they visited three times and are charging me a total of £1,369 having replaced pretty much every part.

The first visit, the guy said he had no idea what was wrong, but would replace the Pump head. This worked for a few weeks, but then the same problem occurred. On the second visit, he replaced the pump head again (but didn’t charge me for the part) and also replaced the diverter valve and fan. This again fixed the problem for a few weeks and the same thing happened. At the third visit the replaced the pump head (again – no charge for the part) as well as the plate to plate heat exchanger and circuit board. At no point did they seem to have any idea what the problem was, and they just seemed to be guessing.

I’ve actually already paid a total of £855 for parts and labour, but I have not paid my final bill yet of and other £514 because by this stage I would have been much cheaper just buying a brad new boiler!

Does anyone have any comment or advice. I would hope a certified plumber should be able to pin point the problem and only replace the required part – rather than a scattergun approach they seem to have employed, which has finally fixed the problem, but only by gradually replacing every single part in the boiler!!

Do I have any recourse to not pay here?

Thanks in advance for any help

 

[Rickster123]

Hi welcome to the forum. What was agreed between yourselves before work was carried out? Were prices agreed? Written quotes or verbal?

 

[Riley]

Its a tricky situation. As my esteemed colleague says it really depends on what was agreed at the time. One would assume you okayed the work??

 

[joni os]

At times we get lucky and people think we can walk on water. Other times we sink in well above the knees. Very often it is experience and instinct. Your plumber admitted from the start he was unsure but took steps that led to a solution, albeit short term. He also stayed with you until problem was sorted. Very often a new boiler is the best solution but people seek an economical fix. Hindsight makes a fool of us all. Your plumber is certainly experienced in your boiler now. Stay with him.

 

[Rickster123]

And why didn't you stop using that engineer when he failed to rectify the fault after the first couple of visits?

 

[doitmyself]

I Googled which plumbers in my area were Worcester certified and got someone to come out and take a look. ... The first visit, the guy said he had no idea what was wrong,

You have to ask why he didn't contact Worcester Bosch and ask their advice. They would probably have suggested sending one of their own engineers for a fixed price repair.

As for your current problem, contact Trading Standards and ask their advice.

 

[village idiot]

Hello jimaarvark, welcome to theForum. I'm sorry you hada'bad experience', but I'm of the opinion that you should bear some of the responsibility as he told you on his first visit that: The first visit, the guy said he had no idea what was wrong That should have been a clue to try another plumber. You let him carry on changing parts, so he got into a comfort situation believing that you will pay whatever was done?

It's a shame but he did what he was capable of doing and has resolved the issue. Call it a bad experience and have a chat with him about the overall cost. He may be prepared to reduce the amount owing.

 

[Riley]

Think that's very good advice VI

 

[A1P]

You have to ask why he didn't contact Worcester Bosch and ask their advice. They would probably have suggested sending one of their own engineers for a fixed price repair.

As for your current problem, contact Trading Standards and ask their advice.

I dread jobs where the costs escalate.Increasingly I have made use of manufacturer's help desk and most cases have found them helpful.I try hard to have a good relationship with a customer and explain possibilities including estimates for these possibilities.Fixing boilers is not easy and requires plenty of experience.Customers hate growing costs and find the new boiler choice hard to accept.I have on occasions suggested the fixed manufacturers repair especially when I feel am not entirely trusted and there could be potential strife.I do sympathise with your situation.He may have been 'approved' but not for repairing boilers although you would expect him to know his own choice of boiler.Having paid most of the bill,you should as VI suggested ,try to negotiate the rest.Do not start off with refusing to pay,but seeking advice is an option.You could make use of some of the points in the replies given.

 

[AWheating]

Its hard to give advise really. The engineer fixed the problem on each visit and left the boiler working, sounds like both you and he/she did not have much luck and in the end in got out of control changing alot of things. Sometimes problems follow one another, sometimes just turning off a fuse spur or topping up the pressure can cause a major issue.

with hindsight you maybe would have advised a new boiler or a worcester fixed price repair.

 

[Stanios]

Although its clear that the plumber you used has little knowledge in boiler repair field you can't legaly withhold money for a service that has been provided to you, service being replacement of boiler parts.

As you said in the initial exchange you were made aware that the fix might not work. It is at this stage that you should have negotiated the process of any additional repairs should the first repair fail. You willingly accepted their help two more times knowing the potential costs. They've done their work and so should you pay them for it. Sometimes (oftentimes if you are a plumber) you realise that things arent working out and you are losing money. You just have to learn from your experience and hopefully your boiler is working now, in which case you saved about 50% over installing a new one (yes labour also needs to be charged on top of a new boiler).

It might be a bitter pill to swallow but its better to pay now than potentially face court action.

 

[jimaardvark]

Thanks everyone for your replies.

APPlumbing - there were no written quotes, but the chap did say roughly how much each new part going in would cost. And I didn't think simply getting a new plumber in after the first time fix didn't work was particularly fair and wouldn't necessarily result in getting a better plumber! As Joni put it... I decided to stick with him, although with hindsight, I might have been better cutting my losses.

I will try to negotiate some money off the final bill.

 

[doitmyself]

The Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 says:

In a contract for the supply of a service where the supplier is acting in the course of a business, there is an implied term that the supplier will carry out the service with reasonable care and skill.

If the engineer said that he had no idea what was wrong he was admitting that he does not have the necessary skill to carry out the repair.

Ask Trading Standards what you should do - after all it's your money.

 

[oz-plumber]

I'd ring the bloke up and ask him if he thinks changing the external casing might help fix the problem.

Why don't you call him and say the boiler is playing up again?

Let him know that of all the parts he has changed and charged you for, they have not fixed the problem.

Politely let him know that you won't be paying the final invoice.

And remind him that he has replaced 3 pumps, diverter valve, combustion fan, heat exchanger and PCB.

You don't have to be rude, but just tell him that you don't think he has clue how to repair the boiler.


We all have stuff ups from time to time and mis-diagnose problems, but this guy has absolutely no idea.
You probably know more about the boiler than he does

 

[Masood]

I must admit I have sympathy for both sides here, as well as scorn.

The guy was honest enough to admit to guessing at the fault but too stubborn/naive/egotistical to call for help. And stupid enough to change the same part 3 times! But I bet that every single one of us had at some point taken a punt on a diagnosis and lost.

OP knew that the diagnosis was pure guesswork, knew the costs, knew that the same part was being changed repeatedly, but agreed the cost, and now wants to dispute the bill!

The engineer was daft but to my mind the customer was dafter. Chalk it up to experience and pay the bill. He did not deceive you. He provided the service as promised. You knew the service on offer was substandard but still accepted it, repeatedly. Challenging the bill now is not on.

 

[joni os]

The Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 says:

In a contract for the supply of a service where the supplier is acting in the course of a business, there is an implied term that the supplier will carry out the service with reasonable care and skill.

If the engineer said that he had no idea what was wrong he was admitting that he does not have the necessary skill to carry out the repair.

Ask Trading Standards what you should do - after all it's your money.

If my doctor says he is unsure of a diagnoses I respect him for his honesty rather than report him for incompetence. My reading of the facts are that after each visit the boiler was working.
My "guess" is the problem was intermittent electrical contact. Methodology of repair is open to debate:- If it is twice as likely cause is a £300 part than £100 part. Replacement of £300 part will be wrong on 1 in 3 occasions. Replacement of £100 part will be wrong in 2 in 3 occasions. But the total cost of being wrong is £200 against £300 if you chose the most likely option on every occasion.

 

[Best]

I have no idea what is wrong in many occasions, but I work it out eventually.
Especially intermittent faults which can usually only be fixed by using probability and perhaps experience.
I don't do gas, but to be fair, I must admit that it is obvious that a lot of heating engineers do just bluff and replace parts without having the ability to fault find or work out the most likely cause of boiler fault.

 

[gassafe]

If its anything like the Worcester I repaired today I fitted a new pcb, turned the power on & the fan went pop!! Fireworks night had come early & the cost doubled from no fault of my own!

 

[rpm]

If its anything like the Worcester I repaired today I fitted a new pcb, turned the power on & the fan went pop!! Fireworks night had come early & the cost doubled from no fault of my own!

Anyone else think this is becoming silly, hearing of boiler parts and digi showers going pop by simply turn power on & off.

 

[firemant]

If its anything like the Worcester I repaired today I fitted a new pcb, turned the power on & the fan went pop!! Fireworks night had come early & the cost doubled from no fault of my own!

Did it not take out the new PCB?

But to be fair, that is different to the OP's problem, I think.

OP: When someone says he doesn't know what he is doing, then don't let them fit expensive parts. Madness. At least discuss what happens if he is wrong. As it happens, it is also madness to fit 2 further PH's, especially when most here should agree that it is not likely that the first pump was required (assuming the heating was working). Same for the fan. The other 3 parts may have been the issue, but unlikely all 3.

Also, the fitter was probably "accredited". Which actually means "buys and fits a lot of boilers".It has nothing do with skill, and I think this is verging in fraud, as most public would equate "accreditted" with "trained and competent".

Boiler fault finding can be difficult, (and I do not claim to be special), but expecting the client to pay for your learning curve, in my book, is wrong. He clearly needs to attend some training courses.

Whether you should pay is something else. I thonk you are both at fault. Is he a sole trader or part of a company?

 

[doitmyself]

If my doctor says he is unsure of a diagnoses I respect him for his honesty rather than report him for incompetence.

But you would expect him to seek a second opinion by referring you to another doctor or a consultant at the hospital. You certainly wouldn't expect him to say, " I think it may be your kidneys, so I will arrange for them to be removed and put you on dialysis".

 

[Dan-HybridHeat]

I've had a similar issue before whilst repairing a boiler a few years ago - although not to the extent of £1300! After i misdiagnosed a faulty PCB for a fan I stumped up the cost of the PCB myself and charged no extra to the customer. As previously said it is a learning curve for the engineer, and with the amount of money it has cost him you can guarantee he will have learnt from it and he won't make the same mistakes again.

If you have agreed as a customer for him to continue changing parts at your expense though I don't think there's too much you can expect from him. I think some sort of agreement should be made for you to meet halfway as it's fault on both sides here by the sounds of it.