A real brain teaser, its got me beat

[Derrick229]

Hi Lads,
Just been replumbing a house, they said they had a leak

They had a new main put in by 3 Valleys, great, no problem (no leaks)

They have a granny flat next door, and a valve that isolates the granny flat and the hotwater (this line feeds the combi boiler (it also isolates the hot water to EVERY WHERE)

I have run a new line to the bathroom, it feeds just the bath, hand basin and toilet

So is it clear so far ?

1st valve, isolates the whole place (main S/C)

2nd valve isolates the cold water in the granny flat, the hot water to the WHOLE house, the kitchen in the house and the outside tap

3rd valve isolates just the bathroom

Are you still with me ?

When I isolate the main valve (no 1) the water meter stops (this tells me that between the water meter and the main S/c is fine, no leaks)

I now shut off the 2nd valve which shuts off the granny flat, kitchen, outside tap and the hot water supply from the combi (the main valve is now open, of course)

With the main valve open and no 2 closed, I open no 3 valve (which feeds JUST the bathroom), no taps are open or dripping in the bathroom, the ball valve isnt letting by

BUT the meter is still going round, now common sense tells me that somewhere there is a leak, so there is going to be a damp patch or a puddle

There is nothing, the taps arent leaking, the pipework is dry, I can see all the pipework

I called the 3 valleys guy out, even he saw it, meter working, no damp patches, no dripping taps, dry pipe

Anyone got any ideas what the hell is happening, I been told by the 3 valleys guy the meter only works when there is a flow of water,

It only seems to be when the valve (no 3) that feeds the bathroom there is a flow, I cant find it

Anyone any ideas, because its got me buggered, 3 valleys are reluctant to dig the meter up, they say its fine (and as the leak is AFTER the meter, its the house owners problem)


(I have to be really honest, I think there is a fault on the meter)

 

[Gray0689]

It's a tricky one all I can sugest is to seperate in to circuits and pressure test each leg
And go from there

 

[Derrick229]

It's a tricky one all I can sugest is to seperate in to circuits and pressure test each leg
And go from there

Which has already been done, several times, with the same results (they are allready on seperate circuits, with isolating valves, which are new)

 

[ferret]

Hah, not daft, done all that

I can confirm that when no 1 is open and no 2, there are NO leaks (the meter dont move)

When no 1 is open and no 3 is open, the taps are shut, the BV is shut, the meter turns, but no water shows anywhere, my tissue paper on each joint is dry

Tomorrow, when I go back, I will be disconnecting the bath/HB/WC and putting a cap on all 3, then turning on the No 1 valve, then I will know that the taps and BV arent leaking

Apart from changing the new pipe I have put in, there is nothing else I can think of

No i mean isolate the house once pressurised from valve no1 with 2&3 open so you can see if there is a pressure drop at all

 

[Derrick229]

No i mean isolate the house once pressurised from valve no1 with 2&3 open so you can see if there is a pressure drop at all

I havent got a pressure gauge, but I can have the tap connector disconected and see if the level drops (using a clear hose)
When I shut off valve no 1, wait 10 minutes, then listen for a rush of water, there isnt one (using a listening stick)

Any more suggestions for when I return tomorrow to try ?

*

 

[Gray0689]

No your not getting what where saying disconect all valves and pressure test all legs inside the house with the appliances disconected and all pipes stopended
Put a pressur gage on and put upto about 3 bar and give it an hour or 2
You have sorted that once the stopcock is off no water passing

 

[Derrick229]

No your not getting what where saying disconect all valves and pressure test all legs inside the house with the appliances disconected and all pipes stopended
Put a pressur gage on and put upto about 3 bar and give it an hour or 2
You have sorted that once the stopcock is off no water passing

Right, I open valve no 1, charge the line, check the pressure, then shut off the no 1 valve, the pressure should stay as it is, if there are no leaks, it will drop if there are

(I will have no 2 valve shut as well, I know there are leaks there, when no 2 valve is open along with no 1, the meter stops, it only happens when no 1 and no 3 are both open)

 

[Dannypipe]

This is a long shot, but are there any watering systems linked to this leg of pipe? These could be linked to a timer? Other than that I think you have all the suggestions you need. Pressurise the your pipework to a set static pressure with a guage attached, then monitor it and see if the needle drops. What a nightmare mate!!

 

[Gray0689]

Then there has to be some sort of leak on or after the 3rd valve what is attached after the 3 rd valve ??

 

[Derrick229]

This is a long shot, but are there any watering systems linked to this leg of pipe? These could be linked to a timer? Other than that I think you have all the suggestions you need. Pressurise the your pipework to a set static pressure with a guage attached, then monitor it and see if the needle drops. What a nightmare mate!!

You are telling me, its a blody nightmare, a leak with no sign

The pipe from no 3 valve goes straight to the bathroom, (it originally went into the loft, down the bedroom, under the floor, into the bathroom, but I have cut that all off now and removed it from the loft, there are open ends under the both both are open and discoonected )

no watering system

I am not sure why the pipe went into the loft, down the bedroom, and under the floor to the bathroom, when the kitchen is below the bathroom, but I think its the previous plumbers way of saving running new pipe and removing the tank and cylinder, using the cold feed from the tank to the bath and the cold feed to the tank, because the cold feed was 15mm and the feed to the bath was 22mm, BUT either way, this is now disconnected and has open ends

A new main to the bathroom has been run and its this bugger that is giving me the headache




There are just some jobs that are going to be a real pain in the bum, I have found it

 

[Derrick229]

Then there has to be some sort of leak on or after the 3rd valve what is attached after the 3 rd valve ??

Hah, you lazy bugger, I posted that all earlier, just a cold tap in the bath, cold tap in the HB and the WC (which is isolated and dry)

From valve no 3, there are 2 elbows, soldered, 1 pulled bend, 1 straight pushfit connector, 1 T which goes off to the bath, the T then goes off to the HB, then finishes with a soldered elbow to the WC which has an isolation valve on it, which is off

EVERY joint has tissue round it, which when I left on Saturday was dry

I have to leave the water on, a bloke is living in the Granny flat

 

[Plamber]

Hi, has you plumber in cylinder/boiler? could a blow off/discharge pipe be dripping?. ive seen new pressure relief valves drip.

 

[Derrick229]

Hi, has you plumber in cylinder/boiler? could a blow off/discharge pipe be dripping?. ive seen new pressure relief valves drip.

Oh, come on,read the whole thread, please

You may have seen pressure relief valves drip, but this isnt happening here

 

[Gray0689]

Hah, you lazy bugger, I posted that all earlier, just a cold tap in the bath, cold tap in the HB and the WC (which is isolated and dry)

From valve no 3, there are 2 elbows, soldered, 1 pulled bend, 1 straight pushfit connector, 1 T which goes off to the bath, the T then goes off to the HB, then finishes with a soldered elbow to the WC which has an isolation valve on it, which is off

EVERY joint has tissue round it, which when I left on Saturday was dry

I have to leave the water on, a bloke is living in the Granny flat

I'm a lazy bugger am I?
I'm just trying to help you out
sort it out your self pxxxk
Soldered joints then pushfit did you put in continuity bonding where you broke line with plastic and I'm lazy muppet

 

[Derrick229]

I'm a lazy bugger am I?
I'm just trying to help you out
sort it out your self pxxxk
Soldered joints then pushfit did you put in continuity bonding where you broke line with plastic and I'm lazy muppet

Yes, if you had read the thread from the start, you would have seen where the leak is supposed to be (the pipe JUST feeding the bathroom) the reason a push fit was used, was the pipe was near a timber joist and I didnt want it catching fire (I got a limited amount of space under the floor

No I havent put in bonding yet, I will do that when the leak is sorted, what is the point in putting on bonding if the pipe has to be changed ?

If I could sort it myself, I wouldnt be asking in here would I ?

I been a plumber for 40 years and have never had this before, has anyone else ?

I was calling you lazy in jest (I couldnt find a smiley face) sorry if you took offense

 

[Gray0689]

Well I did

 

[GreenArmy]

Derrick, does the customer know the problems your having? If not and your sure you cant find a leak then best just finish up and go. Although thats easier said than done. I would say your best bet is to do what has already been suggested and pressure test your section of pipe after valve 3. Try and get a good nights kip without thinking about it to much and let us know the outcome tomorrow.

 

[Derrick229]

Derrick, does the customer know the problems your having? If not and your sure you cant find a leak then best just finish up and go. Although thats easier said than done. I would say your best bet is to do what has already been suggested and pressure test your section of pipe after valve 3. Try and get a good nights kip without thinking about it to much and let us know the outcome tomorrow.

Oh, he knows, by god does he know, but his reply is, I want it sorted,

I'm on a price plus parts, so makes no difference to him how long I'm there, I cant finish off, I have to connect the kitchen up, then try and get paid (cant see him doing that if the meter is still going round)

So until tomorrow, when I get the gauge and test the pipe that the suspect leak is on, there is buggerall I can do

Thanks to all for your replies and suggestions, they really have been appreciated, if I have ruffled anyone up the wrong way, I apologise, no offense was intended

 

[Derrick229]

Well I did

Oh, well cant do any more than apologise

 

[Gray0689]

Ok cheers

 

[Derrick229]

Ok cheers

Now we are best mates again

Any ideas ?

A leak with no water showing, it beats the hell out of me

 

[Gray0689]

Look there is a leak somewhere after 3rd valve it might be small and going somewhere you can't see might not be your fault it could be a pin hole in pipe up might just be better roping it out and doing it again if that the easiest way

 

[Derrick229]

Look there is a leak somewhere after 3rd valve it might be small and going somewhere you can't see might not be your fault it could be a pin hole in pipe up might just be better roping it out and doing it again if that the easiest way

After this pressure test, that has got to be the next move, I'm hoping the tissue I have round every joint is going to be wet, at least I will know then and do something about it

It is brand new copper at the monent, do I run it in poly or more copper ?

 

[Gray0689]

I hope you get it sorted let me know how you get on

 

[Derrick229]

I hope you get it sorted let me know how you get on

I'll be letting EVERYONE know, I would hate anyone to have to deal with something like this again


Should have gone for an hourly rate, would have paid for Christmas somewhere sunny

 

[Gray0689]

If you can check all the pipe as it probably not your joints as you already checked them it's a hard one mate I do feel for you
If you change whether poly or copper it's your choice personaly I prefer copper
But nothing wrong with plastic it has it's place

 

[Gray0689]

We live and learn mate

 

[Derrick229]

We live and learn mate

After 40 years I thought I had seen it all, but this has me beat

I prefer copper, sweated joints myself, usually regard plastic and pushfit as a DIY thing (but the fittings are handy in tight spots or a loft with old style lagging (inflammable)

 

[Steve001]

Interesting...

long shot and I'm sure its been ruled out all ready, I have read all the threads quickly (six pages) so my apologies in advance... Mixer tap body allowing cold into hot water side of life? as I say a long shot

 

[Gray0689]

I use all all sorts in right place
Copper
polypipe
Loads of underfloor pipe
Pipe in pipe
But will always prefer copper

 

[Derrick229]

Interesting...

long shot and I'm sure its been ruled out all ready, I have read all the threads quickly (six pages) so my apologies in advance... Mixer tap body allowing cold into hot water side of life? as I say a long shot

mmmm, havent thought of that, but the cold tap in the bath has been off and not dripping into the container I have wired on tto the spout