2 Keston C40's

[j0mpst0rt]

Hi Amazing Plumber Brains!!!

I have 2 Keston C40's about to be commissioned (YEs I Know. BUt its a massive story i'm not going into).

I've been told horror stories about the cost of Keston C40's;So here's my questions:

1: ;What is the minimum cost to keep one going for an hour?
2: ;What is the maximum cost to keep one going per hour ?
3: ;If the standby is sitting there, does it have a cost to keep it going per hour ?
3: ;Is it wise to go for the largest cylinder possible?  

House its going into is, Kestons on ground floor and Cylinders on ground floor.

1 Kitchen, 22 radiators 8 bedrooms 7 bathrooms 1 flat of bedroom/kitchen/bathroom (3 rooms)
Also possible addition a top loft room which is capable of holding 2 bedrooms and 2 bathrooms (not yet).

I have zero money, and i'm only renovating this house because i have no choice, so using brass buttons to get it running.

I think replacing the kestons with a new system may not be a good idea, i have been given a cost of £4200 to commission the kestons including 2 300litre cylinders and to repair the piping where the thieves stole it.

I'm not asking about the price being fair, i'm just wondering if someone has a view of if the kestons dont work, what is the most financially best solution i can do and is there anything i can do for 4200 if i have to replace the kestons ?

Thanks a lot in advance.

Mike

 

[Chalked]

How old are the kestons? More than 10 years? If they are put the money towards new.

I would replace with Vaillant light commercial, but others are available. It will also depend how it can be flued to outside.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

tbh i would shop around for better prices and just looked at the instructions and theres nothing different than a normal boiler commission other than a hot flush

but i do agree there not very reliable (well a few years ago they wernt) dont know if they have upped there gain havent fitted one in years

and you need to talk to your gas safe eng if your planning on converting

 

[Sparkgap]

Hi Amazing Plumber Brains!!!

I have 2 Keston C40's about to be commissioned (YEs I Know. BUt its a massive story i'm not going into).

I've been told horror stories about the cost of Keston C40's;So here's my questions:

1: ;What is the minimum cost to keep one going for an hour?
2: ;What is the maximum cost to keep one going per hour ?
3: ;If the standby is sitting there, does it have a cost to keep it going per hour ?
3: ;Is it wise to go for the largest cylinder possible? *

House its going into is, Kestons on ground floor and Cylinders on ground floor.

1 Kitchen, 22 radiators 8 bedrooms 7 bathrooms 1 flat of bedroom/kitchen/bathroom (3 rooms)
Also possible addition a top loft room which is capable of holding 2 bedrooms and 2 bathrooms (not yet).

I have zero money, and i'm only renovating this house because i have no choice, so using brass buttons to get it running.

I think replacing the kestons with a new system may not be a good idea, i have been given a cost of £4200 to commission the kestons including 2 300litre cylinders and to repair the piping where the thieves stole it.

I'm not asking about the price being fair, i'm just wondering if someone has a view of if the kestons dont work, what is the most financially best solution i can do and is there anything i can do for 4200 if i have to replace the kestons ?

Thanks a lot in advance.

Mike

1: £0 (If it's off!!!) plus a fraction of a penny for electric
2: £1.70 for running but depends on your gas price. If something does go pop (being an old Keston, more than likely) then you're looking at £££££!
3: If it's on standby then as (1) unless there's a load of hot water going through it in which case a few pennies from heat loss.

If you're going to spend £4k on commissioning you might as well put in something more reliable! As suggested elsewhere go for a couple of Vaillant.

 

[j0mpst0rt]

Hmm, £1.70 an hour.... so I presume the largest cylinder is best ?

what type of valliant specifically ?

So light commercial valliant is a possibility. What do i do with the kestons that were totally brand new when i bought them?, but they have sat for 7 years in the heating room. I have a heating room that is outside the house, that has a window a double hight room plastered to the roof, and has ceilings about 18feet high by about 8 x 8 feet wide. flues can go anywhere.

. can i get valliants installed and comissioned for what sort of price, with a cylinder ? i thought of getting the largest cylinder possible, what do you think ?

i've got someone who will 'kindly' finish the keston installs for me, for about 1200pound including the piping, and will charge for the parts 9`mostly flues and one ignition), to get it comissioned.

now i'm about to find out if my gas id dead or alive, (thursday), i'm 100metres from the road, so now i'm wondering if i should look at something else if 1) i've no gas, and 2) i've got expensive kestons . any ideas here ?

 

[Chalked]

Kit the kestons have never run. They should be fine.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

i would go for some Worcester gb162s

and lpg?

 

[j0mpst0rt]

Hi Amazing Plumber Brains!!!<br><br>I have 2 Keston C40's about to be commissioned (YEs I Know. &nbsp;BUt its a massive story i'm not going into).<br><br>I've been told horror stories about the cost of Keston C40's. &nbsp;So here's my questions:<br><br>1: &nbsp;What is the minimum cost to keep one going for an hour?<br>2: &nbsp;What is the maximum cost to keep one going per hour ?<br>3: &nbsp;If the standby is sitting there, does it have a cost to keep it going per hour ?<br>3: &nbsp;Is it wise to go for the largest cylinder possible? &nbsp;<br><br>House its going into is, Kestons on ground floor and Cylinders on ground floor.<br><br>1 Kitchen, 22 radiators 8 bedrooms 7 bathrooms 1 flat of bedroom/kitchen/bathroom (3 rooms)<br>Also possible addition a top loft room which is capable of holding 2 bedrooms and 2 bathrooms (not yet).<br><br>I have zero money, and i'm only renovating this house because i have no choice, so using brass buttons to get it running. &nbsp;I think replacing the kestons with a new system may not be a good idea, i have been given a cost of £4200 to commission the kestons including 2 300litre cylinders and to repair the piping where the thieves stole it.<br><br>I'm not asking about the price being fair, i'm just wondering if someone has a view of if the kestons dont work, what is the most financially best solution i can do. &nbsp;and is there anything i can do for 4200 if i have to replace the kestons ?<br><br>Thanks a lot in advance.<br><br>Mike

(sorry the above is a copy n paste as i wasn't logged in.

 

[Aquazone]

If they have been sat there for 7 years, you just got to take your chances.

If they have got damp and moisture in them, you will be looking at a massive repair bill as you won't have any warranty.
If they haven't then they should be fine. It's luck of the draw. To be fair even if they haven't got damp, a Keston is unreliable anyway so might go pop anyway.

If you can afford to replace it, then I personally would do that.

 

[Ermintrude]

Runners and seals will be shagged and fans won't start. Don't wast your money.

Replace stolen pipe with MLCP. Looks like plastic to a copper theif so they don't touch it.

Biggest cylinder isn't always best. Get an ACV if you can if not a center store .

80kw....,VIESSMANN or and evo.

 

[j0mpst0rt]

Ok, my gas connectionis Alive I'm Glad, as I'm 100 metre from the main road.
Next: I need to find out if I need a U10 or a U16 connection. I have two kestons and 2 gas 5 ring hobs. is a U10 good enough for me ?

 

[Sparkgap]

Ok, my gas connectionis Alive I'm Glad, as I'm 100 metre from the main road.
Next: I need to find out if I need a U10 or a U16 connection. I have two kestons and 2 gas 5 ring hobs. is a U10 good enough for me ?

Depends on the rating of your hobs. If your total including boilers is over 100kW then U16 otherwise U10. Will also depend on incoming pipe size as if you're 100m from the road you're going to want something like 2" iron or 63PE to avoid excessive pressure drop. When you go to your gas supplier they should be able to say how much they can provide.

 

[j0mpst0rt]

I have 1" plastic pipe to the room where the boilers and cylinder are.

The national grid guy said the pressure was 'good'

I am deciding where I need gas. I have the two c40's and one gas cooker (range). the c40's will be failing over between themselves, but I've been told for measurement purposes they are both added to the calculation. anyone advice me, I need to order the u10 or u16 today, so the plumber has something to do when he arrives.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

You won't supply the meter normally (but no unheard of) double check with your gas supply there not going to fit one

and your gas safe eng would supply it normally ky

 

[j0mpst0rt]

Good Morning - Anther Questio this time regarding cylinder
For Now, i'm thinking of the largest cylinder possible to put in the rom where the boiler is, there are 6 bar and 10 bar pressure cylinders and i'm looking at the heatrae sadia megaflo's 800l. Does it support a secondary source? like solar panelling if iwant it added later ? Are there anything cost wise i'm not aware of? Is it a reliable system ? Does it require

One of the things i've noticed about cylinders is there s like about 2-300 pounds worth of stuff to go onto a cylinder, and suddenly the essex guy's ready made cylinders on ebay are looking like a fair option. Any have any comments ?

 

[Eric withy]

first and formost get rid of the kestons will save moneys and time in the future

 

[j0mpst0rt]

I do hear you on everyone saying get rid of the kestons.

My plan is... get the kestons comissioned, if they both work great, i will use them till each one fails, if not economically repairable, i'll swap once both have failed only if both dont work am i faced with the installation of something new.

still leaves the questions of cylinders. Is the largest best ? i can get an 800l in the room

 

[j0mpst0rt]

Ok now Cylinders --> i've been offered 2 x pre-plumbed RM stelflow 300ltrdulux unvented RM is this a good idea considering this stupidly large house? and does it need a mechanical pump to pusht he water for all the showers ( I do presume there could be 6 showers running at the same time). ive decided to leave the baths in, just not working.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

What size waters main you have and what's the pressure and flow rate ??

 

[Sparkgap]

Ok now Cylinders --> i've been offered 2 x pre-plumbed RM stelflow 300ltrdulux unvented RM is this a good idea considering this stupidly large house? and does it need a mechanical pump to pusht he water for all the showers ( I do presume there could be 6 showers running at the same time). ive decided to leave the baths in, just not working.

As Shauncorbs says, what's your incoming mains like? On paper the two cylinders should be fine provided you've got the flow rate off the mains and if people don't go stupid having baths every five minutes they should do the baths as well.
As for a pumped secondary, if you've got any long length of pipe from the cylinder to the furthest fitting then it's probably an idea to put one in otherwise you'll be wasting water running all the cold out of the pipework. Depends on the layout.

 

[j0mpst0rt]

Hi,
the flow rate is something i'm going to test this weekend for the cold water pressure.

the idea of the secondary cylinder working in the heating system system at the same time appeals. do you mean I could have both cylinders feeding the heating system and the hot water, i.e. outlet from cylinder 1 goes to waterh, outlet from cylinder 1 goes into heating one end, and outlet from cylinder 2 goes to heating other end of heating? (I know where it all starts and ends. is this possible? (I haven't thought about it.

 

[Sparkgap]

Hi,
the flow rate is something i'm going to test this weekend for the cold water pressure.

the idea of the secondary cylinder working in the heating system system at the same time appeals. do you mean I could have both cylinders feeding the heating system and the hot water, i.e. outlet from cylinder 1 goes to waterh, outlet from cylinder 1 goes into heating one end, and outlet from cylinder 2 goes to heating other end of heating? (I know where it all starts and ends. is this possible? (I haven't thought about it.

Eh??? The best way to have the system is both boilers in parallel feeding a flow and return to a low loss header, then from that header have another pump and a couple/three motorised valves to do the heating circuit and the two cylinders. The cylinders will also be in parallel. That way you get enough boiler power for the cylinders (they use about 20kW each), and if one boiler fails you aren't left in the lurch because part of the system isn't hooked up to the working one. Likewise with the cylinders, you'd be able to take one out of use for servicing without affecting the hot water too much.

 

[drip-dry]

Hi Amazing Plumber Brains!!!

I have 2 Keston C40's about to be commissioned (YEs I Know. BUt its a massive story i'm not going into).

I've been told horror stories about the cost of Keston C40's;So here's my questions:

1: ;What is the minimum cost to keep one going for an hour?
2: ;What is the maximum cost to keep one going per hour ?
3: ;If the standby is sitting there, does it have a cost to keep it going per hour ?
3: ;Is it wise to go for the largest cylinder possible? *

House its going into is, Kestons on ground floor and Cylinders on ground floor.

1 Kitchen, 22 radiators 8 bedrooms 7 bathrooms 1 flat of bedroom/kitchen/bathroom (3 rooms)
Also possible addition a top loft room which is capable of holding 2 bedrooms and 2 bathrooms (not yet).

I have zero money, and i'm only renovating this house because i have no choice, so using brass buttons to get it running.

I think replacing the kestons with a new system may not be a good idea, i have been given a cost of £4200 to commission the kestons including 2 300litre cylinders and to repair the piping where the thieves stole it.

I'm not asking about the price being fair, i'm just wondering if someone has a view of if the kestons dont work, what is the most financially best solution i can do and is there anything i can do for 4200 if i have to replace the kestons ?

Thanks a lot in advance.

Mike

i had a drug problem to once...,,

 

[j0mpst0rt]

I tried to have a problem like that once too, but my head wouldn't take it so I gave up trying to have a drug problem .

 

[j0mpst0rt]

I like your idea a lot makes sense and I'll ask the plumber to do this.

the low loss header is already there, both boilers feed intot he low loss header, we have motorised valves to do it, I just need the cylinders, so now it is looking like 300kw cylinders is going to be enough. so my acton is going to be: plumber- please get it working like sparkgap suggests, if both are working, shut down one until people are living in the property.
I have a dream of being there for Christmas.

can you have two different boilers feeding the low loss header, or that a crazy idea ?

 

[Sparkgap]

I like your idea a lot makes sense and I'll ask the plumber to do this.

the low loss header is already there, both boilers feed intot he low loss header, we have motorised valves to do it, I just need the cylinders, so now it is looking like 300kw cylinders is going to be enough. so my acton is going to be: plumber- please get it working like sparkgap suggests, if both are working, shut down one until people are living in the property.
I have a dream of being there for Christmas.

300 litres is more than plenty, the Megaflo brochure has 2x300 litre cylinders as suitable for 18 shower student accommodation or an 8 bed hotel.

can you have two different boilers feeding the low loss header, or that a crazy idea ?

Here's a typical layout. You could have a single pump circulating through both boilers but many of them these days have their own built-in jockey pumps. Also, if a boiler fails you can put a different one in its place.

 

[j0mpst0rt]

Your diagram reflects whats in the room. THanks for confirming that I can have different boilers. It provides me an escape route to non kestons and I've been suggested to look at the atags.

And Now: to appease a person who fixed a big problem in my house for free, he has offered me 2 RM Stelaflow 300's preplumbed. Are these ok to use ? instead of 2 x megaflo ? I know he will get a bit of profit from it, but it would also be my way of saying thankyou to him for the help he's has given me as well as keeping someone who has an interest? If they deliver similar, then i'm happy to go ahead with them.
I will measure the mains water pressure this weekend by pouring it into a big fat bucket lined with litres, I will see how many litres it fills up in one minute. whats a good rate and whats a bad (fail) rate in litres (or should I just go by pressure) ? And if I do have a bad rate, what do I do about it? I am under the believe that I have a second cold water point to the house too (just found a water pipe works even when the stopcock is closed off.

Now how do I say thank you to everyone here for being so darned helpful!
Mike.

 

[Sparkgap]

Your diagram reflects whats in the room. THanks for confirming that I can have different boilers. It provides me an escape route to non kestons and I've been suggested to look at the atags.

And Now: to appease a person who fixed a big problem in my house for free, he has offered me 2 RM Stelaflow 300's preplumbed. Are these ok to use ? instead of 2 x megaflo ? I know he will get a bit of profit from it, but it would also be my way of saying thankyou to him for the help he's has given me as well as keeping someone who has an interest? If they deliver similar, then i'm happy to go ahead with them.
I will measure the mains water pressure this weekend by pouring it into a big fat bucket lined with litres, I will see how many litres it fills up in one minute. whats a good rate and whats a bad (fail) rate in litres (or should I just go by pressure) ? And if I do have a bad rate, what do I do about it? I am under the believe that I have a second cold water point to the house too (just found a water pipe works even when the stopcock is closed off.

Now how do I say thank you to everyone here for being so darned helpful!
Mike.

Trouble with pre-plumbed stuff is it assumes a typical house and single cylinder. The pre-plumbed Stelflows have a pump and heating/HWS zone valves. From the sound of it you already have a heating pump(?) and there's no guarantee that the pump supplied on the Stelflow will be up to the job. Might be, but I don't know anything about your system. I suppose you could just remove and blank off the heating side and only use the HWS side but seems a bit of a waste.
If it was me I'd go for the plain Stelflow, single primary pump feeding the cylinders through two zone valves switched by the cylinder thermostats and with the pump switched by the aux contacts on the valves so it goes off when not needed. Keeps it separate from the heating pump and system.

 

[j0mpst0rt]

there is no heat pump attached yet. what sort of heat pump size/output/pressure do I need ?

I get the point that the pump on the cylinder may not be powerful enough if its for a number of showers and baths.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

there is no heat pump attached yet. what sort of heat pump size/output/pressure do I need ?

I get the point that the pump on the cylinder may not be powerful enough if its for a number of showers and baths.

your heating eng will get the pumps to fit / suggest what type and size is needed

 

[quality]

Heat pumps, unvented, loads of demand, not very good boilers,more than 3 bedrooms, large property I am not insinuating (no malice) but this is a job for a professional

 

[j0mpst0rt]

you are right, it does need a professional. i'm not touching anything myself. the good thing out of this appears, i have fromt he low loss header, something that works. the boilers, yes, very suspect, but for now, if they work it'll do. if they dont, i thing atags or valliant. i have to wait and see what i can get., but now, i dont want any more money than is critically needed to get people renting rooms. blame the plumber who went into prison and stole the equipment,a nd the thieves, who stoll the copper piping, and the 'manager' who spent the othe rmoney that was left.... i've come back a few years from my breakdown to stand up and face this task . i'm not baulking at it, but i have to do what i can with the minimum i have. if the kestons fire into life (even 1 of them), my budget remains intact and I can actually for a while celebarte, as it gets me over the hurdle of making the house 'liveable'. i earn money at a good rate, but not enough for now, a years time i can afford a new boiler, but not now.. although i have not yet costed the furnishing of the place yet.

Fingers cross, and I'm really hoping it will work. although my bank did call me yesterday to ask if everything was ok (they seen my bank balances plunge).

 

[j0mpst0rt]

No good news yet. I have to wait till monday to see if the gas goes in, and then we see if the Kestons work after that. But there are now choices, 2 Atags an AMV, I have choices if it doesn't work. One more question I have... Is it possible to 'Modulate' a Keston C40? i can't find anything that says the questions will work other than at 100% ?
But over the next two weeks, I got quite a few choices. ACV Headmaster (there are 5 on eBay, 3 Atags, one Ideal 75w, all at respectable costs. Any one got view on the ACV Heatmaster (it has a 600l tank inside it too).

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Worcester 162 or atag tbh

 

[snowhead]

One more question I have... Is it possible to 'Modulate' a Keston C40? i can't find anything that says the questions will work other than at 100% ?

C40 modulates itself to keep the output temp constant.

 

[j0mpst0rt]

Good Morning - Flue's for Keston C40. Where can I get them from ? I have the flu bits up to the 2inches sticking out of the top with hte grills on. I need now to extend them sothey go outside. They are 75mm wide. The keston docs say 'marley', can someone tell me where I can get the 4 flue's (2 boilers) from please ?
Finally for the humour of you plumbers. I do have the cylinders as well. and the pipework in the house is done. \
The plumber who was goign to work on it, is very ill so i'm still looking for a plumber and its november. I have all the parts for everything I believe now, I just need 1) Gas Registered person, and 2), plumb er to connect the cylinders to the boilers and the pipework. (Suffolk/Leiston/IP16.

 

[Sparkgap]

Good Morning - Flue's for Keston C40. Where can I get them from ? I have the flu bits up to the 2inches sticking out of the top with hte grills on. I need now to extend them sothey go outside. They are 75mm wide. The keston docs say 'marley', can someone tell me where I can get the 4 flue's (2 boilers) from please ?
Finally for the humour of you plumbers. I do have the cylinders as well. and the pipework in the house is done. \
The plumber who was goign to work on it, is very ill so i'm still looking for a plumber and its november. I have all the parts for everything I believe now, I just need 1) Gas Registered person, and 2), plumb er to connect the cylinders to the boilers and the pipework. (Suffolk/Leiston/IP16.

White waste pipe. That was one thing Kestons made a big point of when they came out that you could use ordinary plastic drain pipe for flues. Did a commercial job in an old folks home with 100mm grey soil pipe.

 

[stevetheplumber]

amazes me the size of project you can do with NO money

 

[j0mpst0rt]

Hi, can someone tell me where I can get flues for the keston c40's, i been told they 50mm. i need 4, and they need to just go directly out the same wall the frame the kestons are connected to . So I dont think more than a few inches is required.

any pointers greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

Michael

Oh - Re Plumbers.... They say they come in 3's.... Today I now have 3 called all saying they can start tuesday (odd!). but I'm happy. They just asked me to get the flues, so they can come in and do everything straight way unless they get it, but they said they would do it cost.

 

[village idiot]

you are right, it does need a professional.

blame the plumber who went into prison and stole the equipment,a nd the thieves, who stoll the copper piping, and the 'manager' who spent the othe rmoney that was left.... i've come back a few years from my breakdown to stand up and face this task .

Fingers cross, and I'm really hoping it will work. (they seen my bank balances plunge).

So the plumber went to prison, then stole the equipment while he was in there? Schocking.
As for the 50mm 'flue pipe', you can get them from any plumbers merchants. Just go in and ask for 50mm waste pipe. But to be honest, why not let the plumber you select to do the job buy it? You say they have all agreed to supply it at 'cost', so what have you got to loose?

 

[j0mpst0rt]

We're getting there.

my friend has got the heating working without the boilers, tested all the cold, hot tap water to all taps (by heating a cylinder with its heating element) and has put a separate cold feed through the central heating (separate cold from the cylinder cold of course) and heating pipes. Using just the low loss, cylinders and we have now mains, cold, hot water to taps, and cold water heating (yes, it tests the water), so now we have proven all pipework is fine (where builders hadnt screwed screws through the pipework, and radiators had not been put on properly.). We have left one cylinder on heating the hot water in taps, so bingo we have showers and baths and taps all hot.

So the next piece of this saga is now that my friend is now looking at how to wire up the the 2 c40's with the cylinders and low loss header, he says everything all there now. (i've bought everything). All pipework now we understand and now we are looking at wiring it up.

Does anyone know of any 'diagrams', other than in the installation and servicing instructions on setting up the c40's together?. I'd like to see if there is even someone who has either in suffolk/essex/london/kent/surrey (I can get to any of these places) to come and see an already installed setup that we can look at as a reference point or would be patient enough to tell us on the phone or over a beer how to set it up?

My friend is pretty confident that everything will work and is completent with normal systems but this is quite a big installation for him and needs advice on how it all fits together. Once all done we will get the gas engineer to complete his task.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

S plan

 

[j0mpst0rt]

Been a while... but thank you for the S plan. We now have both keston c40's working and i got a spare one i collected yesterday for spare parts.... we now have hot water and central heating. although the central heating is not heating the whole house. we are pressure testing and cleaning the pipes and radiators. as a few of the downstairs radiators are 'black' inside.

so now we looking for a decent coupel of pumps for the 40mm central heating and the 2 zones for the hot water.

 

[j0mpst0rt]

Been a while... but thank you for the S plan. We now have both keston c40's working and i got a spare one i collected yesterday for spare parts.... we now have hot water and central heating. although the central heating is not heating the whole house. we are pressure testing and cleaning the pipes and radiators. as a few of the downstairs radiators are 'black' inside.

so now we looking for a decent coupel of pumps for the 40mm central heating and the 2 zones for the hot water.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Have a look at dab

Also FYI you can't repair any gas appliances unless your gas safe