Help purchasing new central heating system

[mcinnes01]

Hi

My plumber has asked me to purchase my new boiler, tank and accessories and has given me his advice on what I need, but has left the specifics up to me.

And so here I am and a little confused after looking at the many options available.

A little background...

I have a fairly large 115 year old 4 bed mid terrace, with a cellar the full size of the house and we are getting round to doing a loft conversion eventually. (Just the 2 of us currently)

We have 1 bathroom up stairs with a pumped shower fed from the hot water system, a kitchen, utility room and normal shower in the cellar (I know a little weird but the shower is moving to the loft eventually). So 4 outlets in all.

The plumber is a Valliant specialist but will fit anything and is recommended from the family building firm.

Currently we have 37 year old glow warm pumped system.

The current problem is the Y type valve is on upside down and has burnt out 5 valves as it occasionally leaks and drips on itself (we have only been here 6 months and I had the nice surprise of having to unwire it one morning as it shorted half the house). (We are also rewiring)

Currently we have to have the heating on to get hot water as the valve as described above is somewhat manual. We also have issues when a few people visit in that the hot water runs out after 3 people have showered. Also we have no thermostatic control and no radiator in the kitchen which has broken electric underfloor heating.

The plumber has recommended getting a combi boiler and a storage tank and the a 28kw boiler should do the trick because of the store.

The boiler and tank will go next to each other in the cellar where the current boiler is.

We haven't decided fully but we may keep the current plumbing in terms of radiators, but I don't know how old they are and forgot to get the plumber to look at them. The pipework in the cellar is currently sitting on top of the joists and part of this work will include moving this up in to the joist cavity so I can insulate and re-plaster the ceiling in the cellar. The boiler and tank are also moving which will simplify the pipework a little and a lot of the pipework needs removing where the current boiler is as I need to replace 4 joists.

What I am hoping to achieve...

Have as much or enough hot water with the ability to replenish quickly, as I need.
Good water flow (which we have now).
Ability to control heating in different rooms or zones.
I was also thinking S-type valves and perhaps the ability for the shower to switch between using the store or just run direct off the combi for example in summer.

In terms of boilers I was looking at the valliant 837HE and the 210L valliant storage tank maybe, but this is where I need some advice?

I also don't know if the boiler have 2 ports out or if I need a 2 port valve etc?

I don't know the best way or if it is worth control each room or zones? I am doing a home automation project and I was thinking of having inline solenoids on the radiators that I can control myself to control each room separately?

Also I was thinking of putting some radiators in the cellar to help keep it dry but have these on a zone or individually controlled. In terms of control for the zoning or individual rooms this isn't a problem as I do electronics and have a few control ideas already.

I would appreciate your advice in terms of boiler, cylinder, magni clean, valves, stats etc, the proposed system and whether to replace the radiators?

Also where is best to buy this from?

The plumber said if I get a valliant combi, get the valliant cylinder as it makes wiring etc simpler. What are your opinions? I do have a spark working when we do this as I doing a full rewire.

Many thanks,

Andy

 

[mountainman]

Hi Andy
In my humble opinion, your heating engineer should be advising you on the best systems to achieve your goal.
If your plumber is suggesting you approach a forum for advice then I'd be looking to change him for someone who knows their trade.

Regarding the spark, don't over tax the poor soul, they know nothing about heating systems.

 

[stevetheplumber]

if you get a combi the tank is redundent but for a four bed house id replace existing boiler with a system boiler then youll have no problems with rads in the loft later if you want hot water in the loft provided you have good mains pressure id change the existing cylinder for an unvented one but you could do that part later when you do the loft obviously you also need to replace the 3 way valve preferably in a better position

 

[Centralheatking]

If your near the south coast contact Ray Stafford he will do you great advice and a good deal onthe
components. If you are north of Birmingham but south of Carlisle I can help but if you are in Northern Ireland then Croppie is your man .
if your west country or n east we will be able to help but there is nobody I know that covers Foula or Lundy

:mad2:. centralheatking

Hi

My plumber has asked me to purchase my new boiler, tank and accessories and has given me his advice on what I need, but has left the specifics up to me.

And so here I am and a little confused after looking at the many options available.

A little background...

I have a fairly large 115 year old 4 bed mid terrace, with a cellar the full size of the house and we are getting round to doing a loft conversion eventually. (Just the 2 of us currently)

We have 1 bathroom up stairs with a pumped shower fed from the hot water system, a kitchen, utility room and normal shower in the cellar (I know a little weird but the shower is moving to the loft eventually). So 4 outlets in all.

The plumber is a Valliant specialist but will fit anything and is recommended from the family building firm.

Currently we have 37 year old glow warm pumped system.

The current problem is the Y type valve is on upside down and has burnt out 5 valves as it occasionally leaks and drips on itself (we have only been here 6 months and I had the nice surprise of having to unwire it one morning as it shorted half the house). (We are also rewiring)

Currently we have to have the heating on to get hot water as the valve as described above is somewhat manual. We also have issues when a few people visit in that the hot water runs out after 3 people have showered. Also we have no thermostatic control and no radiator in the kitchen which has broken electric underfloor heating.

The plumber has recommended getting a combi boiler and a storage tank and the a 28kw boiler should do the trick because of the store.

The boiler and tank will go next to each other in the cellar where the current boiler is.

We haven't decided fully but we may keep the current plumbing in terms of radiators, but I don't know how old they are and forgot to get the plumber to look at them. The pipework in the cellar is currently sitting on top of the joists and part of this work will include moving this up in to the joist cavity so I can insulate and re-plaster the ceiling in the cellar. The boiler and tank are also moving which will simplify the pipework a little and a lot of the pipework needs removing where the current boiler is as I need to replace 4 joists.

What I am hoping to achieve...

Have as much or enough hot water with the ability to replenish quickly, as I need.
Good water flow (which we have now).
Ability to control heating in different rooms or zones.
I was also thinking S-type valves and perhaps the ability for the shower to switch between using the store or just run direct off the combi for example in summer.

In terms of boilers I was looking at the valliant 837HE and the 210L valliant storage tank maybe, but this is where I need some advice?

I also don't know if the boiler have 2 ports out or if I need a 2 port valve etc?

I don't know the best way or if it is worth control each room or zones? I am doing a home automation project and I was thinking of having inline solenoids on the radiators that I can control myself to control each room separately?

Also I was thinking of putting some radiators in the cellar to help keep it dry but have these on a zone or individually controlled. In terms of control for the zoning or individual rooms this isn't a problem as I do electronics and have a few control ideas already.

I would appreciate your advice in terms of boiler, cylinder, magni clean, valves, stats etc, the proposed system and whether to replace the radiators?

Also where is best to buy this from?

The plumber said if I get a valliant combi, get the valliant cylinder as it makes wiring etc simpler. What are your opinions? I do have a spark working when we do this as I doing a full rewire.

Many thanks,

Andy

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Best is to speak to your gas fitter . If you want to supply gear to save £ then it will cost you a lot more ! I understand why he is not going to detail it all for you as all the info we have is a knowledge build over many years

 

[lame plumber]

I cover Lundy you daft mutt , its the £400 boat ride that puts people off me.

 

[mcinnes01]

Hi,

Thanks for all the replies, I think he wants me to supply the gear maybe to save time as he is one seriously busy guy, but I am just speculating. I'm based in Manchester and the plumber does a lot of work when the family firms plumber is too busy (which he is).

As I'm sure you appreciate I don't pretend to know anything about central heating systems, my understanding was that a System boiler heats a tank which supplies the hot water and drives the central heating and can provide a lot of hot water with good pressure, but this can run out. A combi gives instant hot water, but can give a lower flow rate depending on the size of boiler, but will never run out of hot water. I've recently come across the idea of a combi with a store and you can get this as an all in one such as the Worcester highflow combis that has a little store built in.

Would you say the benefits of a combi + store are out weighed by any negatives?

In which case would you say a bigger combi on its own or a system boiler?

As I have to source myself, is there any where online or manchester way that you could recommend?

Thanks again,

Andy

 

[SafeGasInstall]

There is a good plumber who is a member here Manchester Gas !!! Search this name and make contact with him he will do a good job and he will help you out with everything ! System+uhwc every day

 

[Masood]

Hi,

Thanks for all the replies, I think he wants me to supply the gear maybe to save time as he is one seriously busy guy, but I am just speculating. I'm based in Manchester and the plumber does a lot of work when the family firms plumber is too busy (which he is).

As I'm sure you appreciate I don't pretend to know anything about central heating systems, my understanding was that a System boiler heats a tank which supplies the hot water and drives the central heating and can provide a lot of hot water with good pressure, but this can run out. A combi gives instant hot water, but can give a lower flow rate depending on the size of boiler, but will never run out of hot water. I've recently come across the idea of a combi with a store and you can get this as an all in one such as the Worcester highflow combis that has a little store built in.

Would you say the benefits of a combi + store are out weighed by any negatives?

In which case would you say a bigger combi on its own or a system boiler?

As I have to source myself, is there any where online or manchester way that you could recommend?

Thanks again,

Andy

To answer your points in turn:

If he is too busy to properly plan and specify a system and components at this early stage, get someone else. Any mistakes now will cost more time and money later, and may impact the performance of your expensive new system.

A system boiler will heat a hot water storage cylinder, that is correct. An unvented cylinder will provide hot water at mains pressure. If it is properly sized, you should not run out of hot water. Most unvented cylinders, if paired with a suitably sized boiler, offer very quick recovery times and have one or two (depending on cylinder size) electric immersion heaters as backup, so even if you have guests, you'll only have a short delay before you have hot water again.

Even the largest combi with a thermal store will struggle to adequately service more than two outlets, especially if the boiler is in the cellar and a shower in the attic. For a property your size and with your expansion plans in mind, I would not recommend it. Bear in mind also that a combi will cease to heat the radiators whilst hot water is being run. In an old property with multiple showers being taken consecutively, this can mean the house getting quite chilly until everyone has finished showering.

Personally, in your case I'd be looking at a decent system boiler with unvented cylinder and secondary return. Again, I cannot stress enough - if your plumber is leaving you to basically sink or swim by yourself at this stage, I would seriously consider someone who has the time to do his job properly.

 

[Ermintrude]

100% agree system boiler and a real outfit, not vat dodging muppet. Unvented cylinder .

If you want automated control what level are u going to, will you have a BMS PC / or are u going to give each switch an stat an ip?

If going individual room control run each room back to cellar. Build a manifold using 2 ports . One two port on each zone. Returns just back into manifold by ball valve. U can use John guest or Myson manifolds but not as easy to repair in 7 years time .

U can fix a stat in each room or a programmable stat, then use its relay to activate IP switch - back to controller

Zone valves are actuated by ip relay.

Complicated for a house. But this would allow u to fully control heating from remote location.

I would simply have each zone/ room on Rf stat programmer. (Don't locate RF recivers in basement) fix them in a suitable location on each floor and hard wire back to cellar.

Don't forget weather compensator and if going unvented get a cylinder with Spare coil as I future u may have an additional heat source. Perpetual motion heat units might be feasible next year!!

 

[Barry98]

If your near the south coast contact Ray Stafford he will do you great advice and a good deal onthe
components. If you are north of Birmingham but south of Carlisle I can help but if you are in Northern Ireland then Croppie is your man .
if your west country or n east we will be able to help but there is nobody I know that covers Foula or Lundy

:mad2:. centralheatking

ray only supplies direct to the trade

 

[Centralheatking]

I think your post is really good advice for this and would go along with all you say - I must
admit it was also fun to decipher your text speak with regard to plumbing and heating.

centralheatking

100% agree system boiler and a real outfit, not vat dodging muppet. Unvented cylinder .

If you want automated control what level are u going to, will you have a BMS PC / or are u going to give each switch an stat an ip?

If going individual room control run each room back to cellar. Build a manifold using 2 ports . One two port on each zone. Returns just back into manifold by ball valve. U can use John guest or Myson manifolds but not as easy to repair in 7 years time .

U can fix a stat in each room or a programmable stat, then use its relay to activate IP switch - back to controller

Zone valves are actuated by ip relay.

Complicated for a house. But this would allow u to fully control heating from remote location.

I would simply have each zone/ room on Rf stat programmer. (Don't locate RF recivers in basement) fix them in a suitable location on each floor and hard wire back to cellar.

Don't forget weather compensator and if going unvented get a cylinder with Spare coil as I future u may have an additional heat source. Perpetual motion heat units might be feasible next year!!

 

[mcinnes01]

Hi Ermintrude,

Thanks for the great advice/ideas, I am going very automated and being in to electronics the way I am this is going to be somewhat a custom project, although I am interested in your ip idea? Could you elaborate further, I guess there are commercial products that are assigned an ip? Do you have any examples?

In terms of temperature I am using a 1-wire bus which will allow me to have many sensors all over the place, inside and out, so I will definitely be doing my own temperature compensation. The plumber made a point but I would open it up to you, he said the more valves etc you put in, the more points of failure you introduce in terms of dirt in the system clogging valves over time so they don't properly close.

Ideally I would be able to control each room, but the plumber said perhaps just control each floor, so you can have the heating come on downstairs when you get home from work and upstairs just before you go to bed. But me being me I like the idea of controlling everything.

I looked at the solenoid valves that retro fit your radiator something like watts%20industries%20-%2022c%20electrothermic%20actuators%20-%20advanced%20water%20company/.

Alternatively I was thinking of something like an in line valve like ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-24V-2-Port-2-Way-1-4-PT-Female-Thread-Pneumatic-Electric-Solenoid-Valve-/121157359590?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1c358a97e6.

Cat5 is being run to each radiator, this can carry either 24v to control the solenoids or any other signal.

I will definitely look for twin coil cylinder, would you recommend getting an open vented one the same make as the boiler or is there a particular brand you would recommend? Also do you think 210L is enough?

Finally what are your opinions on the green deal / scrapage scheme, this may be a rude word on this forum, but I notice B****sh Gas are offering £400 scrap for your old boiler and can do the green deal offer £270 ish off boilers?

Thanks again,

Andy

 

[dancinplumba]

Anyone will give you 400 scrappage, I will give you 1000 . I will just add it to the bill

 

[dancinplumba]

Why not use a manifold system for rads ? Like you have with underfloor heating ? Makes control and wiring simpler

 

[Ermintrude]

Wash your mouth out. Boiler scrap? I will give you £9000 back but job is going to cost u £18000.

Get a better plumber.

Run flow and return to each room. Build a service riser into your house and radiate from it. Trays for 240 and segregated basket for cat 5.

All switching 240 and use Honeywell 2 port valves. Bus cable may make a lot of noise, are you familiar with control algorithms? You need at a minimum PID to avoid overshoot.

Oversize your rads by 15% at a delta T of 35c not 55 and crop end of heat up. Compensator should lift set point and keep curve fixed.

http://www.robot-electronics.co.uk/htm/eth_rly16tech.htm

210L ok. ACV will give you correct spec if you contact them. I would use the ideal logic system boiler. Small powerful and reliable.

Are you competent programmer as your controls only as good as what's managing it all.

 

[mutley racers]

Wash your mouth out. Boiler scrap? I will give you £9000 back but job is going to cost u £18000.

Get a better plumber.

Run flow and return to each room. Build a service riser into your house and radiate from it. Trays for 240 and segregated basket for cat 5.

All switching 240 and use Honeywell 2 port valves. Bus cable may make a lot of noise, are you familiar with control algorithms? You need at a minimum PID to avoid overshoot.

Oversize your rads by 15% at a delta T of 35c not 55 and crop end of heat up. Compensator should lift set point and keep curve fixed.

Ethernet RLY16

210L ok. ACV will give you correct spec if you contact them. I would use the ideal logic system boiler. Small powerful and reliable.

Are you competent programmer as your controls only as good as what's managing it all.

What the heck does all that mean?

 

[Ermintrude]

Why not use a manifold system for rads ? Like you have with underfloor heating ? Makes control and wiring simpler

Harder to use with ip as no microswitch .

 

[Ermintrude]

What the heck does all that mean?

Basically it's about control, when u heat up a room if rad size calculated using a 35c difference as the quality mfrs. cheap ones use 55 so a crap rad appears to have a higher output than it actally does.

If rad slightly oversized u can cut heating to rad before room hits desired temp, residual heat in rad tickles room upto temp and avoids overshoot (sweating ur nuts off because room stat said 21 but rads still going at 25c )

Ip switching is basically using Internet to operate a switch.

Compensator modulates flow temp dependant on external temp.

 

[mutley racers]

Thanks for clearing that up. I still have a lot to learn!!!

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Anything is posible to be installed and over complicate but can you afford it and is there really need for it !
If you can afford it
if you do need it
Go for it , but make sure you know what you really want before work begin AGAIN .
I you don't you will be spending more time here then home enjoying your heating

 

[doitmyself]

We haven't decided fully but we may keep the current plumbing in terms of radiators, but I don't know how old they are and forgot to get the plumber to look at them.

If the system is 37 years old it may be a single pipe circuit.

I am doing a home automation project

Take a look at the Domotica Forum. It's all about home automation.