Is this acceptable?

[Jimmy2k]

Just had plumber come round to take heating pipes down from upstairs down to new radiator in the living room. Couple of things:

1. He said the conduit would look neat just like on the original work done in the house - I don't think it does.



2. He's taken quite a large chunk out of one of the joists - apparently it shouldn't be more than 1/8th of the height of the joist, this one has gone from total height of 17cm down to 10cm at the deepest part of the cut (the closest pipe to the picture).







Should I be concerned about any of this? If so what is the best way to go about putting it right?

 

[Destroyer2813]

Did he tie his horse up outside while he did it , butchered his way through the coving butchered the joist and certainly wouldn't use ballofix on heating will eventually leak

 

[Howsie]

Conduit is personal choice, they rest of it isn't. Isolation valves are wrong, the notching is as well and the pipe seems to be resting on the joist which will creak.

Horrible job IMHO and no decent plumber worth his salt would would have done it like that.

Where did you get his details?

 

[Jimmy2k]

He said he put the stop valves on there to avoid having to drain the system or something...

Is there a risk the joist isn't structurally stable anymore as he's cut that much through?

Got his details from next door neighbour - come to think of it the other guy he recommended was a cowboy...

I think trading standards says I have to give him opportunity to fix mistakes but I don't want him trying to fix the coving - I will have to do that myself as I want it looking good again. But it's my time and money... Could I try and fix another piece of wood to the joist to make it more stable? But then there's the ballofix joints, I don't want them on there if they'll leak...

What shall I do about this?

 

[Howsie]

The joists can be strengthened. The valves replaced.

 

[Riley]

It's not acceptable but is he a plumber or a builder or a handyman? I would say definitely not the work of a plumber

 

[Jimmy2k]

Plumber. He was talking about the "big jobs" he's got lined up for this week and next.

 

[Howsie]

Plumber. He was talking about the "big jobs" he's got lined up for this week and next.

Big jobs watching other people's houses fall down...

 

[Best]

It is all a mess, except the conduit - which is acceptable and the coving can be very easily repaired with suitable lightweight plaster. Although I would have tried to do no damage to coving in the first place.
The Ballofix valves shouldn't be on any heating pipes and didn't need to be installed in the first place!
The joists look like others have also cut far too much depth in them.
Your guy has done it all wrong and kept the pipes at different levels from the tees and then cutting joist to suit that lower level. Classic DIY lazy "plumber" cowboy methods.
I wouldn't pay for the labour.

 

[Best]

Plumber. He was talking about the "big jobs" he's got lined up for this week and next.

Although a lot of tradespeople like to brag that they have "big" jobs to make themselves seem important, but this talk is very common with guys who are useless idiots and not in any way capable. Definitely not a real plumber.

 

[hammers4spanner]

Whats at the end of those tee's ?

Looks like a soldered cap end on one and a massive kink in other??

 

[REDSAW]

those notches look like they were done before hand at least one of them.
the ballofix wont leak unless the valves are open and closed, i have 2 on my kitchen rad that i have been on for 8 years but dont leak (yeh, i know. but i keep moving the position of the rad 3 times.lol)

would also like to see some one run 2 pipes through that coving without a little damage, especially if you think 2 18mm holes would give perfect access to the run!! polyfill--£1.50 from wilko's!

that also looks like a £250 job, what did you get charged?

 

[mache]

Whats at the end of those tee's ?

Looks like a soldered cap end on one and a massive kink in other??

I don't think anyone has been so lavish as to spend money on an end cap. Looks more like mutilated with a pair of grips and then soldered closed to me.

 

[jonnyswamp]

It's not brilliant, pipes in trunking could do with more nail clips, it would pull all the trunking tight against the wall
Coving could have been cut better and filled after (unless you agreed to decorate where needed after work was done)
Too much cut out of joist, but I've seen deeper cuts that were 30 yrs old under baths and hadn't moved (older timbers were stronger mind you)
I've used ballofixes (isolation valves) dozens of times on heating pipes and find they're fine as long as they're not used like a tap (probly get a call tomorrow about a leak)
All in all, not the best job by a long chalk, but not the worst unfortunately
If your worried about the joist, bolt a 4 x 2 either side of the offending one and you'll be fine

 

[Best]

The joists notches strangely look very freshly cut, yet I assume there have always been pipes there before. Cowboy job though, - there should never have been 2 notches cut as all it needed was one set of 15mm pipes and tees off them between the joists. I really despair how poor jobs are done. It's like a first day apprentice would do if left alone. I give no excuse to that work.
The Ballofix valves can leak without being touched. Heat destroys the seals inside them, - I have seen some leaking.
Also, why would Ballofix valves, or any valves be fitted there? How would that make a job easier when new tees were to be fitted? If you needed to keep the branch pipe sealed, it could have been done with a temporary stopend and then push the pipe into the tee later.

 

[lame plumber]

it would not have taken much effort to have used the o.ld notch, tidied the old Ts up and run the 10mm off a tee used for the 15mm all in one go with ef fittings. Re the coving I tend to drill some holes and fill in after, I hate plastic conduit and prefer tidy drops tight into the corner, which can be covered in with some boxing in if the customer wants.

Looks more handy man job or makee learnee plumber early on in their career who needs a bit of a slapping

An electric pipe freezer would have solved any drain down issues as well.

 

[REDSAW]

The joists notches strangely look very freshly cut, yet I assume there have always been pipes there before. Cowboy job though, - there should never have been 2 notches cut as all it needed was one set of 15mm pipes and tees off them between the joists. I really despair how poor jobs are done. It's like a first day apprentice would do if left alone. I give no excuse to that work.
The Ballofix valves can leak without being touched. Heat destroys the seals inside them, - I have seen some leaking.
Also, why would Ballofix valves, or any valves be fitted there? How would that make a job easier when new tees were to be fitted? If you needed to keep the branch pipe sealed, it could have been done with a temporary stopend and then push the pipe into the tee later.

hear what your saying.
but the guy had probably fitted it got paid and off to another job while you were still thinking about it!
its all down to 'how much' and how long to do the job is what you get.
if someone asked me to do it for £150 that would do me, £250 and i will re-route pipes, pin the joist, solder the joints & even fill in the coving
ballofix wont leak, the lime scale will stop that unless opened and closed!!

 

[newcastle phill]

Original pipework is kinked to hell (top left) and looks like got massive blob of solder on (previous leak ??? )
Looking at the small bore coming off the Tee toward the top centre - that is kinked too but original ????
Notches could have been done different with a bit of pipework creativity using one notch.
Ball valves a matter of choice but i think pointless and inaccessible when flooring down..
Conduit is conduit - love it or hate it. Other way would have been a couple of battons and a bit plasterboard and skim.
If he had the right tools that cornice could have been preserved almost to fit the conduit ( multi tool anyone )

Its rough - but what did you pay amd what we're the other quotes ?

 

[Howsie]

No temporary fittings under the floor...

Service valves? Drain it, freeze it or go home.

 

[lame plumber]

No temporary fittings under the floor...

have them on the wall

 

[REDSAW]

No temporary fittings under the floor...

that include the jguest pushfits then?

 

[Howsie]

I would say so.

 

[goz666]

My eyes are fading fast and my glasses don't seem to be helping but pic2 looks like he has 15mm coming off one ball-o-fix, then 15mm to a 15-10 straight comp reducing socket. Looks like two 15mm pipes downstairs though, or is it my eyes ??

Sorry, looking again it could be 10mm through a reducer coming off that ball-o-fix, can't see it too well though !!

 

[REDSAW]

I would say so.

better they rip up all the new build floors up around here then, the city is full of pushfit heating systems!

personaly i'd rather not as i wouldnt want blaming for one that decided to leak after, keeping all joints above floor level.
but, if needs be no problem. i find they leak just as much as a floorboard nail through the pipe.lol

 

[JCplumb]

A plumbing company came out to my mums about 15 years ago to install central heating, they did something similar to one of her joists, it was a doubled up joist that supported an internal brick wall.
I pulled the guy up about it and he said it's fine, they do it all the time. I was in my second year of my plumbing course and it had been drilled into us that you can only notch 1/8th of a joist and there's only a certain part of the span you can notch.
Anyway, ended up phoning his supervisor, who agreed with him, so called the head office. They sent a structural engineer round (said I'd have to pay £120/hour if no problem was found) who condemned it and acro propped it until they could get someone to strengthen it to building regs. The total cost to the plumbing company was about 2 grand.
This was a well known company too.
So my advice, looking at those 'notches' would be to get someone in who is qualified to assess them and go from there.
Inform the 'plumber' that you're doing this and give him the option of putting it right. If there's no problem - you pay the bill for having them looked at, if he actually has undermined the strength of that joist to a point where it is unsafe, then he pays for the remedial work.

I don't like to call another plumbers work, you never know what the circumstances were, I've done some jobs I wasn't completely happy with because of customers insisting on keeping the price down and cutting corners, but that is bad, I'd be livid if it was my house.

 

[Best]

hear what your saying.
but the guy had probably fitted it got paid and off to another job while you were still thinking about it!
its all down to 'how much' and how long to do the job is what you get.
if someone asked me to do it for £150 that would do me, £250 and i will re-route pipes, pin the joist, solder the joints & even fill in the coving
ballofix wont leak, the lime scale will stop that unless opened and closed!!

I must admit that entire job would have taken me as much as a day perhaps to do it right. Definitely half a day for sure.
And the only bit the customer only usually sees is the rad and pipe drops.

 

[Howsie]

It's in the regs somewhere isn't it. No temporary fittings below ground.

 

[REDSAW]

It's in the regs somewhere isn't it. No temporary fittings below ground.

yeh, for gas fittings!

 

[REDSAW]

I must admit that entire job would have taken me as much as a day perhaps to do it right. Definitely half a day for sure.
And the only bit the customer only usually sees is the rad and pipe drops.

and the price they paid in comparison to the 'other bloke' who was twice as much!!!

 

[Howsie]

yeh, for gas fittings!

Old and confused.

 

[lame plumber]

Old and confused.

with a wet patch on his trouser fly..............

 

[Howsie]

And currently mustard...

 

[REDSAW]

And currently mustard...

bit of egg yolk on the tie to match.lol

 

[Jimmy2k]

Thanks for your replies.

He's charged £240 for the job (including reconnecting an outside pipe with copper instead of plastic tubing although he used big white plastic push-fit connectors on outside of the house too) - but I supplied the radiator.

I'm sure it's difficult to run pipes into coving but he said it would look like the other boxed-in drop pipes in the room which it clearly does not. If he had used a multitool or even a bit of care or measurement then I think it would have looked better rather than just bashing a hole in the coving.

I'll have to have a think about what to do - either pay him and fix myself or get second opinion from other plumber and see what it might cost to fix.

 

[REDSAW]

Thanks for your replies.

He's charged £240 for the job (including reconnecting an outside pipe with copper instead of plastic tubing although he used big white plastic push-fit connectors on outside of the house too) - but I supplied the radiator.

I'm sure it's difficult to run pipes into coving but he said it would look like the other boxed-in drop pipes in the room which it clearly does not. If he had used a multitool or even a bit of care or measurement then I think it would have looked better rather than just bashing a hole in the coving.

I'll have to have a think about what to do - either pay him and fix myself or get second opinion from other plumber and see what it might cost to fix.

just get a years warranty from him cover it up?
did he bash the coving or try to cut it? sometimes a piece just falls out!
and what was the state under floor boards before he started/how many notches did he chop?

 

[Jimmy2k]

Bashed I think.

Didn't check under the floor before the job but no real reason for the notch to be there apart from to take that pipe.

I suppose I can fix what I think needs fixing and if anything goes wrong then go back to him.

 

[plumben]

Thanks for your replies.

He's charged £240 for the job (including reconnecting an outside pipe with copper instead of plastic tubing although he used big white plastic push-fit connectors on outside of the house too) - but I supplied the radiator.

I'm sure it's difficult to run pipes into coving but he said it would look like the other boxed-in drop pipes in the room which it clearly does not. If he had used a multitool or even a bit of care or measurement then I think it would have looked better rather than just bashing a hole in the coving.

I'll have to have a think about what to do - either pay him and fix myself or get second opinion from other plumber and see what it might cost to fix.

As others have said, I don't like to make comment on other peoples work, that said I've turned down jobs because the money wasn't in the job to do it right and i'd rather not do the job than do a bad job and potentially ruin my reputation,

My advise would be to get a quote off another plumber to make good his mistakes and get a structural engineer/ surveyor round to look at the joist, then go from there, don't pay him a single penny until you've done these to things, but let him know your not happy with his work, your getting it looked at and will pay him if no fault is found or if he rectifys the things your not happy with/that aren't up to scratch,

Your home is Your castle and you've got to live there as said some things like the coving are sometimes un avoidable and can be made good fairly easy, however notching a joist far too much because your lazy is no excuse

 

[Jimmy2k]

Thanks for that. Might take your advice and report back what happens.

 

[hammers4spanner]

Am i reading this right ?

The job was £250 , the plumbs has supplied a double radiator plus valves, the trunking and pipe plus sundries supplied .

He or she has then gone under the floor to cut into all this .

If this is correct then£250!!!!

 

[hammers4spanner]

Sorry missed a bit i see its 240 and you supplied the rad (its morning)

 

[Jimmy2k]

I supplied the double radiator and had already taken up the carpet upstairs as we're awaiting new carpet to be fitted.

 

[hammers4spanner]

Is touch rough however i have seen a lot worse than that .

Personally if it was my house i would let it go your house won't fall down .

Most older houses round here that have been renovated numerous times have much worse under the floor than that .

Are they still standing.

 

[Jimmy2k]

Thanks for that. Nice to know it's possibly not as bad as I thought - we wanted a quick job before new carpet comes and that's probably what we got. As was said above - the joist can be strengthened and the coving replaced.

Thanks for everyone's help / replies!

 

[clarky101]

Polyfiller on the coveing probably no more than a 10 minute job....the joists won't come through your ceiling .....put your carpet down & forget it.....then move...

 

[cdodds2004]

agreed you see much worse in some joists! the pipe has to go through somewhere. if you worked the loads out etc probably say the joist is compromised, but its 1 joist it wont go anywere! Its like foundations on houses if a structural engineer looked at the footings on my house they would say its inadequate blah blah blah! house is still here after 120 years! sometimes these formulas they have take things to far and a bit of common sense needs to prevail. Although its a bit rough and not how i would of done it i have seen far far worse!

 

[REDSAW]

the older the house is, the more the joist size was guessed anyway or whatever they had in the yard!!

the joists in my house run front to back 6'' x 2'' in one length of 7 metres with 3 brick bedroom walls on top of them!:ack2:

 

[joni os]

Check out the actual span of the notched joist. The notch has reduced the 170 x 50 to the equivalent of a 100 x 50 joist. If the span exceeds 2.5 metres structural integrity has been compromised. The span is the clear distance between supports and should not be confused with the total length of joist.

 

[plumben]

I was on a job once and the hole backroom floor was like a trampoline, after someone had notched 5 22mm pipes in a row and they where all tight notches

 

[snoopy8888]

why put ballofix under floor ?

 

[Jimmy2k]

Joists span 3.4m by a rough estimate. The deepest notch is 15" out from the wall.

Apparently he could fit the new radiator without draining the system by doing it this way. He put a bung in the header tank somewhere and switched off the heating allowing him to make the cuts, put the valves on and then do the rest of the work...

Another pic of the layout (this is in upstairs bedroom and the new pipes are teeing off to the downstairs radiator):