Eco deal question

[diamondgas]

Hi folks,

I was asked by a Letting Agent whether installation done through Eco should have TRV's fitted? I pointed him towards Par L of the building regs regards new and replacement boilers that states that they do need to be fitted. I was wondering though what your thoughts are and whether these are a requirement?

I know that it's a contentious issue and that there's a get out clause regards whether the customer wants it or not! However through the Eco deal who wouldn't say yes? My question is, are trv's suppose to be fitted by those undertaking boiler replacements through ECO?

This should be interesting

Cheers!

 

[Ray Stafford]

I was asked by a Letting Agent whether installation done through Eco should have TRV's fitted?

I think your letting agent needs to be clearer what he means by the word "should".

There is a big difference between "You should do xyz in order to conform with best practice" and "You should do xyz because you are contractually obliged to".

I suspect that in the case that you raise, the answer is "yes" if you are asking the best practice question, and "no" if you are asking the contractual obligation question.

 

[chris watkins]

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/domestic_building_services_compliance_guide.pdf
New Part L comes into force in April next year, have a look at Page 19 TRV's are required (not just best practice)
This is a much better guide to what is required & when. IMHO

 

[diamondgas]

I think your letting agent needs to be clearer what he means by the word "should".

There is a big difference between "You should do xyz in order to conform with best practice" and "You should do xyz because you are contractually obliged to".

I suspect that in the case that you raise, the answer is "yes" if you are asking the best practice question, and "no" if you are asking the contractual obligation question.

Are you saying that the improvements offered via eco DO NOT require the installer to fit thermostatic radiator valves Ray? Where would I find evidence that backs that up? I'd like to point the guy in the right direction.

 

[diamondgas]

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/domestic_building_services_compliance_guide.pdf
New Part L comes into force in April next year, have a look at Page 19 TRV's are required (not just best practice)
This is a much better guide to what is required & when. IMHO

Thanks for the link Chris... Quick check of page 19 and I see "emergency" and "planned" I couldn't find the interpretation of what that meant ... ?

 

[Ray Stafford]

Are you saying that the improvements offered via eco DO NOT require the installer to fit thermostatic radiator valves Ray? Where would I find evidence that backs that up? I'd like to point the guy in the right direction.

No I am not saying that. I am saying that the contract between the installer and the householder/landlord is not the same thing as the requirements or recommendations of building control.

It is possible to satisfy one without satisfying the other.

 

[diamondgas]

No I am not saying that. I am saying that the contract between the installer and the householder/landlord is not the same thing as the requirements or recommendations of building control.

It is possible to satisfy one without satisfying the other.

hmmm interesting! I hear what you're saying, my 'but' is though; the landlord/agent who was a major party to having the tenants get in touch with the eco scheme seems to believe that there should have been trv's fitted. Also wouldn't the installer be contravening building regs if they didn't fit trv's and would therefore be recommending that they be fitted?

I reckon the installers are banging these jobs off as quick as they can or even worse the company winning the installation are then hiring installers to do the work as quickly as they can, paying them the minimum and fleecing those who are paying for the scheme!!

That aside though, is it a have to do to pass the necessary installation requirements of the eco deal?

 

[jefaz]

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/domestic_building_services_compliance_guide.pdf
New Part L comes into force in April next year, have a look at Page 19 TRV's are required (not just best practice)
This is a much better guide to what is required & when. IMHO

how much is that going to add in a heating system install? People can barely afford it now

 

[diamondgas]

how much is that going to add in a heating system install? People can barely afford it now

Have you never quoted to fit TRV's on boiler change? I thought that its been building regs for ages? Anyhoo's ... that doesn't help with my question regards eco!!

 

[Roger Welton]

Section 1.7 of the design guide still states that I a component is replaced, it even gives the example of a boiler, that only that component has to comply and there is no obligation to upgrade rest of the system.

 

[jefaz]

Have you never quoted to fit TRV's on boiler change? I thought that its been building regs for ages? Anyhoo's ... that doesn't help with my question regards eco!!

Of course but you didn't HAVE to install them so it's was an optional extra expense!!

 

[woodsy]

I thought it was a legal requirement bought in several years ago, and even had Gassafe check that I had installed them on on an inspection

 

[chris watkins]

how much is that going to add in a heating system install? People can barely afford it now

So you just will not comply with any Laws that add costs to any of the job you do then ??
Do you clean the system, add inhibitor, complete the commissioning, register the new boiler with GSR etc etc?? all add cost to the job, I am sure if you don't you could do a really cheap job that more could afford but who would benefit. ?

 

[jefaz]

So you just will not comply with any Laws that add costs to any of the job you do then ??
Do you clean the system, add inhibitor, complete the commissioning, register the new boiler with GSR etc etc?? all add cost to the job, I am sure if you don't you could do a really cheap job that more could afford but who would benefit. ?

Hang on....who said I wasn't going to do it? Where in that statement did I say I will not comply,you have made a number if assumptions there my friend. I was just making a comment that people who can now 'just afford' a boiler won't be able to then as the extra costs incurred in materials plus labour.

 

[chris watkins]

But if something is required, it is required, who are you to decide what people can & can't afford. Suggesting that these things are optional extras just encourages those who want to pay the bare minimum to ignore the Laws of the land, at the expense of those who are trying to do the right thing. As has have said a number of times on here, it is very easy to race to the bottom!!

The case, after all, for installing TRV's / room stats etc with with any boiler change is very strong, it not only costs but saves money & carbon.
(not so much for Landlords though, who are the ones for some reason lest keen to upgrade IMHO)

 

[jefaz]

I'm not deciding!! You're not getting what I am saying. If they need done they need done. What I am saying is in these economic times people struggle to pay for the bare essentials as it stands. Adding more that you have to fit will increase the burden on low income families who have to fork out extra to comply with the new regs. Why would you assume I was going to flout the regs? I keep strictly within the regs every singe time I'm at work.
And at the moment are TRVS not optional?

 

[Nostrum]

You can get cheaply trvs for about £6. A lock shield is about £2 so a 7 rad system is only going to cost and extra £24 for trvs, there's not really an excuse and the expense will be saved within a year anyway.

 

[jefaz]

You can get cheaply trvs for about £6. A lock shield is about £2 so a 7 rad system is only going to cost and extra £24 for trvs, there's not really an excuse and the expense will be saved within a year anyway.

Check your maths

 

[Nostrum]

6 x £4 = £24 by my reckoning, no trv on the room with a room stat. :whatchutalkingabout

 

[jefaz]

Hehe!! Anyway I fear everyone has got me wrong here. I'm Not saying a it's a bad thing or anything like that. I'm just saying what excuses will be used. I won't be fitting boilers anyway so it matters not to me!!

 

[chris watkins]

I think you are right jefaz, there is miss understanding on both sides, always a problem when typing sort replays but here is an extract from the current compliance guide for Part L if you have a look it is clear the existing systems must be upgraded to the same level as a new system i.e. TRV's on all rads except reference room (one with thermostat fitted) & bathrooms (& I still fit em in baths / showers)
Just to move it on somewhat it is also a requirement that the primaries between the boiler & cylinder are insulated only found that one out a couple of months ago myself.

 

[Nostrum]

Is this the current or forthcoming version chris? I know they have backtracked on zoning finally but not sure what else has been changed, haven't had a chance to look at it in detail.

 

[chris watkins]

Is this the current or forthcoming version chris? I know they have backtracked on zoning finally but not sure what else has been changed, haven't had a chance to look at it in detail.

The extract in post 21 is current 2010 (2011) as link http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/domestic_building_compliance_guide_2010.pdf
As you say Nostrum it seems they have back tract on the thorny zoning (gone back to the old if more than 150M2) as of 6th April next year (2014) new pumps get a mention as does insulation of whole primary pipes.

 

[Nostrum]

I think its a step in the right direction, the zoning makes a lot more sense. Not sure many will be ripping up floors to insulate existing primaries though.

 

[chris watkins]

I think its a step in the right direction, the zoning makes a lot more sense. Not sure many will be ripping up floors to insulate existing primaries though.

No I agree but would be nice to see it on a new build ?? it has after all been in for a good couple of years.
Just where are the police to enforce these, just so are all on a level playing field, a.

 

[Ermintrude]

Let's concentrate on the big ones first ? Illegal installs, signing off mates work , under gassed no vents and spilling appliances?

 

[tamz]

The big one is the amount of money (our money) being squandered installing things that are not up to standards in spec or installation and don't get me started on landlords getting their houses done up for free.

 

[Ermintrude]

The big one is the amount of money (our money) being squandered installing things that are not up to standards in spec or installation and don't get me started on landlords getting their houses done up for free.

But it's a good thing. Government helping big businesses .... Again. Isn't ray secretary or state for energy?

 

[chris watkins]

Let's concentrate on the big ones first ? Illegal installs, signing off mates work , under gassed no vents and spilling appliances?

Can't we do both ? it is just with mine (new builds) the policeman is already on site it is just he doesn't know what he is looking at ? With yours Ermi, he has got to get of his metaphorical bum & go out & investigate them!!
Always happened Tamz, don't make it easer to bare, sometimes it just has to come down to ones own moral compass.

 

[Reltub]

In that part L extract it says 'recommended minimum standards' so is it a recommendation or is that the law? Open to interpretation that one.

 

[chris watkins]

In that part L extract it says 'recommended minimum standards' so is it a recommendation or is that the law? Open to interpretation that one.

No, it is normally taken as the Minimum Required (i.e. TRV's), with modern controls there are lots of ways to achieve the same end & it does not want to say the TRVs must be used which would preclude the use or other possible better ways.

 

[Mike Jackson]

I'm finding a lot of elderly customers don't like or understand TRVs so don't want them fitted. Even when you explain to them they either have them full up or turned off. Seems a bit pointless spending a tenner a rad on valves if they are only going to get used as on off valves.

Having said that I always recommend they are fitted but put the price as an extra to make sure my price can be compared with those who don't bother and give customers the option.

 

[diamondgas]

Great debate all, thanks for all the replies

Like you Tamz I think it's diabolical that Landlords get this work done free, especially those who let their properties go to ruin as long as they're getting the money from the government (Our Taxes)!

As Chris has posted ... It is a Building regulation to fit TRV's. That is legal stuff so those who don't flaunt the law IMO! Local authorities are charged with upholding this law alas and that's where it all goes to pot! Who's ever reported anyone for not fitting TRV's I wonder? And what would the local authority do with that?

From what I have read so far though am I right in saying that the installers installing replacement boilers under the ECO scheme should be installing TRV's or an equivalent individual room temp control, otherwise they'd be contravening building regulations yeh?

 

[Reltub]

The way i see it is they are 'recommended' standards and that on an upgrade you dont have to.

Would be easier if the document was clearer to reduce mis-interpretation.

I personally always fit them.

 

[Nostrum]

The actual building regulations state:

reasonable provision shall be made for the conservation of fuel and power in buildings by;

providing fixed buildings services which-

(i) are energy efficient
(ii) have effective controls.....

so how you go about achieving this is open to interpretation but the approved doc L and the domestic building services compliance guide both give examples of ways of achieving this with TRVs.

So, without trvs can you say that the building has effective controls, is energy efficient and has adequate provision for conserving heat?

But who's checking? It's actually the property owner who would be responsible for ensuring it complies with the building regs, but they will wave your self certified building regulation certificate you supplied them through gas safe or whatever and who knows what the outcome would be, hypothetically speaking of course as it's never going to happen.

 

[diamondgas]

But who's checking? It's actually the property owner who would be responsible for ensuring it complies with the building regs, but they will wave your self certified building regulation certificate you supplied them through gas safe or whatever and who knows what the outcome would be, hypothetically speaking of course as it's never going to happen.

And then what "property owner" would know that these regulations existed, they'd rely on the installer to let them know what's best for them! Alas, in my experience, the vast majority of installers opt to offer the customer what's best for 'them'!!b ................... Most profit at least expense in time and money!

 

[Nostrum]

Yeah exactly.

This is where the governing bodies need to pull their fingers out across the board. Customers don't know they should receive a certificate for gas, oil, water, windows or whatever so don't appreciate all of the different accreditation bodies worth.

What makes it worse is their are indemnity insurance policies available that offer a get it clause for having a certificate of compliance when you sell the house. Where's the incentive to get a job done properly ( at a slight extra expense) by a reputable firm if you can just buy your way out of it all if/when it bites you in the arse?

 

[diamondgas]

My original question regarding eco though? I'm guessing there must be a governing body that's allowing approved companies to upgrade old appliances and benefit from the mony they're providing.. I wonder if this is just lip service for the government to prove they're conforming to 'green' requirements and doesn't realy give a toss to regulations! So those getting the cash are then cracking the whip and getting sub contractors to cut corners? *sigh*

 

[Ermintrude]

My original question regarding eco though? I'm guessing there must be a governing body that's allowing approved companies to upgrade old appliances and benefit from the mony they're providing.. I wonder if this is just lip service for the government to prove they're conforming to 'green' requirements and doesn't realy give a toss to regulations! So those getting the cash are then cracking the whip and getting sub contractors to cut corners? *sigh*

Pas2030 is the standard qualification me thinks and it contains only guidelines . Interlock is required to be provided and that's it?

 

[Nostrum]

My experience of eco work is that it should comply with part L and everything else.

You could find out who the main contractor is and complain to the certification body and the funding provider. The tenant should have all the paperwork with the contact details on.

 

[Nostrum]

Pas2030 is the standard qualification me thinks and it contains only guidelines . Interlock is required to be provided and that's it?

No that's not correct mate, PAS2030 is the standard and it refers to all the relevant standards and requirements. Whether or not the installers stick to the standard is another story (same with anything else) but if they are not then they are not complying with PAS2030. Part of the handover includes a declaration to confirm it has been installed to PAS2030, so yet again someone is falsely claiming to have done so.

the only way to approach is to contact the provider (who pays the installer once the paperwork has been received) or the certification body who issued the installation company their PAS2030. to be honest the provider might not give a toss as they are earning money of the whole thing as well.

 

[Nostrum]

Here is an extract from PAS2030 for gas condensing boilers

 

[diamondgas]

My experience of eco work is that it should comply with part L and everything else.

You could find out who the main contractor is and complain to the certification body and the funding provider. The tenant should have all the paperwork with the contact details on.

I'm not the one to complain to be honest but I know the letting agent will if they are aware that they're not getting "all they deserve" free of charge!! *sigh* that pizzes me off but , hey-hum! I guess they still have a 'right', and if it were my mum I'd be fighting for all they deserve under what the rules are! I've emailed my local authority to hopefuly I'll get some direction....:lol:

Its interesting to see here and in other posts how much knowledge and feeling differ on what is a regulation, far as i can tell!

 

[Ermintrude]

But reading the guide its only recommended to have trvs? And you can still comply with part L with just a wireless programmable stat?

90's 3 bed semi open plan ground floor inc open stair case, all heat ends up at top of stairs trvs ain't going to keep gf warm and bedrooms at 19? Needs heat pump or a door on stairs? That would conserve more energy and better comply IMHO?

 

[diamondgas]

Here is an extract from PAS2030 for gas condensing boilers

That's the stuff I like to see they must conform to building regulations!

NOT 'my own pocket' regulations ..

However I believe the latter prevail and the custard looses out to greed!!

 

[diamondgas]

TRV's are individual room control. and if .....BIG IF!!! the system is designed and balanced correctly then individual control allows the end user to decide whether they want their room colder than regulations state they should be... or at least be able to control the temp in any other circumstance yeh?

 

[Nostrum]

But reading the guide its only recommended to have trvs? And you can still comply with part L with just a wireless programmable stat?

90's 3 bed semi open plan ground floor inc open stair case, all heat ends up at top of stairs trvs ain't going to keep gf warm and bedrooms at 19? Needs heat pump or a door on stairs? That would conserve more energy and better comply IMHO?

Trvs are a recommended way of complying with the requirements set out in the building regulations.

you could argue that the system you propose above is also a way to comply (ie is energy efficient and has effective control)

I think you would struggle to argue that a system with no TRVs has effective control.

part L is guidance, that said isn't it a lot easier to follow the guidance to ensure compliance, unless you have an alternative that exceeds the performance of a TRVs.

This is why it is open ended, not to be able to avoid fitting them, but to allow superior products to be used in place of them. (My understanding of it anyway)

 

[Nostrum]

TRV's are individual room control. and if .....BIG IF!!! the system is designed and balanced correctly then individual control allows the end user to decide whether they want their room colder than regulations state they should be... or at least be able to control the temp in any other circumstance yeh?

TRVs are a way to conserve energy by turning the radiator off when not required (ie the room is hot enough as defined by the end user) less water heated, less energy used.

The temperature of the room as far as I'm aware is not a requirement in the building regulations, but part L and the domestic building services compliance guide offer guidance on what is a reasonable temperature for comfort and energy conservation. Otherwise you'd have to be able to lock the trv at that temperature like you do a lock shield valve once the correct dT was achieved. (Try telling that to the 90 year old who likes it at 26+)

But comfort doesn't really come into it from a regulatory point of view, it's all about savings the polar bears.

 

[Ermintrude]

The optimum is individual zone or room interlock. I don't like trvs! They are usually always on 5 and windows open in bedrooms but April 2014 it's trv or highway!

 

[diamondgas]

If you were/are a landlord and privy to building regulations, you have a tenant on income support and acceptable for an upgrade on the ECO deal, would you complain if the installer did not fit TRV's?

Now there's a question to you who are now aware of regulations! ........................ Regardless of what you would do! Would you push for TRV's given the circumstances?

Just moving on some... I hope