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diamondgas

Hi folks,

I was asked by a Letting Agent whether installation done through Eco should have TRV's fitted? I pointed him towards Par L of the building regs regards new and replacement boilers that states that they do need to be fitted. I was wondering though what your thoughts are and whether these are a requirement?

I know that it's a contentious issue and that there's a get out clause regards whether the customer wants it or not! However through the Eco deal who wouldn't say yes? My question is, are trv's suppose to be fitted by those undertaking boiler replacements through ECO?

This should be interesting :)

Cheers!
 
diamondgas said:
I was asked by a Letting Agent whether installation done through Eco should have TRV's fitted?
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I think your letting agent needs to be clearer what he means by the word "should".

There is a big difference between "You should do xyz in order to conform with best practice" and "You should do xyz because you are contractually obliged to".

I suspect that in the case that you raise, the answer is "yes" if you are asking the best practice question, and "no" if you are asking the contractual obligation question.
 
Ray Stafford said:
I think your letting agent needs to be clearer what he means by the word "should".

There is a big difference between "You should do xyz in order to conform with best practice" and "You should do xyz because you are contractually obliged to".

I suspect that in the case that you raise, the answer is "yes" if you are asking the best practice question, and "no" if you are asking the contractual obligation question.
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Are you saying that the improvements offered via eco DO NOT require the installer to fit thermostatic radiator valves Ray? Where would I find evidence that backs that up? I'd like to point the guy in the right direction. :)
 
diamondgas said:
Are you saying that the improvements offered via eco DO NOT require the installer to fit thermostatic radiator valves Ray? Where would I find evidence that backs that up? I'd like to point the guy in the right direction. :)
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No I am not saying that. I am saying that the contract between the installer and the householder/landlord is not the same thing as the requirements or recommendations of building control.

It is possible to satisfy one without satisfying the other.
 
Ray Stafford said:
No I am not saying that. I am saying that the contract between the installer and the householder/landlord is not the same thing as the requirements or recommendations of building control.

It is possible to satisfy one without satisfying the other.
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hmmm interesting! I hear what you're saying, my 'but' is though; the landlord/agent who was a major party to having the tenants get in touch with the eco scheme seems to believe that there should have been trv's fitted. Also wouldn't the installer be contravening building regs if they didn't fit trv's and would therefore be recommending that they be fitted?

I reckon the installers are banging these jobs off as quick as they can or even worse the company winning the installation are then hiring installers to do the work as quickly as they can, paying them the minimum and fleecing those who are paying for the scheme!!

That aside though, is it a have to do to pass the necessary installation requirements of the eco deal?
 
jefaz said:
how much is that going to add in a heating system install? People can barely afford it now
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Have you never quoted to fit TRV's on boiler change? I thought that its been building regs for ages? Anyhoo's ... that doesn't help with my question regards eco!!
 
Section 1.7 of the design guide still states that I a component is replaced, it even gives the example of a boiler, that only that component has to comply and there is no obligation to upgrade rest of the system.
 
diamondgas said:
Have you never quoted to fit TRV's on boiler change? I thought that its been building regs for ages? Anyhoo's ... that doesn't help with my question regards eco!!
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Of course but you didn't HAVE to install them so it's was an optional extra expense!!
 
I thought it was a legal requirement bought in several years ago, and even had Gassafe check that I had installed them on on an inspection
 
jefaz said:
how much is that going to add in a heating system install? People can barely afford it now
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So you just will not comply with any Laws that add costs to any of the job you do then ??
Do you clean the system, add inhibitor, complete the commissioning, register the new boiler with GSR etc etc?? all add cost to the job, I am sure if you don't you could do a really cheap job that more could afford but who would benefit. ?
 
chris watkins said:
So you just will not comply with any Laws that add costs to any of the job you do then ??
Do you clean the system, add inhibitor, complete the commissioning, register the new boiler with GSR etc etc?? all add cost to the job, I am sure if you don't you could do a really cheap job that more could afford but who would benefit. ?
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Hang on....who said I wasn't going to do it? Where in that statement did I say I will not comply,you have made a number if assumptions there my friend. I was just making a comment that people who can now 'just afford' a boiler won't be able to then as the extra costs incurred in materials plus labour.
 
But if something is required, it is required, who are you to decide what people can & can't afford. Suggesting that these things are optional extras just encourages those who want to pay the bare minimum to ignore the Laws of the land, at the expense of those who are trying to do the right thing. As has have said a number of times on here, it is very easy to race to the bottom!!

The case, after all, for installing TRV's / room stats etc with with any boiler change is very strong, it not only costs but saves money & carbon.
(not so much for Landlords though, who are the ones for some reason lest keen to upgrade IMHO)
 
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I'm not deciding!! You're not getting what I am saying. If they need done they need done. What I am saying is in these economic times people struggle to pay for the bare essentials as it stands. Adding more that you have to fit will increase the burden on low income families who have to fork out extra to comply with the new regs. Why would you assume I was going to flout the regs? I keep strictly within the regs every singe time I'm at work.
And at the moment are TRVS not optional?
 
You can get cheaply trvs for about £6. A lock shield is about £2 so a 7 rad system is only going to cost and extra £24 for trvs, there's not really an excuse and the expense will be saved within a year anyway.
 
Nostrum said:
You can get cheaply trvs for about £6. A lock shield is about £2 so a 7 rad system is only going to cost and extra £24 for trvs, there's not really an excuse and the expense will be saved within a year anyway.
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Check your maths ;)
 
6 x £4 = £24 by my reckoning, no trv on the room with a room stat. :whatchutalkingabout
 
Hehe!! Anyway I fear everyone has got me wrong here. I'm Not saying a it's a bad thing or anything like that. I'm just saying what excuses will be used. I won't be fitting boilers anyway so it matters not to me!! :)
 
Part L table 2.jpgI think you are right jefaz, there is miss understanding on both sides, always a problem when typing sort replays but here is an extract from the current compliance guide for Part L if you have a look it is clear the existing systems must be upgraded to the same level as a new system i.e. TRV's on all rads except reference room (one with thermostat fitted) & bathrooms (& I still fit em in baths / showers)
Just to move it on somewhat it is also a requirement that the primaries between the boiler & cylinder are insulated only found that one out a couple of months ago myself.
 
Is this the current or forthcoming version chris? I know they have backtracked on zoning finally but not sure what else has been changed, haven't had a chance to look at it in detail.
 
Nostrum said:
Is this the current or forthcoming version chris? I know they have backtracked on zoning finally but not sure what else has been changed, haven't had a chance to look at it in detail.
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The extract in post 21 is current 2010 (2011) as link http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/domestic_building_compliance_guide_2010.pdf
As you say Nostrum it seems they have back tract on the thorny zoning (gone back to the old if more than 150M2) as of 6th April next year (2014) new pumps get a mention as does insulation of whole primary pipes.

 
I think its a step in the right direction, the zoning makes a lot more sense. Not sure many will be ripping up floors to insulate existing primaries though.
 
Nostrum said:
I think its a step in the right direction, the zoning makes a lot more sense. Not sure many will be ripping up floors to insulate existing primaries though.
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No I agree but would be nice to see it on a new build ?? it has after all been in for a good couple of years.
Just where are the police to enforce these, just so are all on a level playing field, a.
 
Let's concentrate on the big ones first ? Illegal installs, signing off mates work , under gassed no vents and spilling appliances?
 
The big one is the amount of money (our money) being squandered installing things that are not up to standards in spec or installation and don't get me started on landlords getting their houses done up for free.
 
tamz said:
The big one is the amount of money (our money) being squandered installing things that are not up to standards in spec or installation and don't get me started on landlords getting their houses done up for free.
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But it's a good thing. Government helping big businesses .... Again. Isn't ray secretary or state for energy?
 
Ermintrude said:
Let's concentrate on the big ones first ? Illegal installs, signing off mates work , under gassed no vents and spilling appliances?
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Can't we do both ? it is just with mine (new builds) the policeman is already on site it is just he doesn't know what he is looking at ? With yours Ermi, he has got to get of his metaphorical bum & go out & investigate them!!
Always happened Tamz, don't make it easer to bare, sometimes it just has to come down to ones own moral compass.
 
In that part L extract it says 'recommended minimum standards' so is it a recommendation or is that the law? Open to interpretation that one.
 
Reltub said:
In that part L extract it says 'recommended minimum standards' so is it a recommendation or is that the law? Open to interpretation that one.
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No, it is normally taken as the Minimum Required (i.e. TRV's), with modern controls there are lots of ways to achieve the same end & it does not want to say the TRVs must be used which would preclude the use or other possible better ways.
 
I'm finding a lot of elderly customers don't like or understand TRVs so don't want them fitted. Even when you explain to them they either have them full up or turned off. Seems a bit pointless spending a tenner a rad on valves if they are only going to get used as on off valves.

Having said that I always recommend they are fitted but put the price as an extra to make sure my price can be compared with those who don't bother and give customers the option.
 
Great debate all, thanks for all the replies :)

Like you Tamz I think it's diabolical that Landlords get this work done free, especially those who let their properties go to ruin as long as they're getting the money from the government (Our Taxes)!

As Chris has posted ... It is a Building regulation to fit TRV's. That is legal stuff so those who don't flaunt the law IMO! Local authorities are charged with upholding this law alas and that's where it all goes to pot! Who's ever reported anyone for not fitting TRV's I wonder? And what would the local authority do with that?

From what I have read so far though am I right in saying that the installers installing replacement boilers under the ECO scheme should be installing TRV's or an equivalent individual room temp control, otherwise they'd be contravening building regulations yeh?
 
The way i see it is they are 'recommended' standards and that on an upgrade you dont have to.

Would be easier if the document was clearer to reduce mis-interpretation.

I personally always fit them.
 
The actual building regulations state:

reasonable provision shall be made for the conservation of fuel and power in buildings by;

providing fixed buildings services which-

(i) are energy efficient
(ii) have effective controls.....

so how you go about achieving this is open to interpretation but the approved doc L and the domestic building services compliance guide both give examples of ways of achieving this with TRVs.

So, without trvs can you say that the building has effective controls, is energy efficient and has adequate provision for conserving heat?

But who's checking? It's actually the property owner who would be responsible for ensuring it complies with the building regs, but they will wave your self certified building regulation certificate you supplied them through gas safe or whatever and who knows what the outcome would be, hypothetically speaking of course as it's never going to happen.
 
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