Eco deal question

[diamondgas]

Hi folks,

I was asked by a Letting Agent whether installation done through Eco should have TRV's fitted? I pointed him towards Par L of the building regs regards new and replacement boilers that states that they do need to be fitted. I was wondering though what your thoughts are and whether these are a requirement?

I know that it's a contentious issue and that there's a get out clause regards whether the customer wants it or not! However through the Eco deal who wouldn't say yes? My question is, are trv's suppose to be fitted by those undertaking boiler replacements through ECO?

This should be interesting

Cheers!

 

[chris watkins]

In that part L extract it says 'recommended minimum standards' so is it a recommendation or is that the law? Open to interpretation that one.

No, it is normally taken as the Minimum Required (i.e. TRV's), with modern controls there are lots of ways to achieve the same end & it does not want to say the TRVs must be used which would preclude the use or other possible better ways.

 

[Mike Jackson]

I'm finding a lot of elderly customers don't like or understand TRVs so don't want them fitted. Even when you explain to them they either have them full up or turned off. Seems a bit pointless spending a tenner a rad on valves if they are only going to get used as on off valves.

Having said that I always recommend they are fitted but put the price as an extra to make sure my price can be compared with those who don't bother and give customers the option.

 

[diamondgas]

Great debate all, thanks for all the replies

Like you Tamz I think it's diabolical that Landlords get this work done free, especially those who let their properties go to ruin as long as they're getting the money from the government (Our Taxes)!

As Chris has posted ... It is a Building regulation to fit TRV's. That is legal stuff so those who don't flaunt the law IMO! Local authorities are charged with upholding this law alas and that's where it all goes to pot! Who's ever reported anyone for not fitting TRV's I wonder? And what would the local authority do with that?

From what I have read so far though am I right in saying that the installers installing replacement boilers under the ECO scheme should be installing TRV's or an equivalent individual room temp control, otherwise they'd be contravening building regulations yeh?

 

[Reltub]

The way i see it is they are 'recommended' standards and that on an upgrade you dont have to.

Would be easier if the document was clearer to reduce mis-interpretation.

I personally always fit them.

 

[Nostrum]

The actual building regulations state:

reasonable provision shall be made for the conservation of fuel and power in buildings by;

providing fixed buildings services which-

(i) are energy efficient
(ii) have effective controls.....

so how you go about achieving this is open to interpretation but the approved doc L and the domestic building services compliance guide both give examples of ways of achieving this with TRVs.

So, without trvs can you say that the building has effective controls, is energy efficient and has adequate provision for conserving heat?

But who's checking? It's actually the property owner who would be responsible for ensuring it complies with the building regs, but they will wave your self certified building regulation certificate you supplied them through gas safe or whatever and who knows what the outcome would be, hypothetically speaking of course as it's never going to happen.

 

[diamondgas]

But who's checking? It's actually the property owner who would be responsible for ensuring it complies with the building regs, but they will wave your self certified building regulation certificate you supplied them through gas safe or whatever and who knows what the outcome would be, hypothetically speaking of course as it's never going to happen.

And then what "property owner" would know that these regulations existed, they'd rely on the installer to let them know what's best for them! Alas, in my experience, the vast majority of installers opt to offer the customer what's best for 'them'!!b ................... Most profit at least expense in time and money!

 

[Nostrum]

Yeah exactly.

This is where the governing bodies need to pull their fingers out across the board. Customers don't know they should receive a certificate for gas, oil, water, windows or whatever so don't appreciate all of the different accreditation bodies worth.

What makes it worse is their are indemnity insurance policies available that offer a get it clause for having a certificate of compliance when you sell the house. Where's the incentive to get a job done properly ( at a slight extra expense) by a reputable firm if you can just buy your way out of it all if/when it bites you in the arse?

 

[diamondgas]

My original question regarding eco though? I'm guessing there must be a governing body that's allowing approved companies to upgrade old appliances and benefit from the mony they're providing.. I wonder if this is just lip service for the government to prove they're conforming to 'green' requirements and doesn't realy give a toss to regulations! So those getting the cash are then cracking the whip and getting sub contractors to cut corners? *sigh*

 

[Ermintrude]

My original question regarding eco though? I'm guessing there must be a governing body that's allowing approved companies to upgrade old appliances and benefit from the mony they're providing.. I wonder if this is just lip service for the government to prove they're conforming to 'green' requirements and doesn't realy give a toss to regulations! So those getting the cash are then cracking the whip and getting sub contractors to cut corners? *sigh*

Pas2030 is the standard qualification me thinks and it contains only guidelines . Interlock is required to be provided and that's it?

 

[Nostrum]

My experience of eco work is that it should comply with part L and everything else.

You could find out who the main contractor is and complain to the certification body and the funding provider. The tenant should have all the paperwork with the contact details on.

 

[Nostrum]

Pas2030 is the standard qualification me thinks and it contains only guidelines . Interlock is required to be provided and that's it?

No that's not correct mate, PAS2030 is the standard and it refers to all the relevant standards and requirements. Whether or not the installers stick to the standard is another story (same with anything else) but if they are not then they are not complying with PAS2030. Part of the handover includes a declaration to confirm it has been installed to PAS2030, so yet again someone is falsely claiming to have done so.

the only way to approach is to contact the provider (who pays the installer once the paperwork has been received) or the certification body who issued the installation company their PAS2030. to be honest the provider might not give a toss as they are earning money of the whole thing as well.

 

[Nostrum]

Here is an extract from PAS2030 for gas condensing boilers

 

[diamondgas]

My experience of eco work is that it should comply with part L and everything else.

You could find out who the main contractor is and complain to the certification body and the funding provider. The tenant should have all the paperwork with the contact details on.

I'm not the one to complain to be honest but I know the letting agent will if they are aware that they're not getting "all they deserve" free of charge!! *sigh* that pizzes me off but , hey-hum! I guess they still have a 'right', and if it were my mum I'd be fighting for all they deserve under what the rules are! I've emailed my local authority to hopefuly I'll get some direction....:lol:

Its interesting to see here and in other posts how much knowledge and feeling differ on what is a regulation, far as i can tell!

 

[Ermintrude]

But reading the guide its only recommended to have trvs? And you can still comply with part L with just a wireless programmable stat?

90's 3 bed semi open plan ground floor inc open stair case, all heat ends up at top of stairs trvs ain't going to keep gf warm and bedrooms at 19? Needs heat pump or a door on stairs? That would conserve more energy and better comply IMHO?

 

[diamondgas]

Here is an extract from PAS2030 for gas condensing boilers

That's the stuff I like to see they must conform to building regulations!

NOT 'my own pocket' regulations ..

However I believe the latter prevail and the custard looses out to greed!!

 

[diamondgas]

TRV's are individual room control. and if .....BIG IF!!! the system is designed and balanced correctly then individual control allows the end user to decide whether they want their room colder than regulations state they should be... or at least be able to control the temp in any other circumstance yeh?

 

[Nostrum]

But reading the guide its only recommended to have trvs? And you can still comply with part L with just a wireless programmable stat?

90's 3 bed semi open plan ground floor inc open stair case, all heat ends up at top of stairs trvs ain't going to keep gf warm and bedrooms at 19? Needs heat pump or a door on stairs? That would conserve more energy and better comply IMHO?

Trvs are a recommended way of complying with the requirements set out in the building regulations.

you could argue that the system you propose above is also a way to comply (ie is energy efficient and has effective control)

I think you would struggle to argue that a system with no TRVs has effective control.

part L is guidance, that said isn't it a lot easier to follow the guidance to ensure compliance, unless you have an alternative that exceeds the performance of a TRVs.

This is why it is open ended, not to be able to avoid fitting them, but to allow superior products to be used in place of them. (My understanding of it anyway)

 

[Nostrum]

TRV's are individual room control. and if .....BIG IF!!! the system is designed and balanced correctly then individual control allows the end user to decide whether they want their room colder than regulations state they should be... or at least be able to control the temp in any other circumstance yeh?

TRVs are a way to conserve energy by turning the radiator off when not required (ie the room is hot enough as defined by the end user) less water heated, less energy used.

The temperature of the room as far as I'm aware is not a requirement in the building regulations, but part L and the domestic building services compliance guide offer guidance on what is a reasonable temperature for comfort and energy conservation. Otherwise you'd have to be able to lock the trv at that temperature like you do a lock shield valve once the correct dT was achieved. (Try telling that to the 90 year old who likes it at 26+)

But comfort doesn't really come into it from a regulatory point of view, it's all about savings the polar bears.

 

[Ermintrude]

The optimum is individual zone or room interlock. I don't like trvs! They are usually always on 5 and windows open in bedrooms but April 2014 it's trv or highway!

 

[diamondgas]

If you were/are a landlord and privy to building regulations, you have a tenant on income support and acceptable for an upgrade on the ECO deal, would you complain if the installer did not fit TRV's?

Now there's a question to you who are now aware of regulations! ........................ Regardless of what you would do! Would you push for TRV's given the circumstances?

Just moving on some... I hope

 

[Nostrum]

The optimum is individual zone or room interlock. I don't like trvs! They are usually always on 5 and windows open in bedrooms but April 2014 it's trv or highway!

what are you referring to there ermi?

 

[Nostrum]

If you were/are a landlord and privy to building regulations, you have a tenant on income support and acceptable for an upgrade on the ECO deal, would you complain if the installer did not fit TRV's?

Now there's a question to you who are now aware of regulations! ........................ Regardless of what you would do! Would you push for TRV's given the circumstances?

Just moving on some... I hope

Yes! But many will be happy just to get what they have. It just annoys me that companies out there will get away with as little as possible to make a few extra quid.

if you won £10 million on the lottery, would you happy with 7 million and let the person who sold you the ticket keep 3, or if you knew it was 10 million would you want all of what you are entitled too? After all your still £7 million better off than you were?

 

[Ermintrude]

what are you referring to there ermi?

Nothing sorry!

 

[Worcester]

Having written contracts and specifications for many years, 'must', 'should' and 'may' have defined meanings.

The LEGAL requirements come from Statutory Instruments - i.e the Building Regulations, the Compliance Guide is just that, a guide to how you might choose to comply with the regulations. You don't have to follow that guide so long as you comply with the regulations - I regularly have interesting discussion with Building Control Sometimes it is easier to follow the guide, as you just point to it and put your hands up

TRV's are a cheap cop out to a properly designed and balanced system with multiple zones. I would always choose multiple zone programming over TRV's - some of the biomass boilers that we fit, can, as standard fully manage and control 8 zones.. There again, none of our customers live in 3 bed semis (And you can't fit TRV's to UFH ...)

At this moment in time, there is no LEGAL requirement to install TRV's on a planned or emergency gas boiler replacement, there IS a requirement to "have effective controls"

The current guidance recommends that this can be met in the case of a boiler replacement for Gas Fired Wet Central Heating systems by fitting a boiler interlock, i.e.

System controls should be wired so that when there is no demand for space heating or hot water, the boiler and pump are switched off

So as with most bodies, either certifying or regulatory - they aren't always correct.

 

[Worcester]

but April 2014 it's trv or highway!

No it's not!

Each space heating circuit should be provided with:
i. independent time control and
either
ii.
a room thermostat or programmable room thermostat located in a reference room served by the heating circuit, together with individual radiator controls such as thermostatic radiator valves (TRVs) on all radiators outside the reference rooms;
or
iii.
individual networked radiator controls in each room on the circuit

the OR option means that you can use a control other than a TRV

of course that (TRV's) may be the EASIEST (cheapest?) way to do it.

Or make each room individually controlled (just like UFH...)

 

[Ermintrude]

No it's not!




the OR option means that you can use a control other than a TRV

of course that (TRV's) may be the EASIEST (cheapest?) way to do it.

Or make each room individually controlled (just like UFH...)

Individual rooms is how I roll! Don't like using ufh manifolds without blending valve and pump ; though, prefer 2 ports. But most jobs arnt new fixes but upgrades and or planned replacements .
Interested in bio mass but not much call for it in city. Want to fit a gasification boiler.

 

[Worcester]

Put in a little 20kW biomass pellet boiler today (well put it where it's going to go) only weighed 368kg, Came with full dismantling instructions so that we could lift it off the pallet

inexpensive log gassification boilers: Orlan wood gasification boiler

 

[diamondgas]

An update ... I emailed our Local Authority Building Control for their take on the requirements.... For those of you that mentioned it being a recommendation and not a MUST then I bow to your understanding ... Here's their reply :-

In response to your e-mail enquiry I would make the following comment:

When installing a new or replacement gas boiler Building Regulations require that the work follows the guidance within Section 2 of the ‘Domestic Building Services Compliance Guide (2010 Edition).

Where new radiators are installed (e.g. extensions) or where existing radiators are replaced then thermostatic radiator valves (TRVs) MUST be fitted as required by Table 2, 5.0 – Temperature control of space heating in the Domestic Building Services Guide. However where the existing radiators are retained then the guide only RECOMMENDS that TRVs be fitted as good practice since the heating system would be drained when the old boiler is replaced.


I hope this has answered your query.

Regards

James Symington
Building Control Surveyor
Building Control Section
Public Safety and Regulation
Newcastle City Council

 

[Reltub]

An update ... I emailed our Local Authority Building Control for their take on the requirements.... For those of you that mentioned it being a recommendation and not a MUST then I bow to your understanding ... Here's their reply :-

Yay finally clarification!

I thought just as much.

 

[doitmyself]

The LEGAL requirements come from Statutory Instruments - i.e the Building Regulations, the Compliance Guide is just that, a guide to how you might choose to comply with the regulations. You don't have to follow that guide so long as you comply with the regulations - I regularly have interesting discussion with Building Control Sometimes it is easier to follow the guide, as you just point to it and put your hands up

True, but the Building Regs and Approved Docs often talk in generalisations.

The latest version of the Compliance Guide says:

if you follow the relevant guidance in an Approved Document, and in any document referred to in the Approved Document (such as this guide) which provides additional information to help you follow that guidance, there is a legal presumption that you have complied with the Building Regulations.

But it then contradicts itself by saying:

However, in each case it is for the building control body (local authority or approved inspector) to decide whether work complies with the requirements of the Building Regulations.

So you could get the situation where the system designer has followed all the recommendations BR/AD/Compliance Guide, including the "extras", and some jobsworth in BC says that it's not good enough as it doesn't comply with his interpretation of the Building Regs/Approved Doc.

Humpty Dumpty would have had a field day!