Todays fun

[kyle]

Hi all,
Just wondered how many people knew about performing an 'ambient air assessment'.
I came across this with my engineer today, never heard anything about this in college.
We had readings of between 80 and 150ppm every min, appliance was ID.

 

[kyle]

Sure, but he wouldn't have analysed it had the clearances from the window been ok.
The fact that there was not the required distance forced him into following procedure as outlined in GIUSP and BS7967.
Had he not followed procedure the boiler would as we speak be pumping 150+ppm outside AND when the window was opened , into the kitchen.

 

[Toddyplumb]

Yes I understand that , the point I was trying to make was that even with correct burner pressures etc this boiler was giving dangerous levels of CO. If the clearances had been OK it would /could have been signed off as OK when it is clearly faulty.
The pevious post went along the lines of that the FGA on an old appliance was a waste of time

 

[GrahamM]

Sure, but he wouldn't have analysed it had the clearances from the window been ok.
The fact that there was not the required distance forced him into following procedure as outlined in GIUSP and BS7967.
Had he not followed procedure the boiler would as we speak be pumping 150+ppm outside AND when the window was opened , into the kitchen.

You are not forced into doing an ambient air assessment on a gas safety check. It is not part of the normal procedure. Wither a FGA check is required, is at your discretion unless it states it has to be done in MI's.

Many factors like weather conditions and surrounding CO from other sources can give an unusually high indication of combustion gasses entering the room, but you would not normally go as far as doing a so called 'ambient air assessment unless there was some indication of gaseous odours.

 

[kyle]

I'm past caring now, I keep looking at standards for distance,=this says distance too short=this leads me to GIUSP ( page 53, 8.4 )=this says exactly what I said ealier, it does mention as you say about weather conditions etc etc which were taken into consideration.
I just don't get this,,,,,as far as I can tell, the engineer cut off an appliance that was producing quantities of CO above the level allowed, he followed procedure.
There was no other migration of CO. There were no other appliances.
As for not being forced to complete an air assessment on a gas safety check, why does it state it in the GIUSP..I'm totally lost here. Are we allowed to disregard this guidance when this situation occurs.
I sometimes feel like chucking this and getting a job at tesco's.

 

[GrahamM]

Not saying what your engineer done was wrong, it is just not normal procedure and is over and above what is required of a safety check. We must draw a line somewhere otherwise you will end up spending upwards of an hour for safety check. Again, I am not saying there is any time limit on making sure an appliance is safe, but there has to be an end point.

Our rule book is the GSIUR, which we must abide by to the letter. Know this inside out. The GIUSP is just a guide line for engineers. It does not mean you have to have it open at page 1 for every job.

 

[kyle]

Hi, Thx for info
I was just wondering what your course of action would have been ; everthing ok then you check terminal position and discover it is only 310mm away, you would have.........

 

[GrahamM]

Hi, Thx for info
I was just wondering what your course of action would have been ; everthing ok then you check terminal position and discover it is only 310mm away, you would have.........

If all other checks were ok (BP, GR, Flame Pic, FGA, etc.), boiler in reasonable nick and the flue position was 90mm out from what is stated in MI's/regs. then this would be classified as NCS.

If there are no gaseous odours and no complaints of this up till now, you have no reason to suspect that because the flue is 90mm closer to window than it should be, it may be allowing passage of POC's into room. Job done.

My mother's fan flued combi is fitted to standard, just over 300mm to side of door but every now and again dependant on the conditions you get a waft of POC'c coming in door. It will happen on occasion to any flue that is within vicinity of door/window.
As long as it is not constantly pumping POC's directly inside.

 

[amy]

But isn't it a good job your engineer did follow the procedure he did, otherwise 150ppm of CO entering a room would be very bad indeed.
And there you have your reason for following the advice in the giusp. Take no notice of me, I'm learning too.

 

[GrahamM]

Just another quick point. This ambient test is subjective and is only an indication. I cannot recall any training on the specifics of this during my CPA.
Where were these readings taken from? The centre of room? Or, directly opposite the window that is 300mm or so from the flue?

 

[kirkgas]

This is covered in training!! HA. I wish you worked in the south east kirk and not scotland. This was briefly mentioned in the training and does it come up in the exams? Er no.

What a crock of ****. It actually makes me angry.

my point was, yes some guys say it is rubbish, but one of the few things that get mentioned that are worth hearing has obviously went right over this guys head, so what you seem to be saying is that although this guy has CPA1 he is incompetant, if so i agree with you,
what is the answer for guys like this? a full weeks training to ensure he isnt risking himself or anyone else, oh yes i can see him agreeing to a £600 bill to get a "better" CPA1 ticket

 

[kyle]

Am I correct in thinking you are saying the engineer I am accompanying is incompetant?
Not sure how you come to this conclusion when he has followed the procedure to the letter, furthermore if he had not done so people may have suffered serious injury or death. This guy quotes heaps of BS ( thats British Standards not Bull **** ) to a bunch of engineers where he works and is regarded as a good engineer. If I am to believe he is incompetant then god help me.

The readings were taken from centre of the room grahamM, as BS7967.

I,m just not interested anymore, theres that much aggression and slagging off that iv'e had it with this forum, I came on here to equip myself with more knowledge and gain a better understanding of the subject, all I end up with is me being more confused than before I posted.

 

[kirkgas]

1st things 1st nobody is having a go at you, you posted a Q and different people have given their opinion, ok its not ideal that we all have different opinions, ie it should be black & white for everything but it isnt, coming on here will enhance your skill and knowledge, it does for me anyway, and i think im right in saying i have been doing gas 7 plumbing longer than you, sometimes when we have diff opinions we get a bit heated but at least it proves we care about what we do, and TBH it is usually just good banter between the troops, i suppose i must be one of the ones who said your guy was incompetant, what i meant was he is risking both you and him by being in a room with higher than safe levels, ok he was reentering the room to take the reading, but if above 30ppm the procedure is to abandon ship, so how many times did he reenter the room to see the reading climbing to 150ppm, and how dangerous is it to subject himself to such levels, i dont know the answer to that before you ask, but that means i would not have put you or i in that position, as soon as i saw a reading of 31ppm you and i would have been out

 

[yo1]

Was the co reading due too a poorly maintained appliance or just fumes entering through the window, as i would of thought the high readings are due to incomplete combustion and a problem with the appliance and also fumes entering the room through the window

 

[Blackcatgas]

Was the co reading due too a poorly maintained appliance or just fumes entering through the window, as i would of thought the high readings are due to incomplete combustion and a problem with the appliance and also fumes entering the room through the window

Very very good point, was there soot above the flue? and also id be interested if you still got the same readings if the flue was 400mm away from the window, I cant see that 90mm would "make all the difference"?

 

[dontknowitall]

Yeah I know about it, but have never done one. I think my Kane 455 will do one. I'm frankly fed up with the constant stream of new legislation, why can't we just be allowed to do our job?

Quite agree! I've never been told to do one but have done so about three times in the last few months as I was unsure of boiler readings and wanted to eliminate the surrounding air as a possible problem.

As you say, why can't we just get on with our job and use some common sense instead of subjecting everything to law? Answer: it's to cover everyone else's backsides.

I recently asked local building control for some help and they weren't interested in taking the responsibility. They told me I'm competent so I should know. This was why I'd phoned in the first place - I just wanted to be sure I was doing the right thing for the locality and my customer!