Todays fun

[kyle]

Hi all,
Just wondered how many people knew about performing an 'ambient air assessment'.
I came across this with my engineer today, never heard anything about this in college.
We had readings of between 80 and 150ppm every min, appliance was ID.

 

[GrahamM]

More info please.
What appliance, what was the scenario?
How were his readings taken and what equipment was he using?

I thought you had to have a CMDDA1 qualification and equipment to be qualified to give a judgement on surrounding air quality. A FGA will give an indication that this may be required.

 

[Dannypipe]

Yeah I know about it, but have never done one. I think my Kane 455 will do one. I'm frankly fed up with the constant stream of new legislation, why can't we just be allowed to do our job?

 

[kyle]

Hi,
Well it was a landlords check, Glow-worm fuelsaver 30b mk 2 in kitchen. This was natural draught room sealed and was 310 mm away from an openable window ( to the sde ), should have been a minimum of 400mm from side. Section 8.4 in the GIUSP outlines the requirements. My engineer wasn't entirely sure so checked with someone who knew the procedure. Basically he had to open the window, operate the boiler at full rate ( 10.99kw) and take readings of CO every minute for a total of 15 minutes. The maximum allowable CO reading should be 10ppm. We had readings from 80 to 150ppm. This was classed as ID. He stuck the probe in the natural draught terminal just out of curiosity and the analyser ( one click ) displayed HIGH for the next 3 hours and wouldn't turn off..its working ok now ( Think the ratio reading was .0456 just before it packed in).
So thats it really, I take it that its not a common occurance?

 

[Dannypipe]

No it's not common practise. Sounds like a pain in the backside.

 

[CMairiD]

I thought you had to have a CMDDA1 qualification and equipment to be qualified to give a judgement on surrounding air quality. A FGA will give an indication that this may be required.

Last I heard, they had developed the CMDDA1 assessment but it hadn't gone through UKAS accreditation yet.

Frankly, I think it's a load of tosh. CMDDA1 should be a part of CPA1. Just feels like another excuse to take money out of our pockets.

 

[CMairiD]

Basically he had to open the window, operate the boiler at full rate ( 10.99kw) and take readings of CO every minute for a total of 15 minutes. The maximum allowable CO reading should be 10ppm. We had readings from 80 to 150ppm. This was classed as ID.

From what I've read in BS7967 and some training during an ambient air testing toolbox talk, you need turn off all fuel burning appliances and ventilate until inside CO level reaches that of outside. Then close all doors, windows and ventilation (appliances still off) and check that there is no build up of CO during 15 minute period. If no CO, carry on with testing one appliance at a time. If the CO levels ever reach above 30ppm (except cookers), then you need to terminate the test immediately, ventilate and evacuate until CO reaches a safe level.

 

[kirkgas]

From what I've read in BS7967 and some training during an ambient air testing toolbox talk, you need turn off all fuel burning appliances and ventilate until inside CO level reaches that of outside. Then close all doors, windows and ventilation (appliances still off) and check that there is no build up of CO during 15 minute period. If no CO, carry on with testing one appliance at a time. If the CO levels ever reach above 30ppm (except cookers), then you need to terminate the test immediately, ventilate and evacuate until CO reaches a safe level.

exactly the correct procedure, anyone who subjects themselves to readings of 150ppm is mental, I know people slag CPA1 but this is covered in the training, prob the only interesting bit TBH

 

[Dannypipe]

This is covered in training!! HA. I wish you worked in the south east kirk and not scotland. This was briefly mentioned in the training and does it come up in the exams? Er no.

What a crock of ****. It actually makes me angry.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

what a load of rubbish tell your "engineer" to have a re think and be a proper engineer the ponce

 

[Dannypipe]

Love it Gas Man....my view entirely.

 

[Toddyplumb]

So then : the terminal was too close 2 the window : NCS , AR or ID ?
GAS rate was ? Burner pressure was ?
Do you need 2 go futher ?
8ppm ................

Kane 455 can do up to 30 min test and give /print result for every minute

Kyle 2 days 2 dodgy jobs , where r u at ?

 

[Toddyplumb]

Gas man I am reporting u 2 the moderator 4 saying arse ! WE cant have ball cocks then we cant say Bottom !

 

[kyle]

Firstly, My engineer decided to tell this particular source of work ( letting agent ) that he no longer wanted any more work from him. All he got from this agent was tight fisted landlord properties.
As for the procedure, this was followed as per BS7967, I did say 'basically' in orig post.
As for subjecting ourselves to levels of CO, Once the engineer hit 80 during the first minute we both left the room, analyser still working on its own, nipped in to check the reading after second minute etc etc. The burner pressure etc were obviously checked and heat exchanger inspected.
The engineer expressed his concerns for the ageing appliance (there were 3 kids at the address) and wanted no part in an old, tin can of a boiler that was obviously in need of replacement. He had no hesitation in ID the appliance straightaway, cut n capped, labelled, paperwork etc etc.....He wanted no part in trying to revive this particular appliance.

 

[Toddyplumb]

In previous posts , it has been said that on older appliances after burner , pressure and rating there is no need to use FGA .
You do get some LL like that Kyle

 

[kyle]

Sure, but he wouldn't have analysed it had the clearances from the window been ok.
The fact that there was not the required distance forced him into following procedure as outlined in GIUSP and BS7967.
Had he not followed procedure the boiler would as we speak be pumping 150+ppm outside AND when the window was opened , into the kitchen.

 

[Toddyplumb]

Yes I understand that , the point I was trying to make was that even with correct burner pressures etc this boiler was giving dangerous levels of CO. If the clearances had been OK it would /could have been signed off as OK when it is clearly faulty.
The pevious post went along the lines of that the FGA on an old appliance was a waste of time

 

[GrahamM]

Sure, but he wouldn't have analysed it had the clearances from the window been ok.
The fact that there was not the required distance forced him into following procedure as outlined in GIUSP and BS7967.
Had he not followed procedure the boiler would as we speak be pumping 150+ppm outside AND when the window was opened , into the kitchen.

You are not forced into doing an ambient air assessment on a gas safety check. It is not part of the normal procedure. Wither a FGA check is required, is at your discretion unless it states it has to be done in MI's.

Many factors like weather conditions and surrounding CO from other sources can give an unusually high indication of combustion gasses entering the room, but you would not normally go as far as doing a so called 'ambient air assessment unless there was some indication of gaseous odours.

 

[kyle]

I'm past caring now, I keep looking at standards for distance,=this says distance too short=this leads me to GIUSP ( page 53, 8.4 )=this says exactly what I said ealier, it does mention as you say about weather conditions etc etc which were taken into consideration.
I just don't get this,,,,,as far as I can tell, the engineer cut off an appliance that was producing quantities of CO above the level allowed, he followed procedure.
There was no other migration of CO. There were no other appliances.
As for not being forced to complete an air assessment on a gas safety check, why does it state it in the GIUSP..I'm totally lost here. Are we allowed to disregard this guidance when this situation occurs.
I sometimes feel like chucking this and getting a job at tesco's.

 

[GrahamM]

Not saying what your engineer done was wrong, it is just not normal procedure and is over and above what is required of a safety check. We must draw a line somewhere otherwise you will end up spending upwards of an hour for safety check. Again, I am not saying there is any time limit on making sure an appliance is safe, but there has to be an end point.

Our rule book is the GSIUR, which we must abide by to the letter. Know this inside out. The GIUSP is just a guide line for engineers. It does not mean you have to have it open at page 1 for every job.

 

[kyle]

Hi, Thx for info
I was just wondering what your course of action would have been ; everthing ok then you check terminal position and discover it is only 310mm away, you would have.........

 

[GrahamM]

Hi, Thx for info
I was just wondering what your course of action would have been ; everthing ok then you check terminal position and discover it is only 310mm away, you would have.........

If all other checks were ok (BP, GR, Flame Pic, FGA, etc.), boiler in reasonable nick and the flue position was 90mm out from what is stated in MI's/regs. then this would be classified as NCS.

If there are no gaseous odours and no complaints of this up till now, you have no reason to suspect that because the flue is 90mm closer to window than it should be, it may be allowing passage of POC's into room. Job done.

My mother's fan flued combi is fitted to standard, just over 300mm to side of door but every now and again dependant on the conditions you get a waft of POC'c coming in door. It will happen on occasion to any flue that is within vicinity of door/window.
As long as it is not constantly pumping POC's directly inside.

 

[amy]

But isn't it a good job your engineer did follow the procedure he did, otherwise 150ppm of CO entering a room would be very bad indeed.
And there you have your reason for following the advice in the giusp. Take no notice of me, I'm learning too.

 

[GrahamM]

Just another quick point. This ambient test is subjective and is only an indication. I cannot recall any training on the specifics of this during my CPA.
Where were these readings taken from? The centre of room? Or, directly opposite the window that is 300mm or so from the flue?

 

[kirkgas]

This is covered in training!! HA. I wish you worked in the south east kirk and not scotland. This was briefly mentioned in the training and does it come up in the exams? Er no.

What a crock of ****. It actually makes me angry.

my point was, yes some guys say it is rubbish, but one of the few things that get mentioned that are worth hearing has obviously went right over this guys head, so what you seem to be saying is that although this guy has CPA1 he is incompetant, if so i agree with you,
what is the answer for guys like this? a full weeks training to ensure he isnt risking himself or anyone else, oh yes i can see him agreeing to a £600 bill to get a "better" CPA1 ticket

 

[kyle]

Am I correct in thinking you are saying the engineer I am accompanying is incompetant?
Not sure how you come to this conclusion when he has followed the procedure to the letter, furthermore if he had not done so people may have suffered serious injury or death. This guy quotes heaps of BS ( thats British Standards not Bull **** ) to a bunch of engineers where he works and is regarded as a good engineer. If I am to believe he is incompetant then god help me.

The readings were taken from centre of the room grahamM, as BS7967.

I,m just not interested anymore, theres that much aggression and slagging off that iv'e had it with this forum, I came on here to equip myself with more knowledge and gain a better understanding of the subject, all I end up with is me being more confused than before I posted.

 

[kirkgas]

1st things 1st nobody is having a go at you, you posted a Q and different people have given their opinion, ok its not ideal that we all have different opinions, ie it should be black & white for everything but it isnt, coming on here will enhance your skill and knowledge, it does for me anyway, and i think im right in saying i have been doing gas 7 plumbing longer than you, sometimes when we have diff opinions we get a bit heated but at least it proves we care about what we do, and TBH it is usually just good banter between the troops, i suppose i must be one of the ones who said your guy was incompetant, what i meant was he is risking both you and him by being in a room with higher than safe levels, ok he was reentering the room to take the reading, but if above 30ppm the procedure is to abandon ship, so how many times did he reenter the room to see the reading climbing to 150ppm, and how dangerous is it to subject himself to such levels, i dont know the answer to that before you ask, but that means i would not have put you or i in that position, as soon as i saw a reading of 31ppm you and i would have been out

 

[yo1]

Was the co reading due too a poorly maintained appliance or just fumes entering through the window, as i would of thought the high readings are due to incomplete combustion and a problem with the appliance and also fumes entering the room through the window

 

[Blackcatgas]

Was the co reading due too a poorly maintained appliance or just fumes entering through the window, as i would of thought the high readings are due to incomplete combustion and a problem with the appliance and also fumes entering the room through the window

Very very good point, was there soot above the flue? and also id be interested if you still got the same readings if the flue was 400mm away from the window, I cant see that 90mm would "make all the difference"?

 

[dontknowitall]

Yeah I know about it, but have never done one. I think my Kane 455 will do one. I'm frankly fed up with the constant stream of new legislation, why can't we just be allowed to do our job?

Quite agree! I've never been told to do one but have done so about three times in the last few months as I was unsure of boiler readings and wanted to eliminate the surrounding air as a possible problem.

As you say, why can't we just get on with our job and use some common sense instead of subjecting everything to law? Answer: it's to cover everyone else's backsides.

I recently asked local building control for some help and they weren't interested in taking the responsibility. They told me I'm competent so I should know. This was why I'd phoned in the first place - I just wanted to be sure I was doing the right thing for the locality and my customer!

 

[oldplumber]

to do a air sample test, I'd prefer to be wearing breathing apparatus that way I'd be alive to do another. why are ops moaning about having to do addtional quals and slagging off the system. Personally if I come across anything over 10ppm Im out of there. Anything approaching 30ppm and everyone out, callout the blue light boys and their ba to turn it all off, not my problem. CO kills, no second chances, just cos your anton can do a 15 minute rom test, doesnt mean yu have to go in there and do it, unless your totally nuts. The best thing the engineer could have done is to have stuck his probe in the flue as he did, proved it was id and turned off the boiler and capped it off, what was the point of putting 2 people at risk in the first place?? by doing a test he didnt need to and probably wasnt trained to do.

I also note some ops saying you only need to do pressure check and gas rate on older boilers, thats ok but why not do a flue analysis if you can and that way youve covered your six and got a print off to prove youve done a decent service and it is all ok? seems stupid not to, omho

 

[stevetheplumber]

my beef is with having to do the fga as a seperate module to boilers it should be incorperated with boilers i assume this was the price of amalamating boilers and water heaters cant have the parasitic training industry struggling like the rest of us
no doubt by next year we will also have to take a seperate module to use footprints no difference there a tool we use to fit a boiler so why not a seperate module

 

[oldplumber]

I would presume that as cpa1 is relatively new, most established rgis would object to taking cpa1 along with say cen1 / boilers just to add to their tickets at an accordingly higher cost. I would hope in a couple of years they would combine the 2 as theyve just done with the ones you mention. mind you its probably as not many of us bother with water heaters any more thatr they have combined the 2

 

[CMairiD]

I can't see them adding CPA1 to CEN1/CENWAT because the FGAs can be used on other appliances. Personally, I'd rather they combine CPA1 and CMDDA1 (the soon to be released atmospheric room testing) modules.

 

[gbgas001]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]This is training for CPA1[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Carrying out a room test for carbon monoxide with a Combustion Analyser. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]General [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]1. Position an open ended sampling probe approximately 2 m above floor level in the centre of the room and at least 1 m away from any suspect appliance installation. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]2. Close all external doors, windows and customer adjustable ventilation. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]3. Record the level of CO over a 15 min period. If the indoor level of CO starts to rise during this period, check for CO migration from other sources. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]4. If there is no rise then proceed to test the appliance. [/FONT]
[/FONT]Room sealed and open flued appliances
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Operate the appliance at full rate until the CO reading stabilizes or begins to fall, whichever occurs first. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Cookers [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Ensure that all permanent ventilation to the space in which the appliance is situated is unobstructed. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Place a saucepan on each of the pan-supports above the two largest hotplate burners and put approximately a litre of water in each and cover with a lid. Use a saucepan with a flat base and a base diameter of between 160 mm and 220 mm. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Place the grill pan in its highest position under the grill. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Open/operate the customer adjustable ventilation in accordance with the cooker manufacturer’s instructions, e.g. window or extractor fan. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Light the grill, oven and the two hotplate burners at their maximum setting. Turn the oven down to gas mark 5 (or mid-range if not calibrated in gas mark numbers). [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Record the CO levels at 1 min intervals. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Turn the hotplate burners down to simmer when the water boils. Turn the grill off after 30 min. [/FONT]
[/FONT]If during the test the CO reading:
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]begins to fall without exceeding 30 ppm, stop the test; the installation and cooker are satisfactory; [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]does not exceed 30 ppm for longer than 20 min and begins to fall and does not exceed 90 ppm at any time, stop the test; the installation and cooker are satisfactory; [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Exceeds 90 ppm at any time, stop the test, ventilate the room, identify the cause, rectify and repeat the test. [/FONT][/FONT]
Flueless water heaters
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Ensure that all permanent ventilation to the space in which the appliance is situated is unobstructed. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Close all customer adjustable ventilation to the space in which the appliance is situated. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Light the appliance and operate it at maximum gas rate for 5 min recording the CO levels at 1 min intervals. [/FONT][/FONT]
Flueless space heaters
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Ensure that all permanent ventilation to the space in which the appliance is situated is unobstructed. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Close all customer adjustable ventilation to the space in which the appliance is situated. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Light the appliance and operate it at maximum gas rate for 30 min recording the CO levels at 1 min intervals. [/FONT][/FONT]


gb-gas
[/FONT][/FONT]