new build plumbing

[adrianfs1]

hi all, been asked to price a job for all the plumbing in a new build 3 bed house, great, not, the builder tells me he has no specific plans for his plumbing needs, no drawings, nothing, how is it going to be possible to give him any kind of price, im thinking this might be a no goer, any ideas.

 

[that bloke.]

what stage is the build at now?

 

[adrianfs1]

building is completely watertight, no stud work carried out yet, all drains done, just a shell really, ground floor screeded, first floor joists in but not boarded, incoming water supply in kitchen area with stop tap fitted. stud work going up next week, he has plans for all rooms but no plans for 1st fix plumbing.

 

[Toddyplumb]

All the new builds we have done never had a first fix plan. Does he know where appliances and sanitary ware are going ?
He gives you that , you first fix , he later moves stuff , you charge for moving etc

 

[adrianfs1]

yes, he has a good idea where all aps are going, ive only ever done one new build complete, but the builder supplied plans for every pipe route along with all dimensions,

 

[tamz]

You don't get house plans with pipe runs on. They usually show boiler and hwc position but sometimes not. If you are lucky you will be able to make out where the stacks are to run and maybe a schematic of the drainage (usually totally useless). You are the plumber. You decide where the pipes go.
The sanitaryware layout is shown but as Toddy said that will probably change so charge accordingly if it does. Always ask before you start if anything is changing. It is easier to do it once than change it.
Read the notes down the right side for anything that concerns your work.

 

[Toddyplumb]

NYorks is not too far away from us , we will come and do it if you want

 

[tamz]

Also most importantly. Take regular stage payments throughout the work. Every builder i ever did work for bumped me for something at some point.

 

[adrianfs1]

do you guys suggest a day rate rather than a fixed price plus contingencies, i think day rate might be suited, oh i dont know, i think ill pay him a visit tomorrow and have a good chat and maybe do some plans of my own, its difficult when there are no internal walls up.cheers guys.

 

[tamz]

Yet to meet a builder who will go with a day rate unless you are cheap as chips. He will be looking for a total cost. If you are supplying get it invoiced as soon as the materials are on site. If it gets nicked or damaged it is your pocket it comes from. Plumbing heating drainage rainwater and leadwork should work out at around 2 weeks work for 2 men spread out over a couple of months on a 3 bed 2 bath.

First fix 2 days
Rainwater 1 day
Internal drainage 1 day
Leadwork 1 day (if it is just valleys, aprons and skews etc)
Finishing 5 days.
You can usually do it a lot quicker than that but it depends how fast and how experienced you are.

It is actually easier to do before the internal walls go up.

 

[Toddyplumb]

That list from Tamz is about spot on and you can ask for payment at each one. Dont underestimate the finishing and how often you can be held up onit by others !

 

[adrianfs1]

thanks tamz, been round this morning, much clarified, i think about 3 weeks 2 men which includes tiling half way up walls in bathroom and en-suite and fitting splashbacks in kitchen, thanks again to all for all advice

 

[so-solar]

Ask for a heating schematic, this will show you the heating layout! surely he has had the heating system system designed?
If they have a fllor plan, which they will need for the stud work layout then this will show the bathroom/en-suite layout
You say the drainage is in place and it has been screeded, therefore there is a drawing that the groundworkers worked from,
Not to sure what builders you have been working for tamz, but every house type i have ever done has always had heating schematics,drinage layout and most certainly bathroom layouts, how on earth can you design a house without producing plans?

 

[Gray0689]

Ask for a heating schematic, this will show you the heating layout! surely he has had the heating system system designed?
If they have a fllor plan, which they will need for the stud work layout then this will show the bathroom/en-suite layout
You say the drainage is in place and it has been screeded, therefore there is a drawing that the groundworkers worked from,
Not to sure what builders you have been working for tamz, but every house type i have ever done has always had heating schematics,drinage layout and most certainly bathroom layouts, how on earth can you design a house without producing plans?

I'm with tamz never had a plumbing drawing not on domestic

 

[so-solar]

you have never had a heating schematic? bathroom layout or drainage layouts?

What builders are you working for?

 

[adrianfs1]

hi guys, as said mostly sorted, he has floor plans of which he is going to copy and add aps etc, the build is a self build, and yes he has heating schematics, all seems to be working out.

 

[Toddyplumb]

Never had a heating design . WE do all our own. Bathrooms usually laid out just to complete the plans but are never where the customer actually wants them !

 

[tamz]

Not to sure what builders you have been working for tamz, but every house type i have ever done has always had heating schematics,drinage layout and most certainly bathroom layouts, how on earth can you design a house without producing plans?

Worked for many builders over the years from multinationals to small 1 man bands. You have obviously never done much new build.
Non domestic stuff you will get a layout or if it is underfloor. Boiler and rad positions are shown (not always) or agreed on. Sanitaryware layouts are shown but are usually changed after the 1st fix. Drainage positions are shown usually as pipe boxes of stacks and there is usually a schematic (to satisfy planning) which you couldn't follow in acorn.
The design of the actual layout of the pipes (sometimes the spec too) falls to the plumbing contractor mainly because architects don't know their rse from their elbow as far as systems go.

 

[Gray0689]

Worked for many builders over the years from multinationals to small 1 man bands. You have obviously never done much new build.
Non domestic stuff you will get a layout or if it is underfloor. Boiler and rad positions are shown (not always) or agreed on. Sanitaryware layouts are shown but are usually changed after the 1st fix. Drainage positions are shown usually as pipe boxes of stacks and there is usually a schematic (to satisfy planning) which you couldn't follow in acorn.
The design of the actual layout of the pipes (sometimes the spec too) falls to the plumbing contractor mainly because architects don't know their rse from their elbow as far as systems go.

I guess we work for the same kind of builders tamz
So solar Who designs these heating scimatics??

 

[Toddyplumb]

Ah Tamz Acorn !!!! Water like old engine oil !

 

[tamz]

Ah Tamz Acorn !!!! Water like old engine oil !

Aye, on a good day
Great stuff. Made with the same plastic as coppertone i think

 

[moony]

tamz isnt far off there from what i do.

first fix for a 3 bed 2 bathroom - a day - all plastic fantastic, longer if specified in copper.

invoice in for first fix - always want a payment staggered. over quote the first fix and under quote on the second is the way i work it. that way they always want you back

i dont go and second fix until i have the first fix payment.

and i try not to start another job for the same builder unless payment off the last job is completed - not say i dont trust builders haha - well actually i dont!

 

[so-solar]

I have been in the new build game for 15 years, so i hope to know what i am talking about by now, The site we are currently working on has a heating schematic for every plot, they are produced by quinn, i will try and scan and up load,
Also we use all of the mentioned drawing/schematic material for pricing the job, we are usually pricing a year before the build starts but we have a fantastic filing system that we keep all relevant paperwork for each plot. From an installers point of view i agree, you just put it in the easiest way. BUT its an impossible task to price.

 

[justlead1]

The talk of payment is most important. One of the reasons i specialise in lead work is simple because the last payment for plumbing and heating on new properties needs to be supported by the connection of gas, water and electric so every thing can be tested. On several occasions over the years clients had spent the monies on carpets, curtains cars holidays. When is come to pay me i had a shed full of hard luck stories and a diminishing bank balance, coupled with the stress that went with it. Good luck

 

[tamz]

I have been in the new build game for 15 years, so i hope to know what i am talking about by now, The site we are currently working on has a heating schematic for every plot, they are produced by quinn, i will try and scan and up load,

The heating drawings you have were not done by the architect on the original plans. The developer has had this done himself probably because some rep from Quinn approached him and offered. The designs are done for free on the premise of specing their materials.
All the boiler and radiator manu's will do a design if they are promised the sales.
90% of builders don't do this and it is left to the contractors who may or more often not approach the manu's. Any plumber worth his salt should be able to design the system themselves.
If you are left to spec the system you can then play the various manu's against each other for bigger rebates which is more money in your pocket.
The risk with this is you have a bigger outlay and potentially more to loose if (should be when) they go t..ts up.

The talk of payment is most important. On several occasions over the years clients had spent the monies on carpets, curtains cars holidays. When is come to pay me i had a shed full of hard luck stories and a diminishing bank balance, coupled with the stress that went with it. Good luck

This is one of the main things to watch for when doing one offs. The plumber is usually one of the last trades to completely finish on a new build by which time money is getting tight as justlead says. A new dining table or fancy car for the new drive is often more important to most than paying the plumber at the end.
That is why it is important to load the earlier stage payments to leave as little as you can lying out for completion. Try to keep the last payment to below £500 if you can.

I have said many times i would never work for builders again but relented on a program 4 years ago only as i knew the site manager who near pleaded with me to do the work.
On bigger jobs you put in a monthly valuation for the work done and it is paid the following month. (Sometimes they want a 5% builders discount and a 2.5% retainer. If they do build it into your price if you can, as most likely you will never see the retainer.)
Things went well on that one for around a year and a half then the houses stopped selling and within 2 months the banks were in and i was down 16K.
The builders were full of the usual apologies but that doesn't pay the bills. Around a year later i also got the obligatory letter from the receivers stating the obvious.

I will never work for builders again. The money can be good as can the continuity of work but the risks are always there.

If i had been paid all the money i was due from builders over the years i could have bought a big villa in Spain complete with the swimming pool for cash.
Thinking about it though i would have probably spent it on the usual rubbish

 

[so-solar]

The heating drawings you have were not done by the architect on the original plans. The developer has had this done himself probably because some rep from Quinn approached him and offered. The designs are done for free on the premise of specing their materials.
All the boiler and radiator manu's will do a design if they are promised the sales.
90% of builders don't do this and it is left to the contractors who may or more often not approach the manu's. Any plumber worth his salt should be able to design the system themselves.
If you are left to spec the system you can then play the various manu's against each other for bigger rebates which is more money in your pocket.
The risk with this is you have a bigger outlay and potentially more to loose if (should be when) they go t..ts up.



This is one of the main things to watch for when doing one offs. The plumber is usually one of the last trades to completely finish on a new build by which time money is getting tight as justlead says. A new dining table or fancy car for the new drive is often more important to most than paying the plumber at the end.
That is why it is important to load the earlier stage payments to leave as little as you can lying out for completion. Try to keep the last payment to below £500 if you can.

I have said many times i would never work for builders again but relented on a program 4 years ago only as i knew the site manager who near pleaded with me to do the work.
On bigger jobs you put in a monthly valuation for the work done and it is paid the following month. (Sometimes they want a 5% builders discount and a 2.5% retainer. If they do build it into your price if you can, as most likely you will never see the retainer.)
Things went well on that one for around a year and a half then the houses stopped selling and within 2 months the banks were in and i was down 16K.
The builders were full of the usual apologies but that doesn't pay the bills. Around a year later i also got the obligatory letter from the receivers stating the obvious.

I will never work for builders again. The money can be good as can the continuity of work but the risks are always there.

If i had been paid all the money i was due from builders over the years i could have bought a big villa in Spain complete with the swimming pool for cash.
Thinking about it though i would have probably spent it on the usual rubbish

We have been contracting to bovis homes for the last 15 years, sounds like we have been very lucky, I am amazed that you as a plumber are willing to design and install every install you come accross, we could do with a few more on our books like you, our lads are on a price and everything is done to drawing, any alterations or extras not to drawing are chargeable, variation orders pay our office staffs wages!

 

[tamz]

we could do with a few more on our books like you, our lads are on a price and everything is done to drawing, any alterations or extras not to drawing are chargeable, variation orders pay our office staffs wages!

I'm on my own books and could do with more like me too TBH i have decent guys who i know i can send anywhere and it will be done right. Maybe not as i would do it, but still right nonetheless.

The variations are where having a layout and working off a bill can, as you say make a big difference. You can still get vo's even if you are just working off an architects drawing. Once the contras start tho the job is usually fkd.

 

[so-solar]

I agree tamz, the new build game is far from easy nowadays, and to top it off the 2010 site agent attitude is terrible, i am yet to meet a decent agent with half a brain

 

[tamz]

i am yet to meet a decent agent with half a brain

That's because most of them started off as joiners or brickies who have absolutely no regard for us (or sparks) and the rest are straight from university and work from a book.

The money is getting worse especially from the volume builders due to the influx foreigners willing to undercut on everything. I hope it comes back to bite them on the rse.
H&S is another issue on the big sites. I'm all for health and safety but some, especially the one you mention on the lend lease side (but that is to please the gov) are going beyond ridiculous.
I still do work on big sites but in a specialist contracting thing where i can near dictate the terms as they have little option.

 

[ecenur]

Your the plumber, you need to be able to choose your pricing. You could either charge per hour which would include your time & the materials being used or you charge by flat rate. I would go over the whole situation with the builder. If you were to do it on a flat rate, see what their willing to offer if you find that your work might be more then expected you don't want to loose money which is why charging by the hour is better but then again, you work might not take as long. I think the best thing to do for now or in the future is go over the pricing methods with the builder, estimate approximately how much work needs to be done to make a decision on which method you want to go with.