Is a S flange out of the HWC really necessary ?

[realstokebloke]

I am fitting an shower pump (Salamander ESP 100, negative head) under the HWC in a gravity fed system.

I have run the pipework for the cold feed in, the cold out and the hot out, all in 22mm, as per spec.

But before i do the hot supply in from the cylinder, i wanted to check what's recommended by you guys if possible.

A couple of 'pro's' locally have told me i can use a compression tee off the horizontal out of the HWC and drop it down & across in 22mm to the pump for the hot feed.

Will this actually 'work' or am i better off getting an S flange fitted now?

Salamander obviously say an S or an Essex is vital.)

But...I can do the tee as above (I think) using a compression but think i'd need a plumber for the S flange and, at the end of the day, am trying to keep the costs down (& also learn as much as i can about plumbing jobs anyway out of interest).

So will i be asking for trouble with the DIY (tee out of the vertical exit pipe on the HWC) job or is the S flange route worth it for peace of mind / pump efficiency etc?

Appreciate your views / experiences - primarily as out of all the guys i've spoken to on this, none can tell me with any degree of confidence they did one last week & really know what they're doing - so i don't want some joker learning on me, possibly making a Horlics and getting paid for it.

(Appreciate too i'm obviously speaking to the wrong ones so far - but in the meantime any advice would be great, thanks.)

 

[realstokebloke]

Would it help to post a pic?

Have a boozy Jubilee celeb to do now but can do later (so perhaps make that tomorrow...)

 

[mountainman]

You can do it all three ways.
An Essex flange is best practice but can be tricky to fit, a Surrey flange is almost as good but easier to fit.
I wouldn't personally tee into the distribution pipe.

 

[jtsplumbing]

Surrey flange is the way to go ! have a look at cylinder and see if it has i blank'd off fitting on the side about 6" down (second'y return tapping) Essex flange you need more experience or you will finish up replaceing cylinder !! if you tee into hot pipe you could deaw air into pump causeing damage, Cheepest place iv'e seen surry flange Wicks , about £18.

 

[kay-jay]

Most shower manufacturers actually recommend tee ing downwards from the horizontal outlet with a pumped system. Check out aqualisa website for diagram

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[kay-jay]

As above ......the reason being flanges offer a lot of resistance and also air bubbles do not travel downwards....

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[barronbathrooms]

If you do not follow Manufacturers instructions they will not honour there guarantee. If you fit direct to hot water outlet there is a greater chance of air causing problems with the pump. I always install Essex flange or Surrey fitting!

 

[Guest123]

Yes, fit a Surrey or Essex flange.

 

[kay-jay]

There is a big difference between pump mi's and shower mi's for a pumped system. So who do you trust?......... Like i said in earlier post check aqualisa website for diagrams on how to plumb a pumped feed. Pumps all work on same principle.....shower manufacturers don't like flanges cos of restrictions affecting shower performance

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[kay-jay]

In fact ifirc the only flanges they recommend is a warix

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[realstokebloke]

Most shower manufacturers actually recommend tee ing downwards from the horizontal outlet with a pumped system. Check out aqualisa website for diagram

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Cheers KJ:

yes had a butchers at the Aqualiser site & the draw off the existing piepwork is most preferred & the flange is least (very odd?):

[DLMURL]http://www.aqualisa.co.uk/upload/INSTALLATION%20GUIDES/Install_Mach250_340.pdf[/DLMURL]

But, my draw off pipe (out of the HWC at the top) is vertical, not angled 'up' to the HW pipe network at the moment anyway - so would have to change that too &, at the end of the day, i have a Salamander and am pretty sure they do recommend a flange (i think they call a Surrey - the one at the top - a "S" flange).

They do:

http://salamanderpumps.co.uk/WebResources/Documents/Installation_Guidelines_Oct2011_Issue14.pdf

(So it's odd they & Aqualiser totally disagree on the same basic issue that the restriction of the flange outweighs the benefit of airation?)

So i take the hint that it's best to fit one or the other type of flange as barron bathrooms says - it then complies with the spec & warranty.

But...it will take a change of the pipework at the top - so i will post a pic of the existing to follow for a hint on what that entails if anyone can help / advise.

Thanks.

 

[Best]

Warix & Surrey flanges are very similar to each other, but if you have existing male bend on top of cylinder, then Warix is direct replacement, as the hot to all other supplies is from the side of a Warix & air free supply out of top for pump. Surrey flange is the opposite.
I personally wouldn't use Essex flanges even if I got them for free, as though they do give full flow, they are prone to leak due to heat on those rubber washers, destroying them. A new cylinder with a tapping near the top of side is best, or else Warix/Surrey flange. IMO.

 

[Howsie]

Do what every you're comfortable with and can afford now and in the future. Follow the MI and the pump manufacture will honor the guarantee. Don't and they won't. Bubbles are bad for a pump impeller.

Most of the pumps I've replaced have been tee'd into the hot feed off the top of the cylinder so make of that what you will.

Bubbles are bad for a pump impeller.

 

[kay-jay]

page 6 here [DLMURL]http://www.aqualisa.co.uk/upload/INSTALLATION%20GUIDES/Install_Mach250_340.pdf[/DLMURL] shows most preferred to least preferred options for connecting hot to pump. from aqualisa, and based on rigorous testing. note that essex/surrey flanges are not on list.

by teeing DOWNWARDS ​ air free supply is guaranteed as air does not travel downwards.

it all seems strange that shower mi's and pump mi's disagree on this though. follow one and ivalidate warranty on the other....

 

[kay-jay]

if you think about it teeing downwards from the hot supply it works on the same principle as a flange.

a flange has a dip tube which means that water is drawn from below the surface which ensures air free supply because any air above the diptube inlet will not enter supply because air will not travel downwards in water..........

 

[kay-jay]

in fact i just found this....

from stuart turner. the info here http://www.stuart-turner.co.uk/media/4336-Showermate-Standard-Single-and-Twin.pdf is exactly the same as that on the aqualisa website look at the wording and the diagrams). page 6 again shows preferred feeds and happily reccomends feed from hot supply without flanges.

 

[kay-jay]

therefore it follows that only the cheaper end of pump market is concerned about its impeller build and operational quality............

or perhaps they manufacture flanges......

 

[Howsie]

Air does travel downwards with water; small bubbles will follow the flow.

 

[kay-jay]

Obviously not to any degree that concerns Stuart turner just salamander., there may be others though. But two of the best makes of shower and pump respectively actually recommend teeing into supply rather than using a flange pg6 in the above links.

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[Howsie]

They probably tolerate the bubbles better than most.

I'm sure part of the reason that the 'tee' is in the MI's is to appear easy to install to the lay person.

 

[realstokebloke]

So - there really isn't a consensus is there? And arguably am more confused than ever.

As i say though, as i have a Salamander, i better do as per their instructions - altho' the Warix flange sounds good as a direct replacement - but even that is interesting (confusing?) as it seems to take the pump feed from the top of the flange - which is surely where the bubbles will rise into this pipe?

See p 6 as KJ suggests (last diagram on right):

http://www.stuart-turner.co.uk/media/4336-Showermate-Standard-Single-and-Twin.pdf

Better check if salamander also "allow" Warix flanges? *

And interesting to think that, if i just phone & ask different five plumbers locally, will i get five different answers?

* They do - just checked but the pump supply from the top confuses me (as per post below).

 

[realstokebloke]

in fact i just found this....

from stuart turner. the info here http://www.stuart-turner.co.uk/media/4336-Showermate-Standard-Single-and-Twin.pdf is exactly the same as that on the aqualisa website look at the wording and the diagrams). page 6 again shows preferred feeds and happily reccomends feed from hot supply without flanges.

I know KJ - i'm totally confuddled by it now (as post below).

I guess the problem with my tee would be that it is not angled up off the top of the cylinder (like diags 1 & 2 on pp6) but just vertically straight across.

So if i have to start altering the angle of the pipe etc, i may as well just fit a flange? (& then also be covered warranty / MI's wise?)

 

[realstokebloke]

Warix & Surrey flanges are very similar to each other, but if you have existing male bend on top of cylinder, then Warix is direct replacement, as the hot to all other supplies is from the side of a Warix & air free supply out of top for pump. Surrey flange is the opposite.
I personally wouldn't use Essex flanges even if I got them for free, as though they do give full flow, they are prone to leak due to heat on those rubber washers, destroying them. A new cylinder with a tapping near the top of side is best, or else Warix/Surrey flange. IMO.

Cheers Best - i wish i knew what was / is "best" tho' : )

I get the bubbles thing (in theory they only rise & so a tee down should be OK but, also get they might get sucked in & damage the impellar(s) - so a flange is a failsafe & complies with MI.)

I think I also get the warix issue you are talking about here (that the pipework to the other HW services is from the side & the pump feed is from the top - compared to the other way around on the S flange).

So, in theory, that's slightly less pipework to alter (the height of the horizontal feed across into the existing vertical HW pipes).

But...won't a feed up (off the top of a warix) just encourage air to rise up into that pipe & then get sucked down into the pump anyway?

I have also ruled out an Essex - i would be asking for trouble on a DIY and i have yet to find a plumber to touch one with a barge pole!

 

[realstokebloke]

therefore it follows that only the cheaper end of pump market is concerned about its impeller build and operational quality............

or perhaps they manufacture flanges......

That blinking Salamander wasn't cheap i tell you : )

 

[realstokebloke]

I've googled a warix:

http://www.plumbclick.co.uk/external/commerce/1/gfx/hires/Warix_Flange.jpg

and Salamander say it needs a compression elbow at the top:

"The supply connection to the pump
MUST BE FROM THE TOP of the Warix
Flange via a 22mm compression elbow
and thereby avoid inverted loops."

So do i just fit a compression elbow directly on top of that warix plse (on the rising bit sticking up)? (is that how it's done?)

and also do i need to check my cylinder (will be circa 15 yrs old) has a particualr type of thread into it? (i.e. the S flanges read like they have an adapter for male / female threads at the top of the cylinder.

I guess they are all 22mm at the top?

 

[realstokebloke]

in fact i just found this....

from stuart turner. the info here http://www.stuart-turner.co.uk/media/4336-Showermate-Standard-Single-and-Twin.pdf is exactly the same as that on the aqualisa website look at the wording and the diagrams). page 6 again shows preferred feeds and happily reccomends feed from hot supply without flanges.

KJ:

also in there (Stuart Turner - but not in Salamanders) on pp4 / figs 5 & 6, it shows the "preferred area"...and also those double triangles in the diags - i assume these are valves?

and I see the "preferred area" is the area they would prefer the pump to go in (which just basically looks to be under the height of the hot pump supply?) but is it also the preferred place for the iso valves?

i.e. does that just mean, don't fit the isolator valves higher than the hot pump inlet in the pipework?

Is it a "must" as i will struggle for space to fit same - just due to the layout of the area and available space.

 

[Mike Jackson]

If your existing pipe off the top of the cylinder runs horizontally straight from the top of the cylinder then a Warix flange is easiest. The top outlet is connected to a dip tube to avoid air entrapment.

The thread on the top of your cylinder will probably be 1" FI but could be 3/4.


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[Best]

Agree with above comments. Standard copper cylinders are 1" female, as are the standard flanges.
Any valves you fit need to be full flow, therefore gate valves, or the much better lever valves which are not expensive & trouble free. Just fit the lever valve for the hot supply to pump as close to where it leaves the cylinder if you can, or on the drop to pump. Cold supply normally better with valve at cold tank, but another valve fitted nearer the pump handy. Really all a job for a professional plumber,- all done in nice, carefully bent & clipped, copper pipes.

 

[kay-jay]

wouldn't worry too much about isolation location. do whats practical for you. its not a deal breaker. just as long as they isolate the correct parts of system, anywhere accessible on the pipes will do.

 

[kay-jay]

p.s if salamander require a comp elbow from cylinder then you will need to reroute your vertical outlet anyway, so you could do that and not bother with flange? s'up to you at end of the day. p.s how much was pump? i can get stu turners for only a few quid more from an independent merchant....look into it and maybe take the silly mander back :25:

 

[realstokebloke]

If your existing pipe off the top of the cylinder runs horizontally straight from the top of the cylinder then a Warix flange is easiest. The top outlet is connected to a dip tube to avoid air entrapment.

The thread on the top of your cylinder will probably be 1" FI but could be 3/4.


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Yes, it has an elbow out of the top & then runs horizontally across.

So the Warrix needed is either 1" / 22mm (most likely) or 3/4" / 22mm then?

Is the " (inch) measurement across the fitting to check plse?

 

[realstokebloke]

Fine with that - i was told (elsewhere on here to avoid gates AND lever valves though?) and to get full bore iso's (the ones with a screw driver turn).

Too late on the "all nice neat copper etc" - i have run the other three in PEX (but it is very nice & neat also.)

 

[Best]

Fine with that - i was told (elsewhere on here to avoid gates AND lever valves though?) and to get full bore iso's (the ones with a screw driver turn)

Too late on the "all nice neat copper etc" - i have run the other three in PEX (but it is very nice & neat also.)

Lever valves are not as tamper proof as iso's with screw slot, but they are perfect for pump & other supplies & I doubt full bore iso's are all as good quality as levers.
No such thing as neat plastic pipes IMO, copper with soldered joints, machine bends & the pump hoses straight, is the real way! :grin:

 

[realstokebloke]

Pity! No such thing as neat plastic pipes IMO, copper with soldered joints, machine bends & the pump hoses straight, is the real way! :grin:

Well, the pump hoses are as straight as the horseguards at the palace at the weekend anyway.

I'll try a pic to show the pipe runs as well though, so you can scoff some more

Now, how do i tell what my fitting (in the top of the HWC) is without draining the whole caboodle & getting the old one out first plse?

 

[realstokebloke]

p.s if salamander require a comp elbow from cylinder then you will need to reroute your vertical outlet anyway, so you could do that and not bother with flange? s'up to you at end of the day. p.s how much was pump? i can get stu turners for only a few quid more from an independent merchant....look into it and maybe take the silly mander back :25:

No can do KJ sorry, Had the Salamander a while now, so won't honour any returns.

If it all goes belly up though - I'll get back to you.

Are they not good 'uns tthemselves though?

Not knowing & being my forst ever pump purchase, i thought they were right up there in the pump food chain.

 

[Best]

A 22mm x 1" male bend will narrow from the threaded end, a 22mm x 3/4" will not. Hope that makes sense. You most likely have the 1" threads. A plumber would know at a glance.
Salamander pumps are a middle quality pump that if fitted well give good service usually, but Stuart & Turner are pure quality ( you just need to fit one & you won't use anything else) & as far as I know, make high quality versions for other companies.

 

[kay-jay]

i agree with bests last post!

if you have the appropriate reducer at hand then you will have no problems completing the job.
btw a full drain down is not necessary for the flange. isolate or bung the cwsc (header tank for cylinder) open hot tap til nothing comes out, wrap a couple of towels around cylinder and open union slowly shouldn't get more than a few drips down the side.

 

[realstokebloke]

A 22mm x 1" male bend will narrow from the threaded end, a 22mm x 3/4" will not. Hope that makes sense. You most likely have the 1" threads. A plumber would know at a glance.

"...know at a glance..."

I just shot the fitting at the top of the cylinder but can't find the download lead to post it on here ! ("durr") for now anyway - a household enquiry will reveal same later hopefully - then some kind soul can twll me (at a glance) the fitting i have & the one i'll need i hope.

In other words Best - (& sorry to be dense) it "sort of" made sense but not totally.

 

[realstokebloke]

i agree with bests last post!

if you have the appropriate reducer at hand then you will have no problems completing the job.
btw a full drain down is not necessary for the flange. isolate or bung the cwsc (header tank for cylinder) open hot tap til nothing comes out, wrap a couple of towels around cylinder and open union slowly shouldn't get more than a few drips down the side.

When i do it, i have to move the header tank anyway to fit ano 25gallon tank (50G for the shower cold feed), so i was going to drain it & give it a good clean anyway.

So are you saying running the hot taps will drain off enough water (plus a few towels) so i don;t need to use the drain cock at the base of the cylinder & empty it.

Cheers.

 

[stevetheplumber]

it rare for me to losemoney on any job but the two that spring to mind both involved salamander pumps and minor deviations from the mi's

 

[kay-jay]

When i do it, i have to move the header tank anyway to fit ano 25gallon tank (50G for the shower cold feed), so i was going to drain it & give it a good clean anyway.

So are you saying running the hot taps will drain off enough water (plus a few towels) so i don;t need to use the drain cock at the base of the cylinder & empty it.

Cheers.

If you are changing the header tank then you need to drain down. Bunging won't help you. However if you turn off cold mains and run hot tap you Will empty the header and not the cylinder allowing you to add an extra 25gall tank or replace with 50gall tank. The Bunging would allow you to remove the hot water coupling from the cylinder to fit a flange without draining. Hope this makes sense bit im drunk right now......

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[realstokebloke]

If you are changing the header tank then you need to drain down. Bunging won't help you. However if you turn off cold mains and run hot tap you Will empty the header and not the cylinder allowing you to add an extra 25gall tank or replace with 50gall tank. The Bunging would allow you to remove the hot water coupling from the cylinder to fit a flange without draining. Hope this makes sense bit im drunk right now......

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Yes it does cheers KJ (Hooray - i am finally being able to understand most of what's been posted ! Must be geting better. )

Here's my plan:

I need to move the header tank first, so will turn off rising main, isolate tank on cw feed valve & drain off the CH by the stopcock on the rad nearest the door & out. Re-position. Give it a good clean out & re-fill.

Then drain the cold existing water (CWSC?) tank (opening all the hot taps to drain). Add ano 25gallon CWSC with x2 22mm link pipes (better than 1x 28mm apparently) and run 22mm pipe out of the far end of the new tank direct to the pump.

I have run cold & hot pipes out of the pump, back up to the loft, down the the mixer valve, back up & across & to the shower (overhead drench).

I just then need to decide on the best way to get the hot water in to the pump (Warix / S etc.)

When i do that I think i get your instructions KJ thanks: i.e. "bung" the header, open the taps & use some towels when fitting the flange.

By the way, can you fit an iso valve on the header tank 'out' to the cylinder (instead of bunging it)?

Mine currently has no isolation on the out - so could fit when move it - or is it bad practise / not the done thing?

 

[kay-jay]

first paragraph - turn off rising main - correct

drain off the ch by the stopcock on the rad nearest door (why? you should have a header for the hw and a smaller on for the heating, should be no need to drain the ch from a rad unless you need to move the small ch header to accommodate the new hw header....ok so far? if the ch header (f+e tank its called) does need moving then your plan of attack should be

1)turn off rising main
2)connect hose to rad drain point, drain a small amount then shut off drain and check tank...you are only draining enough to empty the tank plus a bit more to empty a bit of pipe so you can solder new connections to re-route to new location. there is absolutely no need to drain down all your heating. you would only run the risk of air locks on refill.

3)ensure ch is turned off!!!! then move tank to new location and repipe. move it as little as possible to negate the possibility of affecting heating operation and creating problems like dragging air in or pumping over!! new location should be at the same height if possible.also if possible look at boiler manual for guidance on which locations it can be sited. moving the feed and vent will alter their relationship to pump position which could cause problems.

3) proceed to drain the hw header through taps just until header is empty. you wont need to bung anything that would just allow you to uncouple the hw cylinder union to fit a warix flange without draining. but as you are draining to move the header there is no bungs required. just drain header and move it as you did the f+e tank. while it is drained fit your warix or tee into hw pipe or whatever it is you have decided to provide the hw connection. when your'e happy with your pipes and connections open the rising main again and check for leaks in loft and around pump.

 

[realstokebloke]

Cheers KJ.

Good & bad.

Good(ish): yes, i have moved the "F&E" (thanks) over & across (just a bit to allow another header tank to link alongside to the existing one) I made sure it is at exactly the same height etc. But crucially, it has not moved far at all - and is closer to being 'over' the cylinder in the loft than it was before as i made a new platform alongised the existing one & so far so good.

I have moved the overflow and expansion pipes into it so far - now i just need to re-route the cold feed into the ball valve to fill.

Not so good tho' (reading the above) is that i thought i had to drain the CH completely, so just opened the stop-cock & drained it down while i did all the above.

"Durr".

So i have it empty as we speak and will refill when i get the cold feed in again later. Of course you are right to say you only need to drain down low enough to empty the F&E so i don't take a gold star for that one.

Obviously i haven't had the central heating on tho' - so not a disaster (i hope).

I take it i now run the risk of air locks on a refill you say? So is there anything specifically to do to avoid if possible? It's not terminal surely - otherwise how does anyone ever fill the system to start?

I have had the HW on though & seems fine.

I was going to just put enough back in the F&E tank tank to test the new joints i've soldered in - although i realise now, i'll be filling from the bottom up so it will take longer of course.

"Durr" (ii)

Two Q's though:

1. while i had the F&E drained down, i took the opportunity to give the tank a damn good clean (it was pretty mucky in there) but i wasn't too shocked at the colour of the water at the end of the drain to be fair - but that said, what the thoughts on any additives to go back in there?

Are they (as one plumber told me recently) a "complete waste of time & money" or do they actually work? & if so, which ones? Should i put a cleaner in now while it's empty & an inhibitor when it's back full up?

They aren't cheap if they are a waste of time, i agree.

2. when i moved the waste overflow from the F&E to re-site it, i had to butcher the waste tank connector as the dip tube was all solvent welded in. hence i need to get a new one. Do i get a straight replacement (22mm screw fit though to the pipe) or is is worth getting a bylaw 30 compatible one with the air vent & mesh etc?

thanks.

 

[kay-jay]

no need for byelaw 30 on f and e tank.

if all rads get hot and no issues with cold spots put an inhibitor chemical in after you have checked for leaks. it is important to do this every 12 months on an open vent system like yours. the plumber you spoke to is a plonker!

 

[realstokebloke]

no need for byelaw 30 on f and e tank.

if all rads get hot and no issues with cold spots put an inhibitor chemical in after you have checked for leaks. it is important to do this every 12 months on an open vent system like yours. the plumber you spoke to is a plonker!

Cheers again.

I will get an "ordinary" tank connector for the F&E waste then, thanks.

I will re-fill & bleed them all & get an inhibitor (is that "Sentinel" worth the extra btw?).

Yes he was.

Note the past tense & testament to that is that i'd rather learn & tackle this job myself than have him back (or a few others like him i've spoken to tbh).

 

[realstokebloke]

no need for byelaw 30 on f and e tank.

if all rads get hot and no issues with cold spots put an inhibitor chemical in after you have checked for leaks. it is important to do this every 12 months on an open vent system like yours. the plumber you spoke to is a plonker!

Oh btw, i can use the hot water without the heating systemn being re-filled can't I?

Thanks.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

you can with the immersion heater

 

[kay-jay]

You Will need to have the cwsc filled up too

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[kay-jay]

About the inhibitor ....If you have a local merchants they should have a cheaper alternative. I use calmag products at moment 4.95 plus vat. Sentinel and fernox are good too but should cost no more than a tenner plus vat.

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