soldering a hwc ; is it practical?

[hgee1205]

Hello
I have a problem with a leaking Essex flange mentioned previously.I have tried various fixes but it always starts weeping again. I may be moving and dont want to have a new tank fitted but want to make the valve watertight
The HWC can be drained so I can get the valve joint dry to try to fix ; I have found that the large nut which tightens the valve against the tank is seized solid so I cannot undo or tighten it and also the washer has perished ;I am using Loktite 55 bound tight and epoxy putty which has helped but not solved the leak
So I wondered how practical it would be to solder the large nut in place ; I can push the seized nut flush with the tank surface and wondered if I held it there I could try soldering it in place
I have only used circuit solder not plumbing solder ; does plumb solder have a similar melting point or not?
could I use an iron or do I need to use a flame? I would obviously prefer an iron if possible for safety reasons
Thanks for any tips on this

 

[Roy_66]

Any chance of adding a picture to help with comments about the best way to repair. Also is the tank covered in stuck on foam or older type without foam?

If you haven't soldered plumbing before then try some representative scrap on the bench. The bigger/chunkier the components the more torch power you will need. The art is to get it in the sweet spot temperature wise to get a melt, but not overheating it. Everything needs first taking to bits and cleaning and fluxing before you start, and you don't want any non metal components in there whilst soldering e.g. rubber etc

Cheers,

Roy (amateur)

 

[gmartine]

It's possible but if you haven't soft soldered with a flame before I strongly advise not starting with that or you could make a right mess.

Have you tried a non-setting compound like Boss White? Clean out the gap as best you can and pack out the gap with say PTFE tape and Boss White or hemp & paste. A hard setting repair putty isn't going to work on something you can't access directly and Loctite 55 is for sealing a thread not a gap. Otherwise if not too serious leave for new owners.

 

[hgee1205]

Any chance of adding a picture to help with comments about the best way to repair. Also is the tank covered in stuck on foam or older type without foam?

If you haven't soldered plumbing before then try some representative scrap on the bench. The bigger/chunkier the components the more torch power you will need. The art is to get it in the sweet spot temperature wise to get a melt, but not overheating it. Everything needs first taking to bits and cleaning and fluxing before you start, and you don't want any non metal components in there whilst soldering e.g. rubber etc

Cheers,

Roy (amateur)

It's possible but if you haven't soft soldered with a flame before I strongly advise not starting with that or you could make a right mess.

Have you tried a non-setting compound like Boss White? Clean out the gap as best you can and pack out the gap with say PTFE tape and Boss White or hemp & paste. A hard setting repair putty isn't going to work on something you can't access directly and Loctite 55 is for sealing a thread not a gap. Otherwise if not too serious leave for new owners.
View attachment 75595

Any chance of adding a picture to help with comments about the best way to repair. Also is the tank covered in stuck on foam or older type without foam?

If you haven't soldered plumbing before then try some representative scrap on the bench. The bigger/chunkier the components the more torch power you will need. The art is to get it in the sweet spot temperature wise to get a melt, but not overheating it. Everything needs first taking to bits and cleaning and fluxing before you start, and you don't want any non metal components in there whilst soldering e.g. rubber etc

Cheers,

Roy (amateur)

Hi
Thanks for the replies
I will attach pics of the valve ; this is before and after using Loktite 55 then aqua epoxy putty on top .I was annoyed after all this that water still finds its way out at the bottom ; it still drips but is wicked away with a piece of sponge cloth and is manageable at present

At first I used ptfe tape wrapped tight in the gap which left a constant slow drip
I then covered in LS-X which I thought would sort it but the water eventually forced its way out of the silicone - bugger!

Boss white is about the only thing I have not tried!!
Guess it might be worth trying Boss white where the water weeps at the bottom ; can it be applied wet or do I need to drain down again?
Will boss white take the water pressure in the tank OK?

I guess I could get a plumber to try soldering the valve in place for me?

Thanks again and any further tips welcome

 

[hgee1205]

Hi
Thanks for the replies
I will attach pics of the valve ; this is before and after using Loktite 55 then aqua epoxy putty on top .I was annoyed after all this that water still finds its way out at the bottom ; it still drips but is wicked away with a piece of sponge cloth and is manageable at present

At first I used ptfe tape wrapped tight in the gap which left a constant slow drip
I then covered in LS-X which I thought would sort it but the water eventually forced its way out of the silicone - bugger!

Boss white is about the only thing I have not tried!!
Guess it might be worth trying Boss white where the water weeps at the bottom ; can it be applied wet or do I need to drain down again?
Will boss white take the water pressure in the tank OK?

I guess I could get a plumber to try soldering the valve in place for me?

Thanks again and any further tips welcomeView attachment 75600View attachment 75601View attachment 75602

Sorry forgot to ask ; I knew about hemp but cant find it anywhere
Can it still be bought?
Also if so what paste would you use with it?
thanks

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Boss white and yes you can still get hemp

Drain down and j b weld it ?

 

[hgee1205]

Boss white and yes you can still get hemp

Drain down and j b weld it ?

Hi
JB is interesting idea ; I have tried Devcon epoxy resin which did not work but I see the JB is a different type of product. However , I have just used Aqua epoxy putty as you can see and wonder if is maybe similar?
Could I try boss white over the putty where it leaks?

I did not look carefully ; I see hemp sealing kits on Amazon and screwfix; can someone recommend a product that may work
thanks

 

[ShaunCorbs]

The key is you need to drain the cylinder down and coat the whole thing eg including the nut and threads, leave the cylinder empty until it’s dry

 

[hgee1205]

The key is you need to drain the cylinder down and coat the whole thing eg including the nut and threads, leave the cylinder empty until it’s dry

Hi
You mean when using the JB weld right?
Don't forget I cant tighten the nut up to the tank as its seized solid so all I can do is push the nut up against the tank until whatever I use is set!

PS will boss white seal the weeping leak or not if applied over the top?
Appreciate the help

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Either do you have play in the nut eg can move it ?

No boss white and hemp you would need to strip the Essex flange

 

[gmartine]

Instead of pushing the nut up against the tank and trying to seal around that I'm thinking you have to do the opposite...

As I suggested in my first reply pull and keep the nut away from the cylinder skin and pack the gap with whatever sealant, tape or epoxy you're going to try, I'd leave trying an epoxy till last as it'll be impossible to remove.

How big is the gap, the thickness of the perished rubber washer so 2-3 mm or so?

 

[Ben-gee]

I’m with gmartine, you’re going about it the wrong way.
There will be a sealing washer on the inside, you need to pull this against the cylinder. I would try pulling the thing out as far as you can and knock a couple of wedged shims between the nut and the cylinder wall.
This should in fact be all you need to do, however you could then fill the gap etc with JB if it proved insufficient.

 

[gmartine]

@ Ben-gee, the sealing washer on the other side has probably perished too.

 

[hgee1205]

Thanks for suggestions

Been reading all this ; fitted at least 20 years ago so am I right that on the inside you fit a split copper washer followed by a fibre washer?
Gmartine may be right ; when I cleared out the perished outer washer I could see a light yellow white deposit around the hole on the inside?
I could not turn the nut at all with a decent spanner so frightened to do damage
I bet modern Essex flange uses decent rubber washers! Bugger

Just wonder if I'm back to the soldering plan after cleaning the gap out again , tightening the joint against the tank with maybe a wrap round ratchet strap
Could I use a mini flame torch and practice on some pipe beforehand?
solder will run into the gap and find its way into the joint I guess

Would a plumber come round to do it for me if I'm not comfortable to do it myself?

 

[gmartine]

I don't think you're grasping our suggestion.

Pull the seized nut back away from the cylinder and fill the gap with sealant and or tape behind it and the cylinder wall.

 

[hgee1205]

I don't think you're grasping our suggestion.

Pull the seized nut back away from the cylinder and fill the gap with sealant and or tape behind it and the cylinder wall.

View attachment 75636

Hi Gmartine
Yes I can promise you I get it!
It is what I have been doing from the start ; first using ptfe tape in the 2mm gap with the old washer removed and winding tight in the gap a thousand times which resulted in a slow constant leak which got worse over time.
I tried smearing LS-X around the outside which helped a bit but eventually the water burst through the silicone bigtime
Second time I have used Loktite 55 instead with Aqua Epoxy Putty on the outside as shown.This has given the best result with about 2 eggcups a day so far which I wick away but I wonder if it will get worse or better over time?
I can tell you that when I was cleaning the joint I found that I could pull out the big nut out quite a lot from the tank , maybe a cm! So I wonder if trying to pack such a large gap is not possible and so I pushed it back in to 2mm when wound the tape around followed by putty to try to lock it in place
I wish I had thought to use a strap to push the nut tighter so that the putty might seal it better (too late now)

 

[Chuck]

I suspect that whoever originally installed the flanges used some oil-based grease (e.g. vaseline) and the rubber seals have perished as a result. You're lucky you haven't had a flood!

Whatever, I suggest that you get a professional plumber to sort it out for you properly. They might be able to replace Essex flange (by removing the immersion heater for access) but it depends a bit on why the seal failed and how much damage subsequent attempts to bodge it have done. Also, cleaning off vaseline (or whatever) from the inside so the same thing doesn't happen again will be a bit of a game. If I'm right it's possible that all the flanges need attention. I'd be recommending a new cylinder myself.

While they're at it the cable needs replacing and installing properly with the strain relief and insulation done properly.

When you try to sell the flat any competent surveyor will spot evidence of leaking and an amateur attempt at a fix. If so, they'll reduce their valuation by far more than it'll cost you to get the cylinder replaced at this point.

 

[gmartine]

Chuck is almost always a sensible voice of reason, I'd just like you to get it done by almost any means so often I'm not. Perhaps as a final throw try an all weather sealant that'll work in the wet (I'd still drain down past the flange) and get an insulation jacket to cover up your workings.

Edit: Actually I like Puraflex 40 when I want to stick and waterproof anything to anything, fairly confident it'll work for you but it's tough to work with when cold so warm it up in a bucket of very hot water.

Puraflex 40 PU Sealant & Adhesive

Noticing cracks or expansion in concrete? Purafelex 40 PU sealant will help you fix it quickly. It's a useful tool to have in any construction site or home, as it bonds to most materials. This product will work on concrete, wood, metal, aluminium, polyester, glass, uPVC, stone and ceramic.Thanks...

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[hgee1205]

Chuck is almost always a sensible voice of reason, I'd just like you to get it done by almost any means so often I'm not. Perhaps as a final throw try an all weather sealant that'll work in the wet (I'd still drain down past the flange) and get an insulation jacket to cover up your workings.

Edit: Actually I like Puraflex 40 when I want to stick and waterproof anything to anything, fairly confident it'll work for you but it's tough to work with when cold so warm it up in a bucket of very hot water.

Puraflex 40 PU Sealant & Adhesive

Noticing cracks or expansion in concrete? Purafelex 40 PU sealant will help you fix it quickly. It's a useful tool to have in any construction site or home, as it bonds to most materials. This product will work on concrete, wood, metal, aluminium, polyester, glass, uPVC, stone and ceramic.Thanks...

www.toolstation.com

Hi Gmartine
thanks for the idea ; there is only an eggcup a day leaking and just oozing out so your product may do the trick.I will give it a go
cheers