Zoning education.

[Dan Masey]

I'm still trying to get my head around central heating zones. I understand the practicality and that each zone has its own thermostat or programmer. But someone asked me today, how is having a separate thermostat upstairs any different than setting all the upstairs TRV's to 3 or 4??

Wasn't really sure on the best answer to this. Obviously a separate programmer makes sense but is it really worth it just having a thermostat controlling that zone?

 

[AWheating]

its supposed to be energy saving. If the trv's are turn down or off then it wont make any difference really.

im guessing the powers that be believe that the general public are either to lazy or thick to turn things down or off

i cant really see the point to it in most domestic systems, but on new build you cant avoid it.

 

[Leo21]

I personally don't think the saving will be big enough to pay for the extra installation costs.
I haven't seen any one do it on existing houses, not even holier than though British gas.

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

I'm still trying to get my head around central heating zones. I understand the practicality and that each zone has its own thermostat or programmer. But someone asked me today, how is having a separate thermostat upstairs any different than setting all the upstairs TRV's to 3 or 4??

Wasn't really sure on the best answer to this. Obviously a separate programmer makes sense but is it really worth it just having a thermostat controlling that zone?

A good answer is that stats, valeves and timers interlock the boiler, stopping it burning gas. You could turn all your trvs off on the boiler will just cycle on and off

 

[Dan Masey]

Yea exactly, I understand it on new builds. But on existing...

Extra bundle of 22mm, 2 port valve, extra thermostat, cable,

Or just turn the trvs down upstairs. Most people want the upstairs 1 or 2 degrees lower anyway.

 

[solutions]

Wireless programable trv heads is often an easier way to supply the same level of interlock on existing systems but unless its a really large property there is little to gain. The additional cost of the valve heads would take some considerable time to repay based on the improved efficiency. As with most of these central heating efficiency improvements the home owner would be better off improving insulation and fitting heat recovery ventilation.

 

[Ermintrude]

Wireless programable trv heads is often an easier way to supply the same level of interlock on existing systems but unless its a really large property there is little to gain. The additional cost of the valve heads would take some considerable time to repay based on the improved efficiency. As with most of these central heating efficiency improvements the home owner would be better off improving insulation and fitting heat recovery ventilation.

Remote trv providing boiler interlock? Which ones do this?

 

[tamz]

Danfoss living connect

http://heating.danfoss.com/PCMPDF/living-connect_VIFNE302.pdf

 

[solutions]

Remote trv providing boiler interlock? Which ones do this?

Danfoss living connect

http://heating.danfoss.com/PCMPDF/living-connect_VIFNE302.pdf

Amongst others. The cheapest of this type of system I have found so far is on Conrad components website have not had an opportunity to try them yet though. Heres the link for those interested. http://www.conrad-electronic.co.uk/ce/en/overview/2805070/HomeMatic-Wireless-Heating-Control-Systems

 

[Ermintrude]

Wow, so actually provides "real" interlock I.e controls time and temp and switches boiler on and off? But if upstairs has 7 or 8 rads wouldn't it be cheaper and more simplistic to maintain with a traditional stat/programmer and z/v?

 

[AWheating]

A good answer is that stats, valeves and timers interlock the boiler, stopping it burning gas. You could turn all your trvs off on the boiler will just cycle on and off

you get boiler interlock with one zone or multipul zones.

 

[Leo21]

Wow, so actually provides "real" interlock I.e controls time and temp and switches boiler on and off? But if upstairs has 7 or 8 rads wouldn't it be cheaper and more simplistic to maintain with a traditional stat/programmer and z/v?

I think that all depends on pipe layout. If the boilers upstairs and downstairs is a solid floor,you'd have to double up on pipe runs.

 

[Ermintrude]

I think that all depends on pipe layout. If the boilers upstairs and downstairs is a solid floor,you'd have to double up on pipe runs.

Yes good point, had my big house goggles on. Would be a mare on microbore 90's build with 8mm droppers!

 

[happyflyer]

Danfoss living connect

http://heating.danfoss.com/PCMPDF/living-connect_VIFNE302.pdf

Tamz,

There are lots of companies making this sort of gear now, there is a real market out there. I know its a bit expensive but TRV don't work all
that good and you cannot time zone TRV individually,if you want to save energy battery wireless operated TRV is the way to go, you can get rid of your two zone valve and put two fingers up to the shameful building regulations which are 20 years behind the times, they will never catch up, we will have to do it for them.

There is no education needed in zoning, its a no-brainer, you will never get condemned for putting too much control in, it just cost a little more, and like someone has just said, get a solid GF and piping two zone is a pig, in plastic though I suppose you could just throw it everywhere, no one will see it under the FBs.:crazy:

Tamz I take it you are promoting this stuff for your jobs, promoting the good use of energy in Scotland, where it is much colder


Tony

http://www.syxthsense.com/thermostats/tx-vtrx/tx-wireless-electronic-radiator-valve-actuator/

http://www.plumbarena.co.uk/product...gclid=CPSP6Ya0wLoCFQXHtAodhlkAVw#.UnHzcTxFCJA

http://www.saveonheatingbills.co.uk/ look at i-temp

 

[happyflyer]

Take a look a USA house FIVE ZONES, note the singles yellow feeding the valve actuators all 24VAC, easy and safe to work on, bit of a mess,
also note the air extractor on top of the expansion vessel, still available here in UK but not much used on domestic, TOO EXPENSIVE
not need, client doesn't want to pay, BTW we still make zone valves in 240VAC what idiots, maybe in 20 years time we will go 24VAC

How to remove the air from your boiler / heater - YouTube

 

[Ermintrude]

My house and a few of the ones I have done out are individually controlled rooms. Zv and Myson mptrf for each room. Would send pic of part of manifold in my house but it's rough as owt.

 

[Leo21]

My house and a few of the ones I have done out are individually controlled rooms. Zv and Myson mptrf for each room. Would send pic of part of manifold in my house but it's rough as owt.

Youve got to post a picture now! It would be wrong not to.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Youve got to post a picture now! It would be wrong not to.

I agree. Failing to post a pic now would actually be a crime against nature.

 

[happyflyer]

Spot on Ray, need photos or no good, I need proper explanation at my age, writing is no good on its own, try and keep them in focus please or they will look good when I take my glasses off. Wireless rad valves rules OK.

 

[happyflyer]

I agree. Failing to post a pic now would actually be a crime against nature.

A crime against "Humanity" Ray its more serious than you make it out to be. It would be nice if you could tick the "I Like" box for your own post hey!!!

 

[happyflyer]

My house and a few of the ones I have done out are individually controlled rooms. Zv and Myson mptrf for each room. Would send pic of part of manifold in my house but it's rough as owt.

Ermi what is rough as owt, the photo, the workmanship or what, you got me worried, are you really PSR, (Photographic Safe Registered)

 

[Ermintrude]

It's the pipe work. Not shaking like a dog taking a poop ( unlike welsh contingents) valve manifold tidy just a bit too much speed fit on outlets. Will shame myself later.

Rough as owt is northern dialect for "the work appears to have been done by a man wearing Stetson and riding a pony"

 

[happyflyer]

Ermi,

Why don't you do like others do, don't tell them you did it.....:59:

 

[Ermintrude]

Fist floor manifold. It's a nice job really!

 

[happyflyer]

Ermi,

I would have come straight up with those plastics and then you don't need the plastic elbows, it's all extra pressure drop Ermi, good job you
good a cupboard to hide it all in, gone mad with the 15mm clips got some over off a job, or big cheapo bag from B&Q, why didn't you buy a 200 mtre
roll of plastic then no joints.If you can bronze weld you could have made up you own manifolds , never mind thanks for sharing it with us all Ermi,

Tony

I have PM you

 

[Ermintrude]

Stuff going under itv

 

[Leo21]

Looks alright to me, your roughest job is always your own home anyway.

 

[Worcester]

I could have it wrong, however it looks as though only the Honeywell and Danfoss have true boiler interlock (zone valve / pump), or did I miss it on the other two?

(the other two still rely on existing room stat / timer controls, so if room stat up to temp, but one room cold it doesn't get heated, or you want a room heated earlier say nice warm bathroom for early shower tomorrow, it may not happen..)

 

[happyflyer]

Looks alright to me, your roughest job is always your own home anyway.

Ouch!:boxing_smiley:

 

[Worcester]

Also looks like the others are radiator by radiator, whereas it seems like only Honeywell and Danfoss allows you to combine radiators into rooms / zones..

 

[tiptoptrump]

Also looks like the others are radiator by radiator, whereas it seems like only Honeywell and Danfoss allows you to combine radiators into rooms / zones..

I bit the bullet last Xmas and treated myself to the Danfoss Link CC together with the living connect rad valves & Boiler relay. I also fitted an in-line relay to my hot water controls so everything is timed from the controller. All in all I am well impressed with the system. All the rooms have different set back times, set up from the central controller. I experimented a bit as the default setting was for every trv, when demanding heat, to flash up the boiler. I have knocked it down to just a few critical rooms. TVR's are the the neatest on the market some of which can be controlled by other Z-Wave equipment. I liked the Controller so much I decided to go for it. Can't understand Danfoss' reluctance to support the product in the uk. They know it has a boiler interlock because the unit is manufactured here. I did ask them if they were waiting for an upgrade to an opentherm interlock similar to the one with honeywell evohome, but they steadfastly refuse to answer any questions, with the comment "we don’t currently support this in the UK".

 

[happyflyer]

Tiptop,

Why should they support the UK, the domestic market is stuck with it's head in the sand with four quid TRVs, they must sell 100,000s a year, as gas runs out and the price continues to rise eventually people will start to think about saving energy, full house control is the only way to save energy, every room timed and temperature controlled, simplezzzz, Ermi is on is way to the future with zoning, a bit sort of first principles but he has seen the light, but would he do that for a custard, would the custard have the space, Jodrell Bank taking over one of your bedrooms to control the room temps, I am not knocking him for trying at least he's making an effort. I have said before there are a number of whole house system out there but the UK domestic market on energy saving is tosh, government don't go far enough with the 2 zone brain dead token gesture idea. Hell of a good job commercial see energy in a different light

 

[happyflyer]

This is one for Ermi only not in plastic, I spend all my days now snagging other peoples work (easy hey) this is a job like Ermi has done at home only on a commercial, see if you can spot the mistakes.

 

[Ermintrude]

DHW DCW labelled incorrectly as return shown as DCW. No back flow protection that I can see. Flue not pointed, gas pipework under supported and asking for damage. Drain off in a considerate location. No Aav??

LLH well supported with no Aav

Couldn't see where system water coming from?
Manifold looked ok? Was bypass facing right way? Drain off on primary side of LLH missing?

Around twin head looked messy. Frost control?

Gas sleeve not pointed or sealed, earth? Supply looks a bit narrow for 100kw?

Probably missed all sorts.

 

[TomLane]

DHW DCW labelled incorrectly as return shown as DCW. No back flow protection that I can see. Flue not pointed, gas pipework under supported and asking for damage. Drain off in a considerate location. No Aav??

LLH well supported with no Aav

Couldn't see where system water coming from?
Manifold looked ok? Was bypass facing right way? Drain off on primary side of LLH missing?

Around twin head looked messy. Frost control?

Gas sleeve not pointed or sealed, earth? Supply looks a bit narrow for 100kw?

Probably missed all sorts.

Top effort of analysis for a Sunday morning!

Fair play!

There was me thinking that the magnolia walls looked like they could do with a lick of paint!

 

[happyflyer]

DHW DCW labelled incorrectly as return shown as DCW. No back flow protection that I can see. Flue not pointed, gas pipework under supported and asking for damage. Drain off in a considerate location. No Aav??

LLH well supported with no Aav

Couldn't see where system water coming from?
Manifold looked ok? Was bypass facing right way? Drain off on primary side of LLH missing?

Around twin head looked messy. Frost control?

Gas sleeve not pointed or sealed, earth? Supply looks a bit narrow for 100kw?

Probably missed all sorts.

Jeez Ermi,

Even I didn't spot any of them, you got the job, when do you want to start, minimum wage OK...:crowngrin:

 

[happyflyer]

Ermi,

Look at the photo of the boiler and lets start at the boiler and discuss the merits of fitting a shut off valve on the flow and return directly under the boiler, have you ever seen this on the domestic scene. BTW the expansion vessel is not inside the boiler case, you could have also assumed that looking and the size of the system

Tony

 

[Leo21]

All these extra controls are well and good, but will the custs want to pay the extra? I don't think so. Then there's the reliability which is carp on most of these wireless products.

 

[happyflyer]

All these extra controls are well and good, but will the custs want to pay the extra? I don't think so. Then there's the reliability which is carp on most of these wireless products.

No Leo Custard won't want to pay until Custard can't pay gas bill, I am not advocating wireless

 

[Ermintrude]

Got no choice if it's a big house. Part L.

Re expansion ; wood for the trees didn't see big red elephant in room. If valves full bore I always fit as make repairs or boiler change easier. If in a cascade I always fit trimming valve on outside two just to help set up. ( but that's over 90kw so I never done anything over 75, honest )

Is pump internal? No magnetic filter? Adey industrial ones are nice

 

[happyflyer]

Ermi,

No magfilter no copper in system all steel, could have still fitted one, big red elephant on other side of room, point was would you fit two HAND operated valves one on flow and return directly under boiler, if you want to isolate the boiler look at the other photo, it would take you 30 seconds to close all the zone valve, drop the pressure in the boiler by lifting the PRV and no water in boiler, valves not needed and no one could accidentally turn them off when boiler running, a mere point and a waste of money.

 

[Ermintrude]

Never dump by prv! The fkr never reseals, drain off at lowest point it's a.basic! Perhaps some lock Sheilds then? Or ones that require a hex key. But who's going in the plant room? Care taker? . No provision for balancing on returns either? Assume each cir is more than one emitter?

 

[happyflyer]

Never dump by prv! The fkr never reseals, drain off at lowest point it's a.basic! Perhaps some lock Sheilds then? Or ones that require a hex key. But who's going in the plant room? Care taker? . No provision for balancing on returns either? Assume each cir is more than one emitter?

Ermi,

I was waiting for you to spot the none balancing on the zones, yes and there are about 5 radiators on each zone, that's why I told you to go back to the zone valve photo, BTW all the snagging has been put right now.

The blowing off of the PRV is rather interesting, you say don't do it, how would you go about replacing the air gap on a Megaflow


Tony

 

[Ermintrude]

Blow it off and replace prv. ££££ though!

 

[happyflyer]

Blow it off and replace prv. ££££ though!

Ermi,

The process for replacing the air bubble in a Megaflow entails manually opening the PRV, it's a standard procedure that you may need to do twice a year,
they don't leak after, its good gear.


Tony

 

[Killy Bing]

Ermi,

The process for replacing the air bubble in a Megaflow entails manually opening the PRV, it's a standard procedure that you may need to do twice a year,
they don't leak after, its good gear.


Tony

but that's half way up the cylinder and its not filled with sludge!!!

 

[happyflyer]

but that's half way up the cylinder and its not filled with sludge!!!

What you are both saying is a boiler PRV is only good for one blow off, jeeez what are they ever making them of, plastic

 

[Killy Bing]

And when you get crud in the seating, prv is dripping, do you leave it or change it?

do you charge the customer or reach into your own pocket?

 

[Nostrum]

What do you size the rads on? If upstairs is off then the rads downstairs will be undersized taking into account the unheated space above, or the rads will be sized in that manner and be over sized when upstairs is heated?

 

[Gray0689]

What do you size the rads on? If upstairs is off then the rads downstairs will be undersized taking into account the unheated space above, or the rads will be sized in that manner and be over sized when upstairs is heated?

Size rads on room as normal