should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for money?

[plumbster3456]

would this sort out some of the very bad plumbing I have had to fix over the years?
what do people think i appreciate there are a lot of guys out there working as plumbers who dont have quals and are probably better than some with quals but generally what do people have to say on this.

 

[Bernie2]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Hmm!

All this 4 years hard work to justify being a Plumber is silly. If it goes on length of time and hard work in the game then 65 year olds should be on at least £1000 an hour.
Nearly every construction or engineering job requires hard work Plumbing is no exception.
And good or bad trades people seem to come from all the age groups.

And yes there are those who would like the game to be exclusive, but when you ask why, it's usually a case of trying to look after themselves or fear of competition. The thing is competition keeps you sharp and determine to be good at the game, so you can attract business.

All this makes keeping gas fitting sales exclusive only to registered fitters silly as well, that is unless you can absorb the complete production run of many hundreds of thousands of fittings made each year by the likes of IMI, Yorkshire and the likes.

What do you do with their production workers if they can not sell those goods on the open market, fire them?

It is already against the law for unregistered people to do gas work for cash. That is enough. It is also against the law to installe a dangerous system. Do so and find out what the HSE do?

So the law is already there.

I am not a Maggie Thatcher fan by any means but she said "Easy profit is bad for companies!" and that was from a Tory. What she meant by that, is that companies become lazy and don't look for faster, more economical and efficient ways to do things, so when competition does occur they can't match the other company's on cost so go out of business.

Unfortunately the Japanese did that to the Brit motorcycle industry in the sixties and the low pay countries have been doing it to the UK for many years. We simply do not invest enough in our people, we can not afford to perhaps huddle and protect ourselves. We simply have to learn to compete.

Lets be honest, the Polish Plumbers were good enough to take loads of work off the Brits, perhaps basically on price, but they got it we did not. We have to meet that sort of challenge by being better at the job, more efficient and cost effective. If we don't somebody else will.

 

[WaterTight]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Hi Fuzzy - you seem to be the right person to ask this:

All I have in terms of quals is the Tech Cert Level 2. Achieved 2 years ago. Worked alongside several gas safe guys doing plumbing and heating since then and now do part sub work for a jobbing plumber and part my own jobbing plumbing. I've never really been taught anything on the heating side of things, just bits observed and general basic understanding.

At the moment it's mission-making-ends-meet. In the future when some spare cash might come along, I had dreamed of adding gas work to my box of slowly expanding tricks. To be perefectly honest as much out of interest in the subject and feeling "incomplete" without it as it is for the extra work and money.

With the new qualifications now being rolled out what route do you think I'd have to take and what would it involve? And would my qualification make my route any quicker or be of no relevance whatsoever?

Thanks.

 

[Reg Man]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Its sad that there are not the good oppotunities for proper apprenticeships which there were 35 to 40 years ago. There are so many people who wish to enter this industry. Good news is, my son has just started a proper apprenticeship, College on day release and four days hands on at work.

 

[jase158]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

All this 4 years hard work justifying being a Plumber is silly. If it goes on length of time and hard work in the game then 65 year olds should be on at least £1000 an hour.

so your saying it is ok for these untrained handymen to leave this 65 year old man out of work. My point is that if you have trained to be a qualified person or had many years experience in your role, why should somebody else be allowed to come and take your work. You wouldnt do a doctors work on your friend or do surgery on your friends so why is it that anybody can do plumbing. My point is not that i want to keep the work to myself or that it will be a closed industry. simply it will mean that people who do the work are either experienced or qualified.

What i am talking about is somebody charging stupidly low prices as they live in shared accomadation with 5 of them living in a one bedroom flat. so they do not need to feed there wife and children. These people are stealing my work. so they can afford to charge £5 per hour and are happy living off this, does this mean that i should move my wife and children into a one bedroom flat and get the children to work. so i can charge £5 per hour. After all i am only doing 4 years training thats all i deserve.

Simply put i went to college because i enjoy construction and i enjoy plumbing. i want to be able to support my children and wife and i want to be a good respectable person in the community. So i feel that as a qualified plumber it is your right to be able to charge a fair price to the customer and a fair price to myself.

you have a fair point about new technologies and doing the work faster, But this is another point altogether.

 

[jase158]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

But then there is the other point, which nobody has brought up yet. If the customers are willing to pay these cowboys, then they are not the customers we are looking for, these sort of people dont pay, take ages to pay and complain about none existing problems to get the price reduced

 

[jase158]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

the other point you brought up bernie 2 is that yorkshire fittings and the like will have to sack staff, well no, because if all plumbers fitted BS standard fittings instead of cheap remakes then yorkshire would actually benefit.

I do believe that fittings should be only sold to gas engineers, as why would anybody else need a boiler if they are not gas safe registered, are you going to use it as an ornament in the garden or use it as a foot rest??????
only problem with this is the amount plumbers will add ontop of the sale price?

have you seen this video, [video=youtube;EPSMBDQ5XwU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPSMBDQ5XwU[/video]

 

[Bernie2]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Hi! jase158,

Why do some people suppose just because they have done a college course they have worked hard and can then sit back and make a good living?

Many Plumbers spent years at the game and never had a decent wage.

It was in the past extremely difficult to become a Plumber if you had not served your time as a teenager.
The older person was usually condemned to be a labourer on low pay for the rest of their working life, despite the fact they may very well have worked just as hard at their job as any teenager and perhaps for longer. It seems unfair to deny thenm the chance to make a living in Plumbing.

Polish Plumbers may be rough, but it seems, it was Brit company's that hired them instead of our own Plumbers, because we charged to much. I don't think the idea that all Polish Plumber are no good is correct either. The company's who bid for contracts usually know certain standards of workmanship have to be observed, so unless they are silly they are hardly likely to take on people they thought where incompetent.

If you restrict the sale of gas fittings to just Gas Safe people then the cost to company's of making limited runs of what would become specialist fittings would be fantastically high. Then their selling on price to the specialists would be fantastic as well. And eventually the customer would have to pay. That is not fair.

As I have said the laws already exist to stop cowboys if you want more inspectors then we should pay Gas Safe to supply them.

And as you probably know most gas fittings swap over with Plumbing fittings anyway, so it would be hard to restrict supply and people could simply import them off the internet anyway.

Incidentally its not against the gas regs to do your own gas work in your own home if it meets the required standards and your competent to do so. So the DIY market is still big.

But if you are talking restricting appliances to Gas Safe people only, then that would be acceptable if Gas Safe registered people are not allowed to add any mark up and the customer could choose from the manufactures price's.

In short the customer gets to choose what they want at the price they want to pay.

 

[plumbster3456]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Hi! jase158,

Why do some people suppose just because they have done a college course they have worked hard and can then sit back and make a good living?

Many Plumbers spent years at the game and never had a decent wage.

It was in the past extremely difficult to become a Plumber if you had not served your time as a teenager.
The older person was usually condemned to be a labourer on low pay for the rest of their working life, despite the fact they may very well have worked just as hard at their job as any teenager and perhaps for longer. It seems unfair to deny thenm the chance to make a living in Plumbing.

Polish Plumbers may be rough, but it seems, it was Brit company's that hired them instead of our own Plumbers, because we charged to much. I don't think the idea that all Polish Plumber are no good is correct either. The company's who bid for contracts usually know certain standards of workmanship have to be observed, so unless they are silly they are hardly likely to take on people they thought where incompetent.

If you restrict the sale of gas fittings to just Gas Safe people then the cost to company's of making limited runs of what would become specialist fittings would be fantastically high. Then their selling on price to the specialists would be fantastic as well. And eventually the customer would have to pay. That is not fair.

As I have said the laws already exist to stop cowboys if you want more inspectors then we should pay Gas Safe to supply them.

And as you probably know most gas fittings swap over with Plumbing fittings anyway, so it would be hard to restrict supply and people could simply import them off the internet anyway.

Incidentally its not against the gas regs to do your own gas work in your own home if it meets the required standards and your competent to do so. So the DIY market is still big.

But if you are talking restricting appliances to Gas Safe people only, then that would be acceptable if Gas Safe registered people are not allowed to add any mark up and the customer could choose from the manufactures price's.

In short the customer gets to choose what they want at the price they want to pay.

give yourself a rest please the customer this the customer that blah blah blah ssssshhhhhhhh.
I get everything from the merchants ,part centre etc less than half the price a customer would pay so even if I double the price I have paid I am still making a healthy profit and they are not paying more so there mr know it all.
I think bernie has slept with a plumber now he thinks he is one 3 week course and all it is ripping right out you bernie

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Hi Fuzzy - you seem to be the right person to ask this:

All I have in terms of quals is the Tech Cert Level 2. Achieved 2 years ago. Worked alongside several gas safe guys doing plumbing and heating since then and now do part sub work for a jobbing plumber and part my own jobbing plumbing. I've never really been taught anything on the heating side of things, just bits observed and general basic understanding.

At the moment it's mission-making-ends-meet. In the future when some spare cash might come along, I had dreamed of adding gas work to my box of slowly expanding tricks. To be perefectly honest as much out of interest in the subject and feeling "incomplete" without it as it is for the extra work and money.

With the new qualifications now being rolled out what route do you think I'd have to take and what would it involve? And would my qualification make my route any quicker or be of no relevance whatsoever?

Thanks.

You should be able to still upgrade tour tech certs to the new diploma but there may be some cross over that needs completing, you may find yourself in a stronger position than those who have already got their NVQs. As for gas safe you need to wait or find an opportunity to work with GSRinstallers and build up evidence, take it from there and good luck

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

why shouldnt the trade require 4 year apprenticeships to be qualified?

 

[WaterTight]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

thanks fuzzy

 

[MattyW]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Definetely should, or should have to declare it, I was shocked when I started my course and found out you needed no qualification to work as a plumber. You need to have a food certificate if you work in that industry so why not one for drinking water, not to mention if you get waste pipes wrong in someones house.

 

[Tong]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

This is an interesting thread but seems to not lead anywhere .. successive governments have always rejected calls by CIPHE and others for compulsory registration of plumbers and the only reasoning is that its too hard or too costly or some other political excuse?? In Australia particularly Victoria they have a system where all plumbers are licenced at differing levels contractor, tradesman etc. a contractor can certify work for his employees .. every job over $500 has to be registered with the commission and the night before logged in the database by phone or computer i.e rough-in, 2nd fix etc .. a percentage (I think 5%) of these jobs are selected by the computer for inspection on the day so nobody knows where or when till the inspector arrives .. the plumber doesn't have to be there as the inspector will put stickers green or RED!!! ..... Now that would be something to see in GB!
I do know as another poster mentioned that SNIPEF in Scotland & NI have started their own registration scheme (good for them) and it has some support from the Scottish parliament who seem to be less bogged down with silly burocrats who wouldn't know s**t from cheese!

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

why do we need more legislation? isnt having a plumbing qual registration in itself?

 

[Bernie2]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Hmm!

A few years ago the JIB wanted only graded Plumbers registered with them to be allowed to do Plumbing work?

The government never allowed it.

Most new start self employed Plumbers without a qualifying work record would say no to that.

Being a retired Technical JIB Plumber I could of course probably say yes to it. But that is only me being self interested, it may not be good for the customers of the industry who without we would have no industry and all be on the dole. So lets be fare to them.

 

[Reg Man]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Reulations are only effective if the relevant bodies enforce them. Unfortunately this does not happen enough. We need consumer bodies in between to follow up on complaints. The HSE, Trading standards and envoiromental health have not got the resource to follow up everything that goes wrong. Qualifications for a tradesman are not enough, because all to often, some of these qualified people ignor what they know and do a bad job.

 

[ToolGuy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

From a tradesman's point of view, yes require lots of certificates. From a customers view, no, just have a way to prove good quality of tidy work at reasonable price. So maybe have a website which lists all plumbers and all jobs done by them with customer comments so a new potential customer can make an informed choice.


Every craft, profession, is in the same situation. Photographers have very high costs, training yet everyone thinks they can take a photo. Writers learn their craft but are undercut by others writing. University lecturers may have done 12 years of training yet earn less than a plumber.


No, more legislation and restrictions isn't the way. Educate the customer to want a good job and show then that you can do that good job by word of mouth referrals. Some people simply won't be able to afford an expensive qualified person (plumber, electrician, gas fitter, window installer) so should they be forced to go without?

 

[coradia]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Being a Gas safe registered Heating Engineer and seeing how expensive it is to be gas safe registered and hard we are policed. To bring in a seperate body to monitor plumbers would be a nightmare, what about the guy who can turn his hand to anything like a Handyman and earns a living doing odd jobs and can quite easily plumb a washing machine in or change a tap, would that mean that even if he did 3 or 4 "plumbing jobs" a year he would need a license? end result is really creating another body and making up jobs that the plumbers pay for and i think it is enough that i should pay for my gas safe without then paying for the plumbing aspect. End result is that we charge more and the consumer funds yet another government department i can see Corgi now rubbing their hands waiting in the wings.

 

[tamz]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

I like the Australia setup thing. It sounds easily enough run to me. Those who do their work right have nothing to fear.

Regulation would not stop DIY work.
I don't know anything about it, but i bet in Australia there is still lots of DIY work done.

When i started working in the 70's, we had water officers going around the district checking things and issuing notices as they had done for years before. Never seen one for maybe 20 years now and i honestly don't know if there is such a position any more. Such is progress.

What i do know is there needs to be some form of regulation here. As Reg man said. Bad plumbing is not killing anyone (well not directly) so nothing will be done!

 

[markfxy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

the government is already doing something similar with renewables although its not law to be MCS registered the customer won't be able to claim rhi without the installer and the equipment being MCS registered when the rhi comes into force next april it will be a closed shop unless your'e registered. I think it's a good idea but it would be to difficult and epensive to police plumbing installations.

 

[Bernie2]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

I agree with Tamz, in the 60's water inspectors where everywhere, most where old tradesman, in point I think they all where and you could not kid them. If the job was crap they told you so.

The thing is they where usually paid for by the local council but with council cut backs they no longer as far as I know exist, so no quality control checks are carried out on anything anymore, its all customer beware and no real quality check for the customers.

I looked at a boiler for someone the other day as it was loosing pressure. My ACS and registration having run out now being retired, I could only look and advise, not touch.

Anyway it was a 10 year old Glow Worm with a loose front none combustion chamber cover on it. I took it off refilled the system and spotted the leak right away. It was on the pump hose, the jubilee clip had dug into the hose to the point it was nearly right through.

So they called the maintenance company out, who came on three separate occasions to try and stop the leak, they never, instead they recommended a new boiler.

The renewal of the hose and parts should have come to about £12 for the hose and whatever labour charges but possible an hour and a half's work I would say about £60 worth of work, instead the customer is now facing a £2,500 bill and knowing no better they have said yes.

Its this kind of what appears aggressive selling I don't like in the game and why we need somebody to over see this quality side, at the moment its all "If you don't like it, go elsewhere, plenty who will pay"

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

not sure how registration would stop that happening, possibly make it worse!

 

[marsaday]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

If plumbing is to be regulated in this way, then what about brikies, joiners, window fitters, the list goes on.

Heating engineers and sparkies i can see why they need more regulation. But regulation just forces up costs and we dont need that. it would be good if you are a plumber, but not the general public. plus you will still get crap plumbers doing crap work.

 

[Tong]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

I think what is being forgotten is the contribution to public health good plumbing actually makes.. and the fact that bad plumbing can kill people as evidenced in Hong Kong during the SARS outbreak along with legionella etc. etc. I am not so naieve as to believe that regulation and control can prevent that entirely but the danger from bad plumbing can be just as present as that from bad gas work. The problem is it's not so apparent and who's to say that the sore throats and less serious viruses are not potentialy spread by bad sanitation and contaminated water supply.

 

[shaunhighcock]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Im not qualified but i always do an excellent job never had an unhappy customer, I'm not a plumber for the money but because I enjoy it so i think that makes a big difference!!

 

[tamz]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

The work may look the part and the customer be pleased but how do you know you are doing it correctly, using the correct materials (because you can buy it don't mean you can legally fit it) and fitting to standard?
If you have never been trained or no one has ever checked it you won't know and your customers know even less.

 

[Reg Man]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Pleased you have satisfied customers, but like Tamz says. Do you understand all of the regulations? Do you know the reqirements and have they been applied.

 

[coradia]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

haha what makes one qualified in plumbing? would that be the 4 or 5 years apprenticeship and the years gained working or would that be the quick route to qualifications with 5 day courses?

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

haha what makes one qualified in plumbing? would that be the 4 or 5 years apprenticeship and the years gained working or would that be the quick route to qualifications with 5 day courses?

the recognised qualification for plumbers NVQ2 minimum for basic or NVQ3 for adavnced, simple

 

[plumbster3456]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

the recognised qualification for plumbers NVQ2 minimum for basic or NVQ3 for adavnced, simple

yes and along with the 4 or 5 years apprenticeship without this if it has only taken you for instance to do either above in 6 weeks not qualified even with certificates.
you must be jib registered to be industry recognised as qualified.
Try getting a job with even the full nvq or svq without experience NO CHANCE.