Discuss Permanent Pilot Light - Safety Issue in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net

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Chris-Newcastle

I wonder if anyone could give me some advice.
I recently had my home gas boiler serviced and this was carried out satisfactorily as far as I know.
(I was at work but my wife was present).
The boiler is in the kitchen and my wife asked the men to check for any gas leaks in the kitchen as she thought she may have smelt gas in the past near the hob.
The gas fitters said they had detected a major leak and then identified it as coming from the fire in the living room.
So, they disconnected the fire and put a warning sticker on it.
However what they did not realise is that the fire is old and has a permanent pilot light (not controlled by a thermocouple) and so if the gas is turned off at the mains then when it is turned on again the fire’s pilot light must be either turned off or re-lit.
I have asked the firm to reconnect the fire as it is not actually faulty. It is just old (Thorn Meridian-N gas fire).
I also asked them to do this free of charge because in my opinion they should have realised that the supposed leak was just the fire’s pilot light (which is very easily accessible) and not actually a fault.
They have declined to come back saying the fire is dangerous. I understand the point they are making but we have had this fire for many years without a problem.
I probably will replace it soon. I can operate it with the pilot light turned off if that is necessary for safety.
But, I still think that as Gas Safe registered fitters they should have realised that the fire was not faulty and so just have re-lit the pilot light.
Could you give me your opinion on this case ?
Thanks very much for your time.
 
So are the gas engineers saying that the pilot blew out and this resulted in gas escaping into the room which is why you could smell gas? Or did they find another gas escape on the fire?
 
Hi Darryl - No the fire's pilot went out when they turned the gas off at the mains to do a leak test.
We've never smelt gas in the living room. It was just that my wife thought she had smelt gas in the kitchen before, but I never have.
I wish she hadn't asked them to do the leak test !
The gas escape that they thought they had found was actually the fire's pilot light - it's got no thermocouple to turn off the gas so the valve stays open unless you manually close it.
I know this could be considered dangerous but it is how the fire was designed.
 
The fire would be classed as NTCS (not to current standards), as long as it passes all of the safety checks, then it is fine to use. The fire is old, and as an engineer I would ensure the customer was aware of the lack of safety devices and recommend a new one.

If the fire is not used often and has an inline gas tap (which I would hope it should have) to isolate the gas supply to the fire, I would isolate it and only open when wanting to use it as you are otherwise wasting gas with the permanent pilot, and in the event of the pilot blowing out it would let gas escape into the room.

Get them back to reconnect the fire, it is not unsafe, it is just NTCS due to lack of safety device. Just ensure it has a gas tap before the burner to isolate the gas supply and enable testing of the gas pipework for leaks.
 
Thanks for the advice. There isn't an easily operable inline gas tap to the fire as a whole - you have to use a screwdriver to isolate the gas supply to the fire.
But the pilot does have its own tap which is easily accessible from the front of the fire.
We do use the fire only occasionally so if I turn the pilot tap off (and in future just light the fire with a match) then there would be no 'leak'.
Do you think this would be sufficient - i.e. leave the gas supply to the fire turned on but have the pilot burner valve turned permanently off ?
 
As long as there is an isolation to the burner I don't see this as a problem. The design obviously allows for the isolation of gas to the burner, but due to its age it does not incorporate a flame safety device.

The burner can be isolated and the gas tested, which is what they should of done.

Saying all of that, I would still consider updating the fire as I personally would not use a fire without a FSD, but that does not mean you are not allowed to.

Is this your fire?

http://www.partsarena.co.uk/baxi/System/DATA/Dx/DS1/user/4070/U02-4070/U02-4070.htm
 
So in essence you're saying you'd be quite happy to go leave your home with the pilot lit on your fire with no safety device? What if it blows out, the room fills with gas (The explosive limit of NG is 5-15%) and you return when it's dark, open the door and switch the light on and get a spark? If I was in the engineers situation, I would have requested your permission to cap off the fire and issue an 'At risk' notice. If permission was refused, it would be noted on the service record which you would be requested to read and sign.
 
Hi Darryl,
Yes - that is my fire - it's in a room that isn't used much.
I do intend to replace it at some point but because someone has built a brick mantlepiece around it, it will be a little awkward to replace at short notice - the only fire I have seen with similar dimensions is the Robinson Willey Firegem. Most other outset fires are to high or too wide for the mantlepiece.
 
Reply to leelister6:
Hi, I understand your point about the danger. I can leave the pilot tap within the fire turned permanently off as the room is only used now and then.
But I do think that the gas fitters actions were OTT. It wasn't necessary to disconnect the fire and cap it off. They only needed to turn off the pilot tap (easily accessible from the front of the fire)
as this was the source of the supposed 'leak'.
They took the decision to isolate the gas supply at the mains and this is why the pilot went out.
I think that as gas safe trained people they should have been able to work this out.
 
id be happy to have an old fire without a thermocouple and leave the pilot lit.. what if im going out ? i wouldnt worry because it would take a long time for a pilot to fill a room full of gas.. maybe if i was on holiday i'd make sure all the gas is off, just how i make sure most of the electric is off too..
 
id be happy to have an old fire without a thermocouple and leave the pilot lit.. what if im going out ? i wouldnt worry because it would take a long time for a pilot to fill a room full of gas.. maybe if i was on holiday i'd make sure all the gas is off, just how i make sure most of the electric is off too..

It would take an average room (50Cu.M) approx 5 days to reach the explosive limit (5%) for NG from a pilot burning 750 Btu/hr (figures from internet so not sure how reliable!) Not very long in my opinion, I certainly wouldn't think to turn my gas off if I was just going away for a week. (Never thought about this till this thread!) Just my opinion, but I wouldn't be happy leaving that situation without some action on my part, even if it's just covering signature
 
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Reply to leelister6:
Hi, I understand your point about the danger. I can leave the pilot tap within the fire turned permanently off as the room is only used now and then.
But I do think that the gas fitters actions were OTT. It wasn't necessary to disconnect the fire and cap it off. They only needed to turn off the pilot tap (easily accessible from the front of the fire)
as this was the source of the supposed 'leak'.
They took the decision to isolate the gas supply at the mains and this is why the pilot went out.
I think that as gas safe trained people they should have been able to work this out.

Just because someone is gas safe reg. it doesn't mean they know everything about every appliance, this job is a massive learning curve. I for one wasn't aware that there were gas fires still out there without F.S.D's and if I found that someone I knew had one I would be strongly recommending they get rid! Will be interesting to see some of the more experienced gas fitter's opinions on here
 
There are still a few of those thorn fires out there, you can still get the pilot "spring" . Its easy to turn it off and use a spark gun to light the fire
 
So in essence you're saying you'd be quite happy to go leave your home with the pilot lit on your fire with no safety device? What if it blows out, the room fills with gas (The explosive limit of NG is 5-15%) and you return when it's dark, open the door and switch the light on and get a spark? If I was in the engineers situation, I would have requested your permission to cap off the fire and issue an 'At risk' notice. If permission was refused, it would be noted on the service record which you would be requested to read and sign.

Just because something does not seem right or ok does not always mean that it is incorrect. I can see where you are coming from but you need to be careful. If you go around issuing 'at risk' notices to every gas appliance that does not have a FSD you could soon find yourself with several upset customers.

There was a case once of an engineer who capped of an appliance because of this very situation. The customer was a lawyer and upset by his actions and took him to court and won the case.

Also, as I am sure you are aware, 'at risk' only requires the appliance to be turned off, not capped.

And, consider this, would you cap off every cooker or hob you came across that did not have a thermocouple? same principle and there are loads of cookers without them. All NTCS.
 
Quite simply the engineers should have checked the fire & turned off the pilot issolation screw, then pressure tested the installation.

1. They were in a rush & just took it as a leak.
Or
2. Inexperienced.

They should definately reconnect it for you, but did act reasponsibly & safely.

We all live & learn.
 
Just because something does not seem right or ok does not always mean that it is incorrect. I can see where you are coming from but you need to be careful. If you go around issuing 'at risk' notices to every gas appliance that does not have a FSD you could soon find yourself with several upset customers.

There was a case once of an engineer who capped of an appliance because of this very situation. The customer was a lawyer and upset by his actions and took him to court and won the case.

Also, as I am sure you are aware, 'at risk' only requires the appliance to be turned off, not capped.

And, consider this, would you cap off every cooker or hob you came across that did not have a thermocouple? same principle and there are loads of cookers without them. All NTCS.

Did I write CAPPED off?! My bad :mad:
 
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???????? Not sure why you are replying with caps, have I offended you in some way? And yes you stated you would cap it off with the customers permission and issue an 'at risk notice'
 
Hi Chris,
If you're concerned about a build up of gas, which IMHO is extremely unlikely, just turn the pilot isolation tap off. They still haven't done anything about your smell in the kitchen by the sounds of it. I'd agree they were well OTT. It happens more times than you'll believe. TRANSCO are good at doing exactly the same.......! Some of us, however, remember the Meridians with fondness and they throw out a load of heat!!!
 
If the fire is operating safely, the way it was designed, then you are well within your rights to have the fire reconnected and I would press them on this.
Just because the regs are updated does not automatically mean an appliance becomes dangerous or 'At Risk' because it does not comply to these new updates. The appliance is 'not to current standards'.
I would be weary of it myself, but as long as you are aware of the potential dangers involved with the appliance then that is your right to keep using it.
 
Replying with caps cos I didn't realise I put CAPPED off when I should have put TURNED off. Not offended at all, thanks for pointing it out.
 
So in essence you're saying you'd be quite happy to go leave your home with the pilot lit on your fire with no safety device? What if it blows out, the room fills with gas (The explosive limit of NG is 5-15%) and you return when it's dark, open the door and switch the light on and get a spark? If I was in the engineers situation, I would have requested your permission to cap off the fire and issue an 'At risk' notice. If permission was refused, it would be noted on the service record which you would be requested to read and sign.

there is a fine line between giving the customer good technical advice and advising the fire could/should be renewed,BUT it is not AR it is fit for purpose as per design and can be left running if the customer wants it left on,
 
i have to agree,just because the technologlys old and has no fsd does not make it dangerous,its working as designed you can not id or ar a appliance just because you think the safety designs not as safe as it could be,it was considered ok when designed ,so you adhere to mi,s
 
Permanent pilots are inefficient and that is all they will ever be! You will never be able to blow up a house, flat or otherwise unless it was devout of ventilation!

Well maybe a Wendy house! ............ REALLY SMALL ONE!
 
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Can I say 'bolloks' on this forum without being excluded?

well done so!

Permanent pilots are inefficient and that is all they will ever be! You will never be able to blow up a house, flat or otherwise unless it was devout of ventilation!

Well maybe a Wendy house! ............ REALLY SMALL ONE!

This sounds like a job for mythbusters!!
 
Permanent pilots are inefficient and that is all they will ever be! You will never be able to blow up a house, flat or otherwise unless it was devout of ventilation!

Well maybe a Wendy house! ............ REALLY SMALL ONE!

OMG my pal is called wendy and she has a house, i'm going round tomorrow to see if she has a gas fire
 
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seen the news earlier. in america they are raving about shale gas, the clip says it is getting into the water supply and it showed people lighting the water as it came out the tap, looked excellant
 
seen the news earlier. in america they are raving about shale gas, the clip says it is getting into the water supply and it showed people lighting the water as it came out the tap, looked excellant

natural ,cheap hot and cold running water !

Do the taps come with room ventilation requirements
 
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There are real concern over shale gas , and there are inquiries under way . It is obtained by hydraulically fracturing (at about 145000psi ) the rock . The problem is the fluid used to fracture the rock contains hydrochloric acid, biocide and polycrylamide which is then in the water supply
There are test holes for this in the UK , Bowland and Preston
 
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most gas fitters under the age of forty havent seen many appliances with pilots so it an understandable mistake which they should put right as to pilots being dangerous we used to have several standing pilots in our old kitchen the one on the grill saved us having to put the light on at night
oh what fun we would have when the shilling run out especialy getting the fridge one to light had to put a plate with hole in over the flue and wait till gas filled the flue tube then put a match to it
 
most gas fitters under the age of forty havent seen many appliances with pilots so it an understandable mistake which they should put right as to pilots being dangerous we used to have several standing pilots in our old kitchen the one on the grill saved us having to put the light on at night
oh what fun we would have when the shilling run out especialy getting the fridge one to light had to put a plate with hole in over the flue and wait till gas filled the flue tube then put a match to it


LOL showing some age there mate. Never seen a gas fridge...

Would scrap the fire and buy a new one. Of if you cant afford it right now i would remove/cap off and wait. I know it was ok when installed but too easy for somthing to happen if ask me.
 
pilots should not blow out in the wind, get your boiler looked at
 
LOL showing some age there mate. Never seen a gas fridge...

Would scrap the fire and buy a new one. Of if you cant afford it right now i would remove/cap off and wait. I know it was ok when installed but too easy for somthing to happen if ask me.
its only ncs, ar or id is a different matter
 
Thanks to everyone for the advice.
The firm is still flatly refusing to re-attend and reconnect the fire so I've had to register a complaint with Gas Safe.
Does anyone know what powers Gas Safe has or could I end up having to go to court ?
 
Thanks to everyone for the advice.
The firm is still flatly refusing to re-attend and reconnect the fire so I've had to register a complaint with Gas Safe.
Does anyone know what powers Gas Safe has or could I end up having to go to court ?

Im not sure how Gas Safe will deal with your complaint, it sounds to me like the engineers that attended your property do not fully understand how to deal with the situation and hopefully all gas safe needs to do is explain there mistake and it will get sorted.
 
I agree with both parties. If a customer mentions that they smell gas, then this is always cause for concern and investigation. If they have detected a major leak from the fire which has no thermocouple, then surely they would have isolated the fire at the pilot and checked again ( im sumizing they did this) , did they recheck for leaks after the fire was disconnected? especially that you could smell gas near the hob to begin with. I hate turning appliances off, I never go away and leave anyone with no contact or no solutions, and 9 times out of ten Id go back to make sure, specially when a customer is distraught. Darryl is right, NCS on fire, I think they should return to double check. Traci
 
be nice to hear an outcome to this please let us know how gas safe handle this you could get a second opinion from another gas safe installer but its going to cost you
 
I agree with both parties. If a customer mentions that they smell gas, then this is always cause for concern and investigation. If they have detected a major leak from the fire which has no thermocouple, then surely they would have isolated the fire at the pilot and checked again ( im sumizing they did this) , did they recheck for leaks after the fire was disconnected? especially that you could smell gas near the hob to begin with. I hate turning appliances off, I never go away and leave anyone with no contact or no solutions, and 9 times out of ten Id go back to make sure, specially when a customer is distraught. Darryl is right, NCS on fire, I think they should return to double check. Traci

Hi Traci,
No, they did not retest. Informally Gas Safe have told me that the method they used in doing the tightness test was faulty because they did not look at which appliances were connected before doing the test. When the test showed up the fire as supposedly leaking they did not investigate it but just immediately capped it off and put an 'ID' label on it. When I later told them that the fire had an uncontrolled pilot light they reacted with surprise and
then got very defensive saying that a fire without an FSD is dangerous and must stay unconnected. In our last conversation they said the same thing but then said that they didn't care if I got someone else to reconnect it.
This I think shows that their concern is not for our safety but just for their own stubborn refusal to admit that they have made a mistake.
 
Welcome to our world Chris,

Gas safe are more concerned with covering their own backs than actually resolving issues. A fire without an FSD is NCS, but there is no reason why it can't stay connected.

You can try the HSE and see what they say if this has really annoyed you. Or, call gas safe back and tell them you want it in writing that in their opinion the fire is dangerous, they may change their stance once asked to put it in writing.

I've rang them a couple of times and I've never been satisfied with the outcome.
 
Hi Darryl - Sorry my post must have been rushed - it wasn't Gas Safe who said the fire was dangerous - as far as I can tell Gas Safe agree with me. One of Gas Safe's technical advisors said that the method used for the tightness test was faulty, and that the engineers should have closed the pilot light first and after failing to do this, they should have retested when I made them aware of the issue.
It was the engineers who got defensive and won't admit their mistake.
 
Oh, I see. So what have Gas safe said they are going to do about it then?
 
Oh, I see. So what have Gas safe said they are going to do about it then?
I only submitted the complaint yesterday so I'm waiting to see what happens.
They did say they are only concerned with safety and that I might have to go to trading standards about this firm.
 
I only submitted the complaint yesterday so I'm waiting to see what happens.
They did say they are only concerned with safety and that I might have to go to trading standards about this firm.

If you get someone else in for a second opinion, they may say the same as the other firm! There doesn't appear to be anything in 'unsafe situations procedures' regarding appliances without an F.S.D. http://www.User PlumbersForums.net ... Edition 6 - publication web version V1 1.pdf
If you could get it in writing from Gas safe (an email) that the appliance is safe to use if all the other checks have been carried out correctly then you can show it to any engineer and he can verify before signing his life away! If anyone can find an answer to this in any regs etc (which at the end of the day, we have to follow to the letter) then post it on here and we can all move on!
 
If you get someone else in for a second opinion, they may say the same as the other firm! There doesn't appear to be anything in 'unsafe situations procedures' regarding appliances without an F.S.D. http://www.User PlumbersForums.net ... Edition 6 - publication web version V1 1.pdf
If you could get it in writing from Gas safe (an email) that the appliance is safe to use if all the other checks have been carried out correctly then you can show it to any engineer and he can verify before signing his life away! If anyone can find an answer to this in any regs etc (which at the end of the day, we have to follow to the letter) then post it on here and we can all move on!
There really is no grey area here. If the appliance, by design, operates without an FSD then it is NCS. No if's nor buts. If all other safety checks are good it perfectly safe to use. I dont like to say the engineer is incompetent as he/she appears to be erring on side of safety, but lack of knowledge of the regs/standards is itself incompetent and they have caused at least one member the public a lot of needless stress and hassle.
 
There really is no grey area here. If the appliance, by design, operates without an FSD then it is NCS. No if's nor buts. If all other safety checks are good it perfectly safe to use. I dont like to say the engineer is incompetent as he/she appears to be erring on side of safety, but lack of knowledge of the regs/standards is itself incompetent and they have caused at least one member the public a lot of needless stress and hassle.

It's good to find someone on here who knows everything!!:p
 
you cant know everything, but you can ask questions if you are unsure. Ie. phone gas safe, read your books, dare i say it.... phone a friend.

i knew everything once, but i forgot to write it down. ;)
 
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