Permanent Pilot Light - Safety Issue

[Chris-Newcastle]

I wonder if anyone could give me some advice.
I recently had my home gas boiler serviced and this was carried out satisfactorily as far as I know.
(I was at work but my wife was present).
The boiler is in the kitchen and my wife asked the men to check for any gas leaks in the kitchen as she thought she may have smelt gas in the past near the hob.
The gas fitters said they had detected a major leak and then identified it as coming from the fire in the living room.
So, they disconnected the fire and put a warning sticker on it.
However what they did not realise is that the fire is old and has a permanent pilot light (not controlled by a thermocouple) and so if the gas is turned off at the mains then when it is turned on again the fire’s pilot light must be either turned off or re-lit.
I have asked the firm to reconnect the fire as it is not actually faulty. It is just old (Thorn Meridian-N gas fire).
I also asked them to do this free of charge because in my opinion they should have realised that the supposed leak was just the fire’s pilot light (which is very easily accessible) and not actually a fault.
They have declined to come back saying the fire is dangerous. I understand the point they are making but we have had this fire for many years without a problem.
I probably will replace it soon. I can operate it with the pilot light turned off if that is necessary for safety.
But, I still think that as Gas Safe registered fitters they should have realised that the fire was not faulty and so just have re-lit the pilot light.
Could you give me your opinion on this case ?
Thanks very much for your time.

 

[Blake]

So are the gas engineers saying that the pilot blew out and this resulted in gas escaping into the room which is why you could smell gas? Or did they find another gas escape on the fire?

 

[Chris-Newcastle]

Hi Darryl - No the fire's pilot went out when they turned the gas off at the mains to do a leak test.
We've never smelt gas in the living room. It was just that my wife thought she had smelt gas in the kitchen before, but I never have.
I wish she hadn't asked them to do the leak test !
The gas escape that they thought they had found was actually the fire's pilot light - it's got no thermocouple to turn off the gas so the valve stays open unless you manually close it.
I know this could be considered dangerous but it is how the fire was designed.

 

[Blake]

The fire would be classed as NTCS (not to current standards), as long as it passes all of the safety checks, then it is fine to use. The fire is old, and as an engineer I would ensure the customer was aware of the lack of safety devices and recommend a new one.

If the fire is not used often and has an inline gas tap (which I would hope it should have) to isolate the gas supply to the fire, I would isolate it and only open when wanting to use it as you are otherwise wasting gas with the permanent pilot, and in the event of the pilot blowing out it would let gas escape into the room.

Get them back to reconnect the fire, it is not unsafe, it is just NTCS due to lack of safety device. Just ensure it has a gas tap before the burner to isolate the gas supply and enable testing of the gas pipework for leaks.

 

[Chris-Newcastle]

Thanks for the advice. There isn't an easily operable inline gas tap to the fire as a whole - you have to use a screwdriver to isolate the gas supply to the fire.
But the pilot does have its own tap which is easily accessible from the front of the fire.
We do use the fire only occasionally so if I turn the pilot tap off (and in future just light the fire with a match) then there would be no 'leak'.
Do you think this would be sufficient - i.e. leave the gas supply to the fire turned on but have the pilot burner valve turned permanently off ?

 

[Blake]

As long as there is an isolation to the burner I don't see this as a problem. The design obviously allows for the isolation of gas to the burner, but due to its age it does not incorporate a flame safety device.

The burner can be isolated and the gas tested, which is what they should of done.

Saying all of that, I would still consider updating the fire as I personally would not use a fire without a FSD, but that does not mean you are not allowed to.

Is this your fire?

http://www.partsarena.co.uk/baxi/System/DATA/Dx/DS1/user/4070/U02-4070/U02-4070.htm

 

[leelister6]

So in essence you're saying you'd be quite happy to go leave your home with the pilot lit on your fire with no safety device? What if it blows out, the room fills with gas (The explosive limit of NG is 5-15%) and you return when it's dark, open the door and switch the light on and get a spark? If I was in the engineers situation, I would have requested your permission to cap off the fire and issue an 'At risk' notice. If permission was refused, it would be noted on the service record which you would be requested to read and sign.

 

[Chris-Newcastle]

Hi Darryl,
Yes - that is my fire - it's in a room that isn't used much.
I do intend to replace it at some point but because someone has built a brick mantlepiece around it, it will be a little awkward to replace at short notice - the only fire I have seen with similar dimensions is the Robinson Willey Firegem. Most other outset fires are to high or too wide for the mantlepiece.

 

[Chris-Newcastle]

Reply to leelister6:
Hi, I understand your point about the danger. I can leave the pilot tap within the fire turned permanently off as the room is only used now and then.
But I do think that the gas fitters actions were OTT. It wasn't necessary to disconnect the fire and cap it off. They only needed to turn off the pilot tap (easily accessible from the front of the fire)
as this was the source of the supposed 'leak'.
They took the decision to isolate the gas supply at the mains and this is why the pilot went out.
I think that as gas safe trained people they should have been able to work this out.

 

[mickie]

id be happy to have an old fire without a thermocouple and leave the pilot lit.. what if im going out ? i wouldnt worry because it would take a long time for a pilot to fill a room full of gas.. maybe if i was on holiday i'd make sure all the gas is off, just how i make sure most of the electric is off too..