Additional CWS linked tank - does the linked one need to be "Bylaw 30'd"?

[realstokebloke]

DIYer here if you can't guess, so all help appreciated in advance.

(Also put this Q in the bylaw bit but more watch this bit.)

To feed a Salamander EPS100 negative head shower pump, I have to add ano 25 gallon CWS tank to the existing one i have in the loft already, so will link them at the bottom.

But does the 'new' tank have to be "Bylaw 30'd" in it's own right (own mains feed & ball cock, air vent over flow etc etc) or can it just link & 'run' off the other one's Bylaw kit as it were plse?

I suspect it (i.e. both) need(s) the full monty in this day and age but thought i'd ask.

Also, does it need to be a 22mm or 28mm link between the tanks at the bottom?

Also, as i feed into & out of the pump, should all the pipework have additional isolator valves? (There are already isolators on all the flexible pump connectors - are they enough or is it good practice to have additional ones too?)

Thanks.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

will be better of to change existing one to large size !

 

[realstokebloke]

will be better of to change existing one to large size !

Thought that but the coffin ones i can get through the hatch are too big for the platform in the loft (& the configuration / cost of adding ano section to the platform isn't worth it) and the non coffin ones are too big for the hatch.

So stuck with adding on really.

 

[monkeywrenchps]

Yes. Both tanks need to be bylaw 30d. Especially if it's to feed a shower. The main reason for this is the growth and spread of bacteria that causes Legionaires disease. It grows in stored water between temperatures of between 20 and 60 degrees C and the disease is caught through the inhalation of spray of water particles - showers, spas and whirlpool baths being the most common culprits.

The lid and meshed warning pipe keep out any unwanted bugs, rats, birds, bird droppings etc that will promote the growth of the bacteria and the insulation keeps the water below 20 degrees C, stopping the bacteria from multiplying to harmful levels (Especially dangerous if your tank is in an insulated loft space where it can get quite warm in summer), as well as prevented the pipes and tank from freezing.

I would also advise giving both your CWSCs a good clean and then a full system decontamination with some chlorine (Fernox do a kit) before using the shower.

For joining the tanks, 22mm pipe should be fine and should be cheaper and easier to find fittings (Tank connectors etc).

 

[monkeywrenchps]

Sorry, to clarify:

You don't need a new float valve and mains feed into the new CWSC though (Although it may be a good idea, as your CWSC will be feeding both the ho****er cylinder and the cold), but depending on the relative sizes, you may want to run a new overflow (Tie it into the old line), as you don't want the second tank overflowing before the water level reaches the warning pipe on your old one. You do need a lid and insulation on the new tank and for all the trouble it takes, I'd add an air vent too, to make sure there's no potential for the water to get stagnent. Also make sure the new CWSC is properly based and not just sat across the joists and the two tanks are set up so that the water for your shower comes off the new one - again to prevent the water from becoming stagnant.

 

[realstokebloke]

Thanks MWC.

I thought so anyway (makes sense) - esp the Legionnaires bit ugh!

So that's a mains water supply 'in' on a ball valve, then all the fittings - yes?

Does it need its own overlow or could i Tee into the other tank?

The 'old' one is (looks) quite clean and i haven't got a new one yet. If i get a 2nd Hand one, i'll dettox both.

I better google the Chlorine kit tho' as i have never heard of them - is it a "bop it in the tank(s)" & leave then flush through type of thing?

I'm pretty sure Salamander say 28mm connectors though ? I guess it's to do with flow rate.

 

[realstokebloke]

Sorry, crossed threads there.

I have to move my header to go where the new 25Gallon will go, so there is a mains CW feed to hand anyway, so on balance i think you're saying yes - have a separate feed in?

I assume the both need to go in at the same height on both tanks?

Noted about the overflow - tee into old one thanks.

Yes it would sit on a platform build for the two existing tanks anyway, so that's fine.

And yes, i'd get the air vent and the insulation on it too.

I'll go google Ferinox chlorine kits?

Can i not just shove a measure of hapric in there ? : )

 

[realstokebloke]

By the way MWC, what the devil is:

"the ho****er cylinder" please?

: )

 

[monkeywrenchps]

Lol, you probably could but for peace of mind I'd go with the Fernox. Yeah, it's a case of drop in tablets, let dissolve, draw water through all appliances connected to the CWSC, check the chlorine level. Add a couple more tablets and then wait an hour. Once your hour is up drain off the water and keep refilling until there is no chlorine left in the system. Make sure that NO_ONE can get at any of these outlets and use them while doing this. The kit comes with chlorine tabs, a chlorine level tester kit and full instructions. Although it does seem a bit pricey, that one kit should last you for years (And you should really do the decontamination once a year).

It's all relative. If one tank is bigger than the other one, then they'll (The warning pipe) have to go in at different heights. If they're the same size then, yeah, try and get them the same. If the tanks are the same size, you don't need to add a seperate one and to be perfectly honest you don't need a second float valve either - 50 gallons should be enough water to feed the cold and hot water cylinder. But if you're insulating etc, then the byelaw 30 kit comes with the overflow adaptors so you might as well use it. If it was me, I probably wouldn't bother with a seperate float valve.

If the MF's instructions say go with 28ml pipe for connecting them, then I'd always follow this.

 

[monkeywrenchps]

Hahaha! I swear I wrote hot water - must be the filters on the site. ho****er

 

[monkeywrenchps]

Ha! How weird.

 

[realstokebloke]

Right you are, thanks.

So a float valve itslef isn't actually part of Bylaw 30 then? Obviously not.

And, i don't actually need one here you say. OK but there is a spare feed left over (from where i'll move the header from) i can use later. I guess i'd isolate it on a valve for now & come back to it if it ever needed adding in afterwards?

Yes, understand the overflow bit - not got the tank yet to see, but think i get it re levels etc.

& yes, the kits do seem a bit pricey & i could see a box of expensive left over kit happening (i bet it's all "sell-by'ed" stuff?)

One last thing (basic stuff) the CWS tank (that i'm adding to) it sounds from what you say that, that feeds all the cold taps in the property? (I thought it was just the upstairs tap outlets?) But it sounds like it's downstairs as well? i.e. the tank is mains fed & then distributes the water from the loft with the gravity pressure?

Cheers again MWC - you don't live up Preston way do you? (to check my handywork & / or tell me what to drain when one day)?

 

[monkeywrenchps]

No. It probably is just the upstairs ones and all the hot water taps in your property. Your kitchen tap is likely mains fed and it does vary from property to property. A quick and easy way to tell is to turn on your kitchen sink tap full bore and feel/see the pressure it comes out at and then compare that to the other outlets.

You don't need a seperate float valve but what you do need to ensure is that the water is drawn off from the tank that the water is NOT fed into, to maintain a good circulation of water and no chance for it to go stagnant. If you've a spare feed though and want to add another float valve to your spare tank then feel free. It won't cause any problems.

Don't confuse the F&E tank for your central heating with the CWSC though.

You could, instead of the Fernox kit go with a couple of bottles of THIN bleach and some pH testing paper (The one that has multiple different colours on it, not just turns from red to blue or has just a single colour change). Test the water from the tap with the litmus before adding the bleach and put it to one side this is your clean water guide. Then test the water in the tank after cleaning, refilling and then adding the bleach and again put this to one side. Test the water at the outlets (Starting with the furthest away from the tank) and when they turn the colour of the one you dipped in the chlorinated tank then you're good. Leave for an hour and then run off all your connections to the CWSC till the water in the taps (All the taps connected to the CWSC!) turns the same colour as the first one you did and you should be golden. Be careful though, chlorine can burn skin. You'll need good gloves. If in any doubt contact a qualified person.

With your spare outlet you should probably blank it off (Or fit that second ball valve), rather than rely on an iso valve because compression fittings are c*nts and the last thing you want is to have a leak in the roof space.

Also, Doh! Just checked up and 28ml pipe should be used for connecting tanks (*Facepalm*).

 

[monkeywrenchps]

Sadly, I'm in Manchester and charge £250 for a full system chlorination (I should really keep the methodology to myself, but legionaires is nasty and I'm too nice).

 

[realstokebloke]

Top stuff MWC, thanks again. (Even if you can't write hot "water cylinder" ! Oh, hang on...) : )

I'll give the new tank a damn good cleaning with the Karcher (if a 2nd hand one) & also the existing one. Then get them in & then have a bash at the Ph to follow.

 

[Guest123]

Yes you need the vent kit, no you don't need a separate ball valve.

 

[realstokebloke]

Cheers.

Did anyone see the bit about the shower pump above also?

Namely, is it worth having additional isolator valves on the inlet / outlet pipework to / from the pump itself?

(The x4 flexi hoses have isolators on already, so i wouldn't thionk so but be interestedc to hear what the pros think.)

& if so, using speedfit is it necessary to get their ones or will the metal compression ones do just fine?

Thnx.

 

[monkeywrenchps]

I should have said this earlier but was under the assumption that your existing tank wasn't byelaw 30'd (Because I have a job coming up this week, doing just this - it must have clouded my thinking).

If your existing tank is already byelawed up and is pretty clean and it's a brand new cistern you're fitting, you don't really need to do the decontamination. A good clean out of the existing tank once you've drained it should do the job quite nicely.

 

[stevetheplumber]

id use push fit tank cons they never seem to leak ,short of copper and either gate valve or lever valves then go of in whatever you want

 

[realstokebloke]

I should have said this earlier but was under the assumption that your existing tank wasn't byelaw 30'd (Because I have a job coming up this week, doing just this - it must have clouded my thinking).

If your existing tank is already byelawed up and is pretty clean and it's a brand new cistern you're fitting, you don't really need to do the decontamination. A good clean out of the existing tank once you've drained it should do the job quite nicely.

Yup, thanks agian MWC.

Existing one is Bylaw'd up & very clean (to the naked eye anyway).

I'm getting a used but very good & almost new polytank - also all bylaw'd up. I will give that a really good clean first (as well as the existing one) then get them all in & running, then have a look at the chlorine clean, thanks.

 

[realstokebloke]

id use push fit tank cons they never seem to leak ,short of copper and either gate valve or lever valves then go of in whatever you want

Hi Steve,

Think i know what you're saying:

Use push fits - check.

But are you saying use copper or not? (think so.)

Valves? Are you saying gate (isolator?) valves or lever valves for any pipes out of the tank or these valves before they go into the pump?

Sorry if it's obvious - but honestly not sure what you mean here.

 

[realstokebloke]

Valves anyone please?

Do i install a set of isolators to each of the x2 inputs & each of the x2 outlets to / from the pump itslef please?

(I think stevetheplumber is telling me to do something with valves but not quite sure what tbh.)

Or, as the x4 flexis in / out of the pump have isloators on already, are they sufficient?

If i do use additional valves (in JGSpeedfit PEX barrier pipe), would i be better using 'ordinary' isolator vlaves (metal ones) or the Speedfit ones plse? (I see that Speedfit ones are a lot more for the same job but might be far better in the long run.)

Thanks.

Edit: I'll stick this on a separate thread as it might / will get lost on here now i suspect.

 

[Bernie2]

The ball valve should be in one cistern (Tank) and the draw off's in the other, to keep a cross flow going and avoid areas of stagnating water.

 

[realstokebloke]

Yup, (even I) have got that now bernie thanks.

What say you about the additional valves though plse?

 

[TBServices]

I would fit them. Just make sure you use full bore isolators, like gate valves or preferably lever handled ones.


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[realstokebloke]

I would fit them. Just make sure you use full bore isolators, like gate valves or preferably lever handled ones.


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Ok, thanks.

Normal (compression) ones or Speedfit though (if they do a lever one)?

 

[TBServices]

If speed fit do them they will be grossly overpriced. Brass will do just make sure you use the metal inserts in the pipe, not plastic.


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[Bernie2]

Curious, I have been on jobs where full bore gate valves have been fitted upside down. The reason being, that if the gate falls off (quite common) it falls back onto the spindle and not downward to shut the supply. Its okay to fit more valves if they are full bore to prevent any restrictions. I like compression, end feed or solder ring. Not at all keen on push fit, had one blow after a couple of days working. No apparent reason for it to have done so. Possible pressure rise but should have held.

 

[realstokebloke]

Curious, I have been on jobs where full bore gate valves have been fitted upside down. The reason being, that if the gate falls off (quite common) it falls back onto the spindle and not downward to shut the supply. Its okay to fit more valves if they are full bore to prevent any restrictions. I like compression, end feed or solder ring. Not at all keen on push fit, had one blow after a couple of days working. No apparent reason for it to have done so. Possible pressure rise but should have held.

OMG - don't say that bernie, I'm nearly all tooled up to do it in pushfit / PEX now & am assured that "whole new houses are all done this way."

So hope it's just a compression valve you're on about not push fit per se.

So finger's crossed.

You've lost me with the gate and the spindle business (inside the valve i assume?)

 

[Bernie2]

Plenty of guys have had push fit blow off for no apparent reason. The thing is of course plenty stay on. So its a case of it maybe okay. But the element of doubt about push fit is probably in many Plumbers minds. On one mail nearly all the Plumbers when asked which they preferred plastic or copper, they nearly all chose copper. Slower but perhaps proven over a longer time.

The bit about the gate, is just about part of the valve inside, it has what is called a gate that screws down to shut the water off. They have a habit of falling off at times falling into the closed position.

 

[realstokebloke]

Plenty of guys have had push fit blow off for no apparent reason. The thing is of course plenty stay on. So its a case of it maybe okay. But the element of doubt about push fit is probably in many Plumbers minds. On one mail nearly all the Plumbers when asked which they preferred plastic or copper, they nearly all chose copper. Slower but perhaps proven over a longer time.

The bit about the gate, is just about part of the valve inside, it has what is called a gate that screws down to shut the water off. They have a habit of falling off at times falling into the closed position.

OK, I just don't feel competant enough for the whole job in copper tbh.

Just on linking the tanks, does that HAVE to be in copper?

Salamander say a 28mm link but on ano thread, i was advised i can do two x 22mm links.

As i will have 22mm PEX over anyway, and will use speedfit connectors, surely i can use plastic, or is there some unwritten rule about only using copper - and, I'd have to get some specially anyway - not the end of the world i know.

Thanks.

 

[monkeywrenchps]

I can't see any problem with doing 2 x 22mm pipes. If anything it may be a bit better. The only downside is that more components = more potential for leaks.

Regarding valves - you can add the extra valves if you like, again it shouldn't make too much difference. They're handy if you need to do any maintenance on the lines/pipes between the pump and say the hot water tank, as it saves you having to drain the tank. The most common fault though is going to be the pump itself and i would say, for the extra cost - especially if you're going to use pushfit that the iso valves on the flexis should be enough. You can always add extra Iso/gate valves at a later date if it's needed. Again - the more components you have - particulary compression fittings, the more chance you have of something going wrong and/or a leak.

Push fit is fine too. The most common mistake made with these is that they're not pushed in far enough. Always push and then re-push. If you're using John Guest plastic pipe then they also come with lines already marked on. If you cut the pipe at the line, then the pipe should be pushed all the way in to the next line along for a good join. Before using the push fit fittings just have a good check that the rubber O ring and the plastic washer are sat correctly. Don't forget to use pipe inserts and also screw down/tighten the fitting up once the pipe is inserted correctly.

 

[monkeywrenchps]

Also, I'm really not a fan of the handle ISO valves. You can't trust the buggers. If the handle comes loose or comes off and is put on the wrong way round..... You just can't trust the buggers. For all the trouble it takes to use a screw driver to turn an Iso valve the trust is there.

 

[realstokebloke]

Also, I'm really not a fan of the handle ISO valves. You can't trust the buggers. If the handle comes loose or comes off and is put on the wrong way round..... You just can't trust the buggers. For all the trouble it takes to use a screw driver to turn an Iso valve the trust is there.

Thanks again MWC.

Ref the iso valves (what i was going to use) the consensus above seems to be that they aren't full bore (& presumably, may restrict the flow?). So is that not the cae here?

By "iso valve", i think you mean one of these?

Conex - Primaflow - Crosco Isolation Valves

And not one of these then (the "the buggers"):

Lever Valve Red Handle

And are we OK with PEX pipe on the CW tank links - and not copper (again, i assume from your answer above, that you'd be OK with that?)>

Cheers

 

[monkeywrenchps]

Can't see any reason why PEX won't work. Personally I'd go with copper just for peace of mind but yeah, PEX should be fine.

Indeed, you've got your valves right there. I'd use full bore ISO valves, rather than gate valves. Gate valves are for low pressure pipework like from the CWSC down to the HWC where the pressure is going to be 0. something of a bar. Once you attach a pump, even on the negative pressure side, you're increasing the pressure and I just wouldn't trust the red gate valves.

 

[on31ll]

Can't see any reason why PEX won't work. Personally I'd go with copper just for peace of mind but yeah, PEX should be fine.

copper freezes and bursts ! pex doesnt ! it expands massivily but then once thawed it goes back to it original shape ! feeting can blow but 99.9% of the time thats only because of inncorrect or no insert ! plastic witstands weather and high pressures extremely well !

 

[realstokebloke]

copper freezes and bursts ! pex doesnt ! it expands massivily but then once thawed it goes back to it original shape ! feeting can blow but 99.9% of the time thats only because of inncorrect or no insert ! plastic witstands weather and high pressures extremely well !

As someone with no bias either way - always surprised how many of you guys still rate copper as "the proper job" and plastic as "a bit of a risk & second best" almost. It does have it's attractions surely?

I'll go with 2x 22mm then in drastic plastic.

Are there specific hole saw sizes for the tank connectors anyone know - can't see them on JG's spec.

 

[TBServices]

As someone with no bias either way - always surprised how many of you guys still rate copper as "the proper job" and plastic as "a bit of a risk & second best" almost. It does have it's attractions surely?

I'll go with 2x 22mm then in drastic plastic.

Are there specific hole saw sizes for the tank connectors anyone know - can't see them on JG's spec.

I think a lot of plumbers don't like push fit pipe and fittings, because it essentially provided a way for DIYers, have-a-go Henry's, and cowboys to take work away from us. Couple that with forums that are seemingly brimming with people offering to give away their expertise for free, and we're all out of work. There's no skill involved with it, it generally looks crap however well you install it, and the fittings aren't as reliable as good old solder.


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[Bernie2]

Many Plumbers do not trust it that is all. It is okay it works, but most professionals want to "fit and forget". I have used plastic in parts of my house and have had no problems with it at all for nearly fifteen years. I have even laid Polyorc 4" mains and had no trouble.

I suppose really, plastic pipe that relies on grab rings and rubber seals to hold does not seem as strong as the molten metal joints of copper fittings.

 

[Guest123]

No matter who you are or what your level of experience is, ANYONE who does a job in plastic walks away from it feeling nervous or at the very least some anxiety.
"Did I fit an insert" "Did I tighten the nut on that JG fiiting" "Will it hold up to pressure and not blow off" are just a few of the things that go through our minds after using plastic.

I can walk away from a job done in copper with yorkies and Kuterlite 600 compression feeling secure about it.

It's everyone to their own and it's ok by me whatever system you use, as long as you feel happy about it at the end of the day.

Now flexies......

 

[on31ll]

I think the best thing to remeber with plastic is not get complient ! If u do then you will come unstuck ! I use plastic all the time and have never had a failure ! (touch wood) but in my own home i used copper plastic in some bits ! Would i ise plastic in my house fully ? Yes i would ! Once u use plastic alot and u remeber all inserts et it becomes like using copper ! Do u ever worry about if u cleaned a joint on copper enough ? Enough flux ? Prob not because its second nature ! Just my thoughts !

 

[Guest123]

I think the best thing to remeber with plastic is not get complient ! If u do then you will come unstuck ! I use plastic all the time and have never had a failure ! (touch wood) but in my own home i used copper plastic in some bits ! Would i ise plastic in my house fully ? Yes i would ! Once u use plastic alot and u remeber all inserts et it becomes like using copper ! Do u ever worry about if u cleaned a joint on copper enough ? Enough flux ? Prob not because its second nature ! Just my thoughts !

Like I said, it's everyone to their own and it's ok by me whatever system you use, as long as you feel happy about it at the end of the day.

 

[Mike Jackson]

Bring back lead, you know where you are with lead, easy to work, if you accidentally hole it, easy to repair. I think the health risks are overplayed what's a bit of lead poisoning between friends?

 

[scotty plumber]

There is a time and a place for plastic pipe (same as flexis). I only use it for roughing in new shower pipe's over existing bath or the odd radiator extension but even then i will always use copper tails up through the floor as i am fussy like that.