Additional CWS linked tank - does the linked one need to be "Bylaw 30'd"?

[realstokebloke]

DIYer here if you can't guess, so all help appreciated in advance.

(Also put this Q in the bylaw bit but more watch this bit.)

To feed a Salamander EPS100 negative head shower pump, I have to add ano 25 gallon CWS tank to the existing one i have in the loft already, so will link them at the bottom.

But does the 'new' tank have to be "Bylaw 30'd" in it's own right (own mains feed & ball cock, air vent over flow etc etc) or can it just link & 'run' off the other one's Bylaw kit as it were plse?

I suspect it (i.e. both) need(s) the full monty in this day and age but thought i'd ask.

Also, does it need to be a 22mm or 28mm link between the tanks at the bottom?

Also, as i feed into & out of the pump, should all the pipework have additional isolator valves? (There are already isolators on all the flexible pump connectors - are they enough or is it good practice to have additional ones too?)

Thanks.

 

[realstokebloke]

Plenty of guys have had push fit blow off for no apparent reason. The thing is of course plenty stay on. So its a case of it maybe okay. But the element of doubt about push fit is probably in many Plumbers minds. On one mail nearly all the Plumbers when asked which they preferred plastic or copper, they nearly all chose copper. Slower but perhaps proven over a longer time.

The bit about the gate, is just about part of the valve inside, it has what is called a gate that screws down to shut the water off. They have a habit of falling off at times falling into the closed position.

OK, I just don't feel competant enough for the whole job in copper tbh.

Just on linking the tanks, does that HAVE to be in copper?

Salamander say a 28mm link but on ano thread, i was advised i can do two x 22mm links.

As i will have 22mm PEX over anyway, and will use speedfit connectors, surely i can use plastic, or is there some unwritten rule about only using copper - and, I'd have to get some specially anyway - not the end of the world i know.

Thanks.

 

[monkeywrenchps]

I can't see any problem with doing 2 x 22mm pipes. If anything it may be a bit better. The only downside is that more components = more potential for leaks.

Regarding valves - you can add the extra valves if you like, again it shouldn't make too much difference. They're handy if you need to do any maintenance on the lines/pipes between the pump and say the hot water tank, as it saves you having to drain the tank. The most common fault though is going to be the pump itself and i would say, for the extra cost - especially if you're going to use pushfit that the iso valves on the flexis should be enough. You can always add extra Iso/gate valves at a later date if it's needed. Again - the more components you have - particulary compression fittings, the more chance you have of something going wrong and/or a leak.

Push fit is fine too. The most common mistake made with these is that they're not pushed in far enough. Always push and then re-push. If you're using John Guest plastic pipe then they also come with lines already marked on. If you cut the pipe at the line, then the pipe should be pushed all the way in to the next line along for a good join. Before using the push fit fittings just have a good check that the rubber O ring and the plastic washer are sat correctly. Don't forget to use pipe inserts and also screw down/tighten the fitting up once the pipe is inserted correctly.

 

[monkeywrenchps]

Also, I'm really not a fan of the handle ISO valves. You can't trust the buggers. If the handle comes loose or comes off and is put on the wrong way round..... You just can't trust the buggers. For all the trouble it takes to use a screw driver to turn an Iso valve the trust is there.

 

[realstokebloke]

Also, I'm really not a fan of the handle ISO valves. You can't trust the buggers. If the handle comes loose or comes off and is put on the wrong way round..... You just can't trust the buggers. For all the trouble it takes to use a screw driver to turn an Iso valve the trust is there.

Thanks again MWC.

Ref the iso valves (what i was going to use) the consensus above seems to be that they aren't full bore (& presumably, may restrict the flow?). So is that not the cae here?

By "iso valve", i think you mean one of these?

Conex - Primaflow - Crosco Isolation Valves

And not one of these then (the "the buggers"):

Lever Valve Red Handle

And are we OK with PEX pipe on the CW tank links - and not copper (again, i assume from your answer above, that you'd be OK with that?)>

Cheers

 

[monkeywrenchps]

Can't see any reason why PEX won't work. Personally I'd go with copper just for peace of mind but yeah, PEX should be fine.

Indeed, you've got your valves right there. I'd use full bore ISO valves, rather than gate valves. Gate valves are for low pressure pipework like from the CWSC down to the HWC where the pressure is going to be 0. something of a bar. Once you attach a pump, even on the negative pressure side, you're increasing the pressure and I just wouldn't trust the red gate valves.

 

[on31ll]

Can't see any reason why PEX won't work. Personally I'd go with copper just for peace of mind but yeah, PEX should be fine.

copper freezes and bursts ! pex doesnt ! it expands massivily but then once thawed it goes back to it original shape ! feeting can blow but 99.9% of the time thats only because of inncorrect or no insert ! plastic witstands weather and high pressures extremely well !

 

[realstokebloke]

copper freezes and bursts ! pex doesnt ! it expands massivily but then once thawed it goes back to it original shape ! feeting can blow but 99.9% of the time thats only because of inncorrect or no insert ! plastic witstands weather and high pressures extremely well !

As someone with no bias either way - always surprised how many of you guys still rate copper as "the proper job" and plastic as "a bit of a risk & second best" almost. It does have it's attractions surely?

I'll go with 2x 22mm then in drastic plastic.

Are there specific hole saw sizes for the tank connectors anyone know - can't see them on JG's spec.

 

[TBServices]

As someone with no bias either way - always surprised how many of you guys still rate copper as "the proper job" and plastic as "a bit of a risk & second best" almost. It does have it's attractions surely?

I'll go with 2x 22mm then in drastic plastic.

Are there specific hole saw sizes for the tank connectors anyone know - can't see them on JG's spec.

I think a lot of plumbers don't like push fit pipe and fittings, because it essentially provided a way for DIYers, have-a-go Henry's, and cowboys to take work away from us. Couple that with forums that are seemingly brimming with people offering to give away their expertise for free, and we're all out of work. There's no skill involved with it, it generally looks crap however well you install it, and the fittings aren't as reliable as good old solder.


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[Bernie2]

Many Plumbers do not trust it that is all. It is okay it works, but most professionals want to "fit and forget". I have used plastic in parts of my house and have had no problems with it at all for nearly fifteen years. I have even laid Polyorc 4" mains and had no trouble.

I suppose really, plastic pipe that relies on grab rings and rubber seals to hold does not seem as strong as the molten metal joints of copper fittings.

 

[Guest123]

No matter who you are or what your level of experience is, ANYONE who does a job in plastic walks away from it feeling nervous or at the very least some anxiety.
"Did I fit an insert" "Did I tighten the nut on that JG fiiting" "Will it hold up to pressure and not blow off" are just a few of the things that go through our minds after using plastic.

I can walk away from a job done in copper with yorkies and Kuterlite 600 compression feeling secure about it.

It's everyone to their own and it's ok by me whatever system you use, as long as you feel happy about it at the end of the day.

Now flexies......

 

[on31ll]

I think the best thing to remeber with plastic is not get complient ! If u do then you will come unstuck ! I use plastic all the time and have never had a failure ! (touch wood) but in my own home i used copper plastic in some bits ! Would i ise plastic in my house fully ? Yes i would ! Once u use plastic alot and u remeber all inserts et it becomes like using copper ! Do u ever worry about if u cleaned a joint on copper enough ? Enough flux ? Prob not because its second nature ! Just my thoughts !

 

[Guest123]

I think the best thing to remeber with plastic is not get complient ! If u do then you will come unstuck ! I use plastic all the time and have never had a failure ! (touch wood) but in my own home i used copper plastic in some bits ! Would i ise plastic in my house fully ? Yes i would ! Once u use plastic alot and u remeber all inserts et it becomes like using copper ! Do u ever worry about if u cleaned a joint on copper enough ? Enough flux ? Prob not because its second nature ! Just my thoughts !

Like I said, it's everyone to their own and it's ok by me whatever system you use, as long as you feel happy about it at the end of the day.

 

[Mike Jackson]

Bring back lead, you know where you are with lead, easy to work, if you accidentally hole it, easy to repair. I think the health risks are overplayed what's a bit of lead poisoning between friends?

 

[scotty plumber]

There is a time and a place for plastic pipe (same as flexis). I only use it for roughing in new shower pipe's over existing bath or the odd radiator extension but even then i will always use copper tails up through the floor as i am fussy like that.