Flow restriction from magnaclean/tf1

[on31ll]

Got a customer who loves to read the internet and research everything and he has asked me to fit a magnaclean to his central heating! Simple yes ! But he is saying to me he has read that the magna clean is the best for magnetic but no good for non magnetic crap ! So he wants a mangna clean and after that a tf1 fitted ! Other than flow restrictions any issues ? I have talked and talked to my hearts content about this but he is set on this !

 

[ADEY]

If your customer is particularly concerned with non magnetic debris you could recommend that you install a MagnaClean TwinTech. MagnaClean TwinTech can be installed on any central heating system and, as the name suggests, possesses exceptionally powerful magnetic and non-magnetic filtration characteristics. TwinTech is available in 22mm black and is ADEY's most advanced, high capacity filter. From our experience MagnaClean TwinTech is the perfect partner for central heating systems that have specific problems with non-magnetic debris. It's also particularly well suited for open-vented systems; where plastic pipework is fitted or underfloor heating. Central heating systems of this nature tend to have more problems and a higher volume of non-magnetic debris in suspension. In order to achieve the best protection for the boiler, we recommend that MagnaClean TwinTech is fitted between the last radiator and the boiler.

 

[petercj]

I've got a Magna-Booster that seems to work well and does what it says on the can.

I can see why the Magna Clean would be better for attracting magnetite due to the larger magnet, but then as magnetite is magnetic anyway, most of it will stay in the bottom of metal radiators.

As the Magna-Booster pulls out the relatively small amount of magnetite that does get into suspension, and also other debris, with the filter being by-passed if becoming blocked, it seems a good choice to me.

Paid £50 for it on ebay - new, boxed , etc. Managed to negotiate carriage inclusive for that too.

Bloke said I was a hard man to deal with, but gave me good feedback anyway!

 

[on31ll]

I never thought of the twin tech ! Ive actually fitted one to a friends but never thought of it to tell the customer ! Im sure he will settle for the twintech

 

[petercj]

I was told by someone at BG that they stop fitting MagnaClean because they had trouble with them and now fit MagnaBooster.

I don't have any long-term experience of either, but the MagnaBooster is very solid and well made, and seems to be working well. It's only been on a short while.

A good efficiency test would be to fit both in a return pipe and see if the one nearest the boiler picked up magnetite/debris that was missed by the first in line - swapping around to test the efficiency of both units.

Could do the same with the Tf1.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Got a customer who loves to read the internet and research everything and he has asked me to fit a magnaclean to his central heating! Simple yes ! But he is saying to me he has read that the magna clean is the best for magnetic but no good for non magnetic crap ! So he wants a mangna clean and after that a tf1 fitted ! Other than flow restrictions any issues ? I have talked and talked to my hearts content about this but he is set on this !

For best result offer to customer manual flush + power flush + magna clean !

 

[petercj]

Or better still, fit new radiators throughout, and leave a Magna Cleanse permanently installed with a tf1 on the return!

Can't be too careful with these small bore heat exchangers.

:yes:

 

[GrahamM]

Got a customer who loves to read the internet and research everything and he has asked me to fit a magnaclean to his central heating! Simple yes ! But he is saying to me he has read that the magna clean is the best for magnetic but no good for non magnetic crap ! So he wants a mangna clean and after that a tf1 fitted ! Other than flow restrictions any issues ? I have talked and talked to my hearts content about this but he is set on this !

At the end of the day the customer is always right.
You have advised. I can't see it causing any great problems, but if it does the customer wants it that way.
Take the cash and do the job.

I was told by someone at BG that they stop fitting MagnaClean because they had trouble with them and now fit MagnaBooster.

I don't have any long-term experience of either, but the MagnaBooster is very solid and well made, and seems to be working well. It's only been on a short while.

A good efficiency test would be to fit both in a return pipe and see if the one nearest the boiler picked up magnetite/debris that was missed by the first in line - swapping around to test the efficiency of both units.

Could do the same with the Tf1.

Correct.
I have come across dozens that are leaking and a load where the magnet shears off just bellow the cap and no more than few years old.
Magna cleans are junk but in their defense, I do believe they work slightly better than the magna boosters.

 

[petercj]

At the end of the day the customer is always right.
You have advised. I can't see it causing any great problems, but if it does the customer wants it that way.
Take the cash and do the job.

Correct.
I have come across dozens that are leaking and a load where the magnet shears off just bellow the cap and no more than few years old.
Magna cleans are junk but in their defense, I do believe they work slightly better than the magna boosters.

Do you think the magnet in the Magna Booster is too weak?

Vaillant engineer told me that the majority of restricted heat exchangers he sees can be linked to opening up the system and debris being downloaded from the header tank, or debris entering the system when opened up in some other way.

Which suggests that having a filter that will catch non-magnetic debris as well is essential.

As the majority of magnetite created in rads is going to settle in the bottom of the radiator it comes from, I've wondered whether the larger magnet in the MagnaClean might be over-kill.

My first thought when considering the MagnaBooster was whether it could cause flow problems if the filter becomes full, but the manufacturer's claim the flow will just by-pass the filter if it becomes restricted. This really was my first priority, i.e. that the MB could do no harm, and that it can easily be drained. The second criterion was that it should filter out non-metalic debris; the third factor being that the magnet should be strong enough to filter out the magnetite as it passes through. The main function being to protect the boiler, not to keep the system free of magnetite, which I can't see the MagnaClean doing anyway, bearing in mind the fact that most of it will stay in the bottom of the rads, and be kept to the minimum by chemical inhibitor anyway.

I've got MagnaBooster 2, and I see that MB3 has got a bigger magnet attached to the outside - so I've wondered if that suggests that the magnet in MB2 is a tad weak for the job. Or have they done it in an attempt to counter the advertising play MagnaClean have put on their larger magnet size - which on this forum seems to have worked quite well, although the Tf1 seems quite popular too. I've not laid hands on a Tf1, but from what I can make of it the magnet is unlikely to be any bigger than the MB2. From what I've read on here, the marketing of the Tf1 is pretty intense, with offers of chemicals thrown in, etc. Plus, I suppose Fernox is a well established and trusted brand, and what they produce generally is all about system cleansing and maintenance, and maybe that causes people to put faith in the Tf1 rather than the MB.

I do like the solid feel of the MB, and also the look of it. In that respect I think it stands ahead of the rest. Although of course the most important thing is whether it does the job it was made to do.

Which remains to be seen in the longer term.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Omg it is a filter only ..... clean your rads +power flush them + Inhibitor .
This is not some sort of supper dupper engineering product , it is designed to try and to extend the live of boiler / system that is all !!!

 

[petercj]

Omg it is a filter only ..... clean your rads +power flush them + Inhibitor .
This is not some sort of supper dupper engineering product , it is designed to try and to extend the live of boiler / system that is all !!!

More to extend the life of the boiler than the rest of the system perhaps.

If the MB and Tf1 magnets are adequate for removing the magnetite from the water returning to the boiler, then the MagnaClean "size matters" argument falls down.

A filter might not be a super-dupper piece of engineering, but if Rolls Royce were to build a car with no filters on the fuel lines it would be regarded as incompetence, and telling their customers that they should clean their fuel tanks out more often would be to add insult to injury.

Gods knows what the design engineers at Vaillant are thinking of by not building a filter into their boilers with small bore heat exchangers. A cynical view might say that they sell more heat exchangers by not doing so, but at a huge cost to their reputation as being one of the top manufacturer's of boilers.

Personally, I think modern boilers are quite impressive, watching the Vaillant engineer put the boiler into diagnostic mode and seeing the information he was able to access was very interesting.

But how the intelligence that created such a piece of equipment manages to leave the ship vulnerable for a ha'porth of tar beats me, i.e. a highly sophisticate piece of technology gets bolted on to a crude system with no protection from the hazards that are commonly found in that system.

 

[jam1979]

u could also try the spirotech filter theyre supposed to be very good

 

[southcoastboile]

If your customer is particularly concerned with non magnetic debris you could recommend that you install a MagnaClean TwinTech. MagnaClean TwinTech can be installed on any central heating system and, as the name suggests, possesses exceptionally powerful magnetic and non-magnetic filtration characteristics. TwinTech is available in 22mm black and is ADEY's most advanced, high capacity filter. From our experience MagnaClean TwinTech is the perfect partner for central heating systems that have specific problems with non-magnetic debris. It's also particularly well suited for open-vented systems; where plastic pipework is fitted or underfloor heating. Central heating systems of this nature tend to have more problems and a higher volume of non-magnetic debris in suspension. In order to achieve the best protection for the boiler, we recommend that MagnaClean TwinTech is fitted between the last radiator and the boiler. Your customer will find this information at www.adey.co.uk if he would like to read up on this product.

I think you should have brass threads on the magnacleans and improve the valves that dont have a shut off point and are prone to leaking.
I always use magnacleans but these are some things that reallly could be better.

 

[Roger Welton]

I agree with south coast

 

[bspareltd]

There is a plastic version of the spirotech mb3 released by (caleffi) altecnic dirtmagiq.
In my opinion it will not work as good because of the external magnet , covering less surface area.
Im on with my filter , hopefully on schedule to release on 1st of november 2012

 

[petercj]

There is a plastic version of the spirotech mb3 released by (caleffi) altecnic dirtmagiq.
In my opinion it will not work as good because of the external magnet , covering less surface area.
Im on with my filter , hopefully on schedule to release on 1st of november 2012

I like the heavy brass body of the MagnaBooster - being one of it's out-standing features imo.

Other than wanting to increase the size of the magnet, and perhaps making the filter easier to empty by removing the magnet first, I can't see why they've put the magnet on the outside of the MB3. Looks like an after-thought to me, and suggests that the magnet in MB2 is inadequate for the task.

A plastic body allows a visual check on the contents, but personally I much prefer the security of the heavy brass body on the MB.

I expect Dyson will produce an all singing and dancing version next - bound to have a ball in it somewhere, and a plastic body to see what's going on ... oh, and made in China!


What are the USP's of your filter?

 

[bspareltd]

The USP of my filter is : (1) flow management system ie the path of the water has to go through , the non magnetic filter section without beening blocked
(2) Dose filter in situ . For example if you wanted to pour inhibitor in a magnaclean , you would turn off isolating valves , take lid off and you would have the canister full of water . You would need a sponge to take water out ( not very practical ) .
Once you have done this , and put the lid back on ,your 'o' ring will always leak (another cost)
With my product turn isolating valves off , open drain valve to empty canister ( something magnaclean hasn't thought of ), remove bleeding valve and pour in inhibitor via a funnel.
(3) Service appliance without opening lid .
If you look at magnaclean and fernox tf1 , they use 'o' rings for there lids .
I have designed this so a washer fits and seals lid . Remember a 'o' ring covers less cross section area than a washer thus more chance of leaking.
The worst design is the magnaclean , because when you turn the lid of the magnaclean there is chance of the rubber 'o' ring buckling as you turn the lid.
I went to a baxi training day in warrington last week . The trainer Richard ,were on about filters , I showed him my prototype and he was impressed .
He stated that baxi are looking to pull away from fernox , I may have an opportunity.
There was another guy at this training day that were interested in buying a share into the business , but I declined.
The fernox Tf1 claim catching non magnetic particles, but the patent inspector has declined there invention , so i think fernox are breaking the descriptions act.
My product is designed in huddersfield and tooling made in huddersfield , made by a plastic injection moulding company in huddersfield .
I can proudly place a union jack on the front of the filter.
If the big filter companies came knocking at my door , i would license this to them.

 

[petercj]

The USP of my filter is : (1) flow management system ie the path of the water has to go through , the non magnetic filter section without beening blocked
(2) Dose filter in situ . For example if you wanted to pour inhibitor in a magnaclean , you would turn off isolating valves , take lid off and you would have the canister full of water . You would need a sponge to take water out ( not very practical ) .
Once you have done this , and put the lid back on ,your 'o' ring will always leak (another cost)
With my product turn isolating valves off , open drain valve to empty canister ( something magnaclean hasn't thought of ), remove bleeding valve and pour in inhibitor via a funnel.
(3) Service appliance without opening lid .
If you look at magnaclean and fernox tf1 , they use 'o' rings for there lids .
I have designed this so a washer fits and seals lid . Remember a 'o' ring covers less cross section area than a washer thus more chance of leaking.
The worst design is the magnaclean , because when you turn the lid of the magnaclean there is chance of the rubber 'o' ring buckling as you turn the lid.
I went to a baxi training day in warrington last week . The trainer Richard ,were on about filters , I showed him my prototype and he was impressed .
He stated that baxi are looking to pull away from fernox , I may have an opportunity.
There was another guy at this training day that were interested in buying a share into the business , but I declined.
The fernox Tf1 claim catching non magnetic particles, but the patent inspector has declined there invention , so i think fernox are breaking the descriptions act.
My product is designed in huddersfield and tooling made in huddersfield , made by a plastic injection moulding company in huddersfield .
I can proudly place a union jack on the front of the filter.
If the big filter companies came knocking at my door , i would license this to them.

Sounds good - other than the plastic body.

Have you tried selling it to boiler manufacturer's (like Vaillant) who fit small-bore heat exchangers?

 

[SafeGasInstall]

filter is a filter end of ..... bottom line is cost of actual filter

every one will fit the one that is reasonable on price and quality

it is a filter end of the day if system gets cleaned or has been maintained regularly than any filter will do

 

[bspareltd]

i spoke to a retail buyer over the phone about my filter and he stated magnaclean and fernox tf1 is overpriced . If I can come under there price they would look at it .
Magnaclean and fernox tf1 sell there filters to the merchants from £52 to £56 , depending on quantity.
I will be introducing my filter to the merchants at £46 each, so that should make an impact .
If I sold 1000 units a month I would be content !

 

[petercj]

i spoke to a retail buyer over the phone about my filter and he stated magnaclean and fernox tf1 is overpriced . If I can come under there price they would look at it .
Magnaclean and fernox tf1 sell there filters to the merchants from £52 to £56 , depending on quantity.
I will be introducing my filter to the merchants at £46 each, so that should make an impact .
If I sold 1000 units a month I would be content !

What kind of guarantee will you give with your filter?

Spirotech MagnaBooster comes with a 20 year guarantee.

I wonder why BG switched to Spirotech MB after experiencing difficulties with MagnaClean, and not the Tf1.

Perhaps the experience of having to go back and change so many failed MagaCleans served to focus their minds on durability.

Putting something on a system to protect the most expensive element, and then finding that it turns out to be the weakest link, has to be embarrassing for a company like BG.

Competitive pricing has seen many things fall in quality over the years despite advances in technology that should have improved them, domestic washing machines being a classic example.

Moving down the price scale nearly always means a trade-off in quality, and there are a lot of people who know that, and will avoid doing it.

It saddens me to say it, but seeing a Union Jack on such a product does nothing to reassure me re quality - if it's made in Germany, Denmark, or is Swiss, etc, that might.

 

[kozak1968]

I prefer the TF1, they are easier to clean than magclean and the valves dont leak when you touch them.

 

[bspareltd]

I will be providing a 2 year guarantee.
Magnaclean failed on the valves but the damage is done .
The quality of my product is nylon 6 glass filled , exactly the same as fernox tf1

 

[petercj]

I will be providing a 2 year guarantee.
Magnaclean failed on the valves but the damage is done .
The quality of my product is nylon 6 glass filled , exactly the same as fernox tf1

Well good luck with it - I hope you make your fortune with your filter.

What's it called?

 

[bspareltd]

look out for TRAPPEX

Well good luck with it - I hope you make your fortune with your filter.

What's it called?

 

[petercj]

"Trappex" is a board game - have you checked out usage as a name for trading under?

 

[bspareltd]

The company is called trappex ltd , we havent thought of a name of the filter. Any suggestions!

 

[petercj]

The company is called trappex ltd , we havent thought of a name of the filter. Any suggestions!

The reason I mentioned it is because I googled to see if you had a website, and a load of stuff about Trappex games came up. Which could be a problem if you are marketing under that name and hope to get listed with the major search engines.

As for a name for your filter...

What emphasis do you intend to put on the marketing of it?

For example, will you stress the properties it has for cleaning the system and gathering magnetite, as MagnaClean have.

Or, will you steer more towards the protection it can provide for heat exchangers by trapping debris, magnetite, etc. Obviously all are relevant, but you could put the emphasis on boiler protection and call it HexProtector, HexGuard, or something of that nature that stresses the protection it gives to the boiler, rather than just being a filter that cleans the water that passes through it.

Yesterday I revisited the marketing material on Spirotech MagnaBooster (mainly because I've got one) and with MB2 they put great emphasis on the filtering function of the unit, both in relation to magnetite and non-metallic debris, and they present the magnet as having a secondary role in retaining magnetite in the sump of the filter.

But with MB3, they have put more emphasis on the magnetic properties of the unit, and stuck a whopping great magnet on the outside, which to me looks like an after-thought, and imo looks pants.

My impression is that the marketing of Spirotech's MB has been strongly influenced by the need to compete with MagnaClean, and that maybe they have lost sight of the all round benefits of MB. Which if taken in combination, make it a better buy in terms of protecting small bore heat exchangers from various types of debris (on paper at least). However, the information given on the Spirotech website refers to making the system "more efficient", and doesn't say very much about protecting (small bore) heat exchangers from debris entering the system.

If you are confident that your filter will protect a small bore heat exchanger from various forms of debris, I think that would be a very good focus for your marketing campaign, and naming it accordingly would be power to the cause.

I reckon a name starting with 'Hex' would be relevant and have a ring to it - HexPro (as in protector). HexClear perhaps? Both having an obvious association with Trappex.

 

[bspareltd]

Thank you for your feedback , I will take that into consideration.
I have been deliberetly asking the merchants which of the filters are the most popular .
They are stating at the moment ,fernox tf1 and magnacleans sell well .
This is my opinion ,the magnet on the spirotech mb3 and the new dirt magiq are not that strong.
We will be sampling the first batch in October .
My email address is [email protected] , if you give me an email around October , i will send a filter out to you for free .
Let me know how you would market a new product on a shoe string!

 

[petercj]

Thank you for your feedback , I will take that into consideration.
I have been deliberetly asking the merchants which of the filters are the most popular .
They are stating at the moment ,fernox tf1 and magnacleans sell well .
This is my opinion ,the magnet on the spirotech mb3 and the new dirt magiq are not that strong.
We will be sampling the first batch in October .
My email address is [email protected] , if you give me an email around October , i will send a filter out to you for free .
Let me know how you would market a new product on a shoe string!

I would make maximum use of the Internet to market the product on a shoe string.

A few ideas here ...

First of all you need a name to launch your brand with ... as an example...


............................................................................................................
HEX+PRO TECHNOLOGY [+]


Double Hex+Protect Super-Flow Technology keeps heat exchangers clear and clean of magnetite and other harmful debris.


Advanced drain and instant access design enables easy top-up of system inhibitor chemicals.


Easy to fit and maintain from a British manufacturer, plus a 2-year warranty.

............................................................................................................

A short and concise intro to your product presented consistently in all your advertising, maybe with a logo ... [+] was the nearest I could get to a heat exchanger logo on a standard keyboard.

You can set up a digital shop-window on a shoestring by setting up a website with a link to You-Tube where potential customers can view a demo video showing off your product.

You could make up a demo rig like the one in this Spirotrap video


SpiroTrap MB2 Demonstration (Domestic) - YouTube

Use a Handycam, or similar, and Windows Movie Maker, to construct a video showing a demo of your filter. A good selling point would be to show how your filter picks up debris and magnetite missed by other filters when second in line to them on a transparent pipe. A see-through heat exchanger made up of Perspex pipe would be good for showing effects of missed magnetite and debris. Using editing facility in Windows MM to create build up of residue and blockages.


Also, show demo of drain and top-up facility.


Having a link from You Tube back to your website will enable people to get further details about the filter, price, contact, etc.


If you don’t fancy making the video yourself, or want more advanced graphics, you should be able to find a keen amateur on You Tube near you who will do it for a small charge.

Once you have your shop-window set up on the Internet you can decide on targets.

Why not aim high and see if BG will give it a trial?

The heavy brass body of MB is sure to see the cost of them shoot up as the cost of such materials consistently increases. And the exterior magnet on MB3 does look like an after-thought – bit of a dog’s dinner if you ask me.

So if your filter can fit the bill for BG, maybe they would put their own badge on it, and run with it – nothing ventured, nothing gained, as the saying goes.


As for general pointers on marketing of the filter: I think you should aim to sell it as better than the others, rather than “as good but cheaper”, which is the impression I have got from the way you have talked about it on this site.

Pick up on the weak points of the others, and emphasis how your filter is better, e.g. a bigger magnet than MB2; better body construction and connections than MagnaClean, etc.

One way of pulling in small one-man band plumbers could be to offer a marketing package for their own business with every ten units taken, e.g. business cards, letter heads, flyers, etc, all carrying recognition of them as Hex+Protect Technology agents. You could have a register of agents on your website, and your website could have a password protected link for HPT agents to access further help with marketing, i.e. of your filter and their businesses.

Any advertising you do will have a note of your website, and your website could have a post code finder for HPT agents.

Presumably you will be selling such packages to the merchants, who will be distributors and pull in the one-man-bands. You could do bonus offers when 50, 100, units, etc, have been taken – clothing maybe, with the Hex-Protect badge on, and the plumber’s business name.

Include a sticker for the boiler with every filter carrying the ‘Hex+Protected Technology’ assurance trade mark. Also, a plasticised reusable sticker on the filter for due top-up dates. A badged marker pen included in the box would be a nice touch, and would get the brand name circulating some more.

[FONT=&amp]Just a few ideas to consider.

If you can persuade a national chain of merchants to give it a go based on being better as a filter, and with a better profit margin, then the 'rolling of the ball' will depend on the quality of your filter.

One thing to consider is whether your manufacturer could cope if you did get a big order?

It wouldn't be the first time a business has fallen down due to being too successful, too quickly.
[/FONT]

 

[bspareltd]

Great advice Petercj , I will certainly take that on board .You are right not go cheaper but let the market know about the faults and weak points of other products.

 

[petercj]

Great advice Petercj , I will certainly take that on board .You are right not go cheaper but let the market know about the faults and weak points of other products.

That's the way to go imo.

Because of the nature of your product, and the small number of people you need to target, i.e. the buyers within the merchants, I don't see that you need a highly expensive marketing campaign.

But what you do set up needs to be very convincing to win over a highly informed and select group of customers. The main points coming to mind being durability, functionality, ease of fitting, and price, in relation the rest of the field.

MB being top of the tree in relation to durability, but with a confusing marketing message about how it does what it claims to do.

MagnaClean has impressed some people by its pulling power in relation to magnetite, but what about non-metallic debris! Plus, their reputation is tarnished in relation to durability and functionality. If their best known filter has flaws, why would any of their other filters be of better quality?

I don't have any first-hand experience of the Tf1, but it looks to me as if the Fernox filter is your biggest competitor, being something of an all-rounder from a well established and highly respected brand leader in the plumbing market who specialises in cleaning and protective chemicals for heating systems.

So at coal-face level, why would your average plumber, who has walked into a plumber's merchants to buy a Tf1, walk out with one of your filters instead?

A new and unknown product, from a new and unknown manufacturer, up against a company like Fernox - David and Goliath go head-to-head!

The merchants might be persuaded by the quality of your product and the greater profit margin, but will they put much effort into selling it to the plumbers who walk up to their counters?

Will their efforts amount to little more than half a dozen stacked up on the counter with a pile of leaflets alongside?

Fernox hearing of a new kid on the block will no doubt run their promotions thicker and faster than usual.

To hit the sweet-spot with your marketing you need to be able to tempt the middle-man in the chain while he's stood at the merchant's counter waiting for his ball-cock, cylinder, couplings, etc, to appear.

That's where your promotion of a marketing pack comes in - all one man bands need business cards, letter-heads, and other stationary to promote their businesses with. An important element at the best of times, but even more so when business is flagging.

So if you are offering a starter stationary pack with the first ten-unit order, that should get some people looking twice. They may not walk out with ten filters, but if they take one to try, with the offer in mind, you will have started the ball rolling.

Apart from getting your brand name mentioned on their stationary, you will have an immediate customer data base forming when they register their details on-line to take up the offer, providing great opportunities for mailing other offers out on a regular basis.

Negotiating special rates with a printing company at a time like this should be no problem.

I don't think marketing on a shoe-string need be a problem for you, perhaps more relevant is how you will cope with the success of effective marketing, i.e. if a national chain of merchants gives you an order for a 1000 filters, can you cope with that?

Even if your manufacturer can turn the order around in good time, how much credit will they allow you?

What I discovered early on when starting out on my own account was that big businesses run on the credit given to them by small businesses, i.e. what they take from you they will try and sell before they have paid you for the goods.

Which can be a massive challenge to finances when you are operating on a shoe-string.

They literally have you by the short-and-curlies, because as much as you'd like to take a solicitor to them after waiting months for your money, you can't afford to because you need their business.

So my advice is to think ahead of your marketing, and have a plan for coping with the success of it. If you get paid within three months of delivering a big order, you will be doing very well, if it was me, I'd allow for six.

 

[bspareltd]

You ideas are excellent , it seems as if you are a marketing expert ,would you help me launch this product ?
I have never done this before , all I have done is plumbing and gas , since I left school.
My knowledge on marketing is limited.

That's the way to go imo.

Because of the nature of your product, and the small number of people you need to target, i.e. the buyers within the merchants, I don't see that you need a highly expensive marketing campaign.

But what you do set up needs to be very convincing to win over a highly informed and select group of customers. The main points coming to mind being durability, functionality, ease of fitting, and price, in relation the rest of the field.

MB being top of the tree in relation to durability, but with a confusing marketing message about how it does what it claims to do.

MagnaClean has impressed some people by its pulling power in relation to magnetite, but what about non-metallic debris! Plus, their reputation is tarnished in relation to durability and functionality. If their best known filter has flaws, why would any of their other filters be of better quality?

I don't have any first-hand experience of the Tf1, but it looks to me as if the Fernox filter is your biggest competitor, being something of an all-rounder from a well established and highly respected brand leader in the plumbing market who specialises in cleaning and protective chemicals for heating systems.

So at coal-face level, why would your average plumber, who has walked into a plumber's merchants to buy a Tf1, walk out with one of your filters instead?

A new and unknown product, from a new and unknown manufacturer, up against a company like Fernox - David and Goliath go head-to-head!

The merchants might be persuaded by the quality of your product and the greater profit margin, but will they put much effort into selling it to the plumbers who walk up to their counters?

Will their efforts amount to little more than half a dozen stacked up on the counter with a pile of leaflets alongside?

Fernox hearing of a new kid on the block will no doubt run their promotions thicker and faster than usual.

To hit the sweet-spot with your marketing you need to be able to tempt the middle-man in the chain while he's stood at the merchant's counter waiting for his ball-cock, cylinder, couplings, etc, to appear.

That's where your promotion of a marketing pack comes in - all one man bands need business cards, letter-heads, and other stationary to promote their businesses with. An important element at the best of times, but even more so when business is flagging.

So if you are offering a starter stationary pack with the first ten-unit order, that should get some people looking twice. They may not walk out with ten filters, but if they take one to try, with the offer in mind, you will have started the ball rolling.

Apart from getting your brand name mentioned on their stationary, you will have an immediate customer data base forming when they register their details on-line to take up the offer, providing great opportunities for mailing other offers out on a regular basis.

Negotiating special rates with a printing company at a time like this should be no problem.

I don't think marketing on a shoe-string need be a problem for you, perhaps more relevant is how you will cope with the success of effective marketing, i.e. if a national chain of merchants gives you an order for a 1000 filters, can you cope with that?

Even if your manufacturer can turn the order around in good time, how much credit will they allow you?

What I discovered early on when starting out on my own account was that big businesses run on the credit given to them by small businesses, i.e. what they take from you they will try and sell before they have paid you for the goods.

Which can be a massive challenge to finances when you are operating on a shoe-string.

They literally have you by the short-and-curlies, because as much as you'd like to take a solicitor to them after waiting months for your money, you can't afford to because you need their business.

So my advice is to think ahead of your marketing, and have a plan for coping with the success of it. If you get paid within three months of delivering a big order, you will be doing very well, if it was me, I'd allow for six.

 

[Centralheatking]

I have read your very well considered approach to marketing a new plumbing product.

Are you an installer or someone with a sales and marketing base ? If you want to learn
a little more about centralheatking and our product which will be ready late Sept
please reply - we might/will need help.


This thread has been already opened in the 'pub' and I had some really encouraging advice
about centralheatking


My team are really quite old, all of us are over 50, been doin this for a decade and
have some heavy duty connections if anybody wants advice as said b4 we all
have an idea in us is just gettin it out there.

centralheatking

 

[petercj]

You ideas are excellent , it seems as if you are a marketing expert ,would you help me launch this product ?
I have never done this before , all I have done is plumbing and gas , since I left school.
My knowledge on marketing is limited.

Not a marketing expert, just started out in business when I was 21 (which was quite a long time ago) and learned a few things along the way.

Helping you to launch your product would be fascinating, but unfortunately is not something I can take on. But always happy to help if I can on this forum (as long as its ok with board admin of course).

A good Bank Manager, and a good accountant are pretty essential.

There is this too:-

Business in You | There's a business in everyone. What's the business in you?Business in You | There's a business in everyone. What's the business in you?

You can set up a limited company quite cheaply, which will give you some protection if the worst happens.

Something I discovered with a national company that dragged out paying their account held with me for eight months was that as soon as I offered a 5% discount for early payment they were never late paying again. Which just goes to show the way in which accountants think - £sd at every turn.

Have you done any trials on your filter yet?

Maybe you can make contact with say 10 plumbers through this board, and provide them with a filter on the basis that they will fit it and rate it on a set of criteria set by you, while adding some comments of their own.

You can then use the best of the feedback in your marketing, making any modifications first if required.

You could also trial some promotional offers with them, and get feedback on that too.

Most plumbers working on their own account will be doing estimates, so why not have some pro-forma stationary printed that can be used for providing instant estimates? Cover the main plumbing tasks in a list that can be selected by a tick-box, e.g.

Draining down system, refilling, adding inhibitor, bleeding and testing radiators [ ]

Supply and fit hot water cylinder [ ]

Supply and fit electric element and thermostat in cylinder [ ]

Supply and fit cylinder stat [ ]

etc, etc...

With a total price box at the bottom of the Estimate/Invoice

Will need to duplicate on at least two copies.

The pad of Estimate/Invoice sheets could be provided in a executive folder, along with business cards, memo pad, etc. All overprinted with the plumbers business details, and your trade mark.

Presented in a folder like this one - I reckon you should be able to buy them for around a fiver each in bulk:-

Masters Executive Leather Conference Folder W240xD17xH320mm Black Ref 2924: Amazon.co.uk: Office Products

Providing promotions that help people to improve their business has to be good for any supplier. Plus,while marketing their businesses they will also be marketing your brand name too.

At the end of the day, your business is going to depend on the quality of your product, but taking people with you is the right way to go, and recommendation by word of mouth is a powerful marketing tool.

 

[bspareltd]

Set up a limited company in june Trappex ltd,applied for patent pending in april , opened a business account in june .
Sold a house to finance this , I was getting a rent of £550 PER MONTH , which I have lost , so its a do or die situation .
I am playing with 100k , if somebody like wolsley came along and placed a big order and said 60 days payment . I would be snookered to make further filters .
My plan is target the independents , that have up to 10 outlets.

 

[FD Powerflow]

Bspare Peter is offering some great advice, the one thing I would say is get yourself in bed with someone who has the capital and experience to help, I worked for a plastic injection molding company in my late teens (quite a long time ago) and even back then to produce a tool for a mobile phone size piece of equipment ran into the tens of thousands of pounds and that was before a single finished model had been produced.

How about speaking to F&P Wholesale or H&V who distribute across the UK, they would probably jump at the chance to have an own brand filter to compete with the likes of Magnaclean and TF1. Alternatively Calmag are on your doorstep and at least have connections into the market and provided your covered by patents they could produce or at least contribute towards the cost etc.

 

[bspareltd]

I am definitely going to BG and F and P , suggest to them , to put their name on my product

 

[petercj]

Few more ideas here ...

Have you put a business plan together yet?


If you have, hopefully its not like the ones that get mentioned on Dragon’s Den where someone says they expect to be selling 2 million units within 18 months, and then when asked how they intend to achieve their targets they don’t have a clue.

You need a hypothetical working model that takes account of all your costs – that’s down to every last penny. Which means taking account of printing, packaging, storage, delivery costs, any labour costs involved with taking on help, etc, etc. Plus a figure that you can live on, which is likely to be better put by saying a figure you can survive on. Employing people is a big step-change for any business, and allow for taking two steps backwards before you move forward again.

You need to allow for worst-case scenario, i.e. how you will survive if things don’t go as well as hoped for (include an exit strategy), and also a plan for coping with success, i.e. if the ball starts rolling, how are you going to keep up with it.

Closing your eyes and hoping to survive a white-knuckle ride is not the way to go about things, for one thing, the stress you will come under will probably bring you down if the actual business doesn’t collapse. Hopefully, those close to you are up for this adventure you are about to embark on – ‘money ain’t everything’, as the saying goes.

Have you approached any of the national merchant chains?

PTS have in-house brands that are exclusive to them – which doesn’t mean that the product is exclusive to them, just the label stuck on it. A lot of companies do exclusive in-house branding these days. Lidl and Aldi for example, have all sorts of brand names in their stores for tools, gardening equipment, cooking items, etc. etc, most of which can be traced back to them. Most of it having been commissioned by them from Chinese or German companies who stick on whatever brand name suits the retailer.

Market research includes finding out what the possibilities are.

If PTS were to take on your filter under an exclusive in-house brand name, you could be looking at a very bright future.

They will need to trial it anyway, which they will do by releasing it through a select number of branches.

If they like it, and want to run with it, and will give you a substantial order, that will open up doors for financing.

Who knows, maybe they will bear with you on the roll-out, and work to a pace that you can handle. Until you ask, you’re not going to know.

PTS are national local suppliers to BG, so the possibilities are enormous.

In terms of preparation for talking to buyers, make sure you know your competitor’s filters inside out, i.e. what they are made of, what they cost to produce, what their weak points are, what their market share is, etc.

You say you are a plumber, so that will be a big advantage because you know the practical aspects of the product, however, you need to show that you have really done your homework and have researched the other main filters on the market in the greatest of detail, both technically and in terms of their grip on the market.

In an earlier post you mentioned the O ring in MB, and the fact that you have a washer in your filter that is less prone to miss-fitting, However, the joint in MB that is sealed by the O ring is not broken once the unit is fitted. Plus MB do draw attention to the O ring in the fitting instructions, and even include a spare. However, once fitted, the joint doesn’t need disturbing again, so I don’t think the O ring is any kind of major weakness in design.

If I were in your shoes, I would do some research re the metals used in the MB body - the thing is made to survive a nuclear war, but at a price. Brass, and most of the base metals used in the manufacture of the MB body have risen in price quite steeply of late, and will continue to rise in the future – China is hoovering up all of the base metals across the globe, which is helping to raise the price.

So rather than hitting on the O ring in MB, I would be more inclined to point to the ever increasing production cost of MB. There is also the rather confused marketing re the function of MB in relation to what-does-what and why. Then thirdly, there is the magnetic flak jacket that makes the thing look like a prototype that is still in development.

When you get a meeting with the buyers from the national chains, it will be a 15 minute (or so) appointment that could change the rest of your life.

So make absolutely sure that you have prepared for such a meeting; and make sure that you show them that you know your competitors inside out.

You don’t need any fancy sales pitch, you’re a plumber who knows what he is talking about, and if you can show that you have studied the opposition in forensic detail, that will impress.

What I suggest is that you use 3 points of weakness from each of the main competitors to illustrate how your filter is a better buy.

The body on your filter won’t be stronger than the MB, but your production costs should be more stable and predictable.

With the MagnaClean: there’s the connection issues, the body issues, and the limited functionality.

I haven’t seen too much criticism of the Tf1, one plumber on here mentioned issues with the connections, so maybe that’s one point to follow up on.

Have you pulled a Tf1 apart and gone through it with a fine-tooth comb?

Get the technical people at your manufacturer’s to give you the run down on the materials used: any weak points of any kind, including production costs, etc.

Rather than just being critical of the opposition, it will be more persuasive to use their weak point to illustrate the superior qualities of your filter.

Coin the phrase: “We’ve studied the rest to make our filter the best”

Buyers don’t want to sit through a session where someone just bitches about the opposition, they want to hear why they should give your filter a trial.

So cast your net wide and deep when doing your research, and condense your findings into a presentation that will fit into 20 minutes.

Marketing is essentially about communication, and if you can communicate within 20 minutes that you have 100% belief in your product, and that you have drawn on the mistakes of the opposition to improve your filter, then I reckon you will have a very good chance of walking out with a deal.

As a priority, I suggest you get your test/demo rig up and running.

Apart from showing your filter in action, maybe fit the opposition’s filters to it to make comparisons with yours.

If you can get hold of a MagnaClean with a leaking body, put it on your rig and video the thing leaking - you don’t have to mention the name of it, as it will be recognisable to people in the trade. But using the images of it leaking to sell the superior qualities of your filter body will be a powerful selling point.

I don’t think it will take a lot of effort to improve on the rig used by Spirotech.

If it were me, I would get a decent looking boiler that’s been decommissioned due to faults, and cut away part of the front panel, open up the heat exchanger, remove the coil, and replace it with a transparent plastic look-a-like coil (for a Vaillant, the plastic pipe used with vehicle windscreen washers would be do). Put some red LEDs around the burner, and you’re ready to go. Add an Alpha pump (which will give you a range of speeds) to the pipe-work, part of which needs to be transparent, and you will be able to demonstrate on video exactly how easy it is for a heat exchanger to become blocked.

Make your rig look authentic by having a small header-tank (labelled as such) and use it to introduce debris into the system.

Video the debris working its way through the system, and show how it blocks the heat exchanger.

Then run the same routine, but with your filter fitted, hopefully showing how your filter acts to protect the heat exchanger.
Give the bore dimensions of a typical small-bore heat exchanger, and show the size of the debris that will cause a blockage – use a close-up with a pound coin in to show the relative size.

Quote the cost of replacing such a heat exchanger, while comparing such expense to the cost of your filter.

Even when people know how something happens, using visual images can be powerful in selling a product.

Also, keep in mind that your video will be seen by buyers, plumbers, and members of the public - the latter being a good reason not to assume prerequisite knowledge.

It may even be seen by boiler-makers who produce highly vulnerable heat exchangers, and wouldn’t it be nice if it shamed them into putting one of your filters in the box with the boiler?

Make sure your rig really looks the business, and has your brand and logo on it.

Having a selection of such videos on your lap-top will be a powerful force for influencing potential customers.

Apart from the actual messages communicated, the way you have gone about it should impress, and say something about your business acumen and ability to influence people.

[FONT=&amp]I reckon you’re going to be very busy![/FONT]

 

[bspareltd]

I am currently looking for a 3d video animator and negotiating a price with a website designer . I am going to try and put the website out a month before release . What do you think ?
I have seen the video on fernox tf1 , pretty impressive .

 

[doitmyself]

I found your patent application in the Journal!

Did you use the services of a Patent Lawyer/expert to check your product was patentable?

 

[petercj]

Why 3D?

Which Fernox ad do you mean - I didn't think the one with the guy in the black T-shirt showing how easy it is to pull out the magnet was up to much.

I think a well-made rig with a cut-away showing the boiler heat exchanger getting blocked by debris from a header tank would be more help in selling your filter as a protective device.

A Vaillant service engineer told me that the majority of restricted heat exchangers he sees can be linked to debris coming down from the header tank-when the system is drained.

Using graphics to illustrate the point is ok, but I think seeing the actual hardware insitu on a rig brings home the reality of having to pay out £300/£400 to have a heat exchanger replaced.

I haven't seen any other filter manufacturer giving non-metallic debris much coverage - they all seem obsessed with the size of their magnet, and its pulling power - a tad Freudian maybe!!

Something to watch when up-loading stuff to the net is file size - if you throw in all the latest bells and whistles it can mean long download times.

I put a video on You Tube that I made with my old Fuji SD cam, and I was surprised at how well it looked - certainly as good as the Fernox ad.

The beauty of filming it yourself is that you can go back and play around with things whenever the need arises.

Until you put your domain name into a search engine, no one is going to find it unless they enter the domain name directly into their browser, so no worries on that score. Just do the fine tuning before you list it on google, etc.

I put Trappex into the You Tube search box, and only a few videos came up on the game of the same name - so that looks promising.

Must be an exciting time for you? I envy you in a way, but then I couldn't be doing with the hassle these days.

They never show the blood, sweat and tears behind successful businesses on the TV, everything happens within the sweep of a frame change.

 

[bspareltd]

I have bought a domain name , trappex.co.uk about 5 months ago .I have been talking to a 3d video animator and he is saying £300 for a two and a half minutes video . I have chosen 3d because i want the prospective customers to see the inner workings of the filter
This video will be incorporated into the website .
I am planning on releasing the website in october .
You are right everybody has the emphasis on magnet size, not too much on the non magetic debris
If you notice the fernox tf1 and magnaclean has nothing to catch the non magnetic debris .
spirotech mb2 and mb3 does not have a dosing point and doesnt really catch anything.
Do you think when I finish this video , i should put this on you tube straight away or wait until october?

 

[doitmyself]

If you notice the fernox tf1 and magnaclean has nothing to catch the non magnetic debris .
spirotech mb2 and mb3 does not have a dosing point and doesnt really catch anything.

I don't think Adey, Fernox and Spirotech would agree with those assertions. You might find yourself open to litigation, in the same way that Adey was over their claims.

 

[bspareltd]

I am stating my humble opinion on their non magnetic filter section , not because im making my own filter .I have looked at there product ,in detail and there is nothing that actually catches plastic in situ.

 

[petercj]

I have bought a domain name , trappex.co.uk about 5 months ago .I have been talking to a 3d video animator and he is saying £300 for a two and a half minutes video . I have chosen 3d because i want the prospective customers to see the inner workings of the filter
This video will be incorporated into the website .
I am planning on releasing the website in october .
You are right everybody has the emphasis on magnet size, not too much on the non magetic debris
If you notice the fernox tf1 and magnaclean has nothing to catch the non magnetic debris .
spirotech mb2 and mb3 does not have a dosing point and doesnt really catch anything.
Do you think when I finish this video , i should put this on you tube straight away or wait until october?

When I think of 3D video, I imagine wearing special specs to view it with, but presumably that's not what you mean?

Might be worth checking to make sure its going to run in the average browser on the kind of average powered computer most people have. Most budget laptops (for example) are not very good on high level graphics.

Keeping file sizes reasonable is very important - if you look at Microsoft websites you will find they don't use high level graphics that much, preferring to produce web pages that will download quickly on a wide range of browsers, and on very average computers.

My computer is very average, and doesn't run BBC iPlayer in HD too well, god knows what it would make of 3D - unless of course we are talking at cross purposes.

I've got a MB2, and as you say, it doesn't have a dosing point, but it does spit out dirty water when the valve is opened, although I have no way of telling if it is fully protective of the heat exchanger.

When you've got your test rig up and running, I'd be very interested to see any tests you do on MB2, or 3, if it comes to that.

Testing for debris should be easy enough, e.g. if you put particles big enough to block a small bore heat exchanger into your test system and MB lets them pass, then it's not doing the job.

With magnetite, I guess you'd need to add a measured amount of magnetite into the system as they do on the Spirotech video, run it for a set period of time, and then get a water sample analysed by Sentinel, or someone similar.

Running the same test on all of the main filters around should produce some interesting data.

Does the surface area of your magnet compare to the MagnaClean and Tf1?

The way the magnetite clings to the magnetic tube in the MagnaClean videos suggests to me that it's a metal tube with round magnets inside, spaced about an inch apart - hence the undulating pattern in the clinging magnetite. But I've never had the pleasure of pulling one apart, so I don't actually know.

I was open minded when I bought the MB2 - I thought as long as it can't do any harm, it's worth giving it a go.

I see the Tf1 has an award from Corgi - I wonder how much that cost them? lol ... (only joking your Honour!)

 

[bspareltd]

If you have a look at www.dirtmagiq.co.uk . That is a impressive 3d animated video .
A mb3 in plastic .
i bet spirotech regret not taking a patent out on the spirotech mb2.
My magnet will be similar to fernox tf1 .

 

[petercj]

If you have a look at www.dirtmagiq.co.uk . That is a impressive 3d animated video .
A mb3 in plastic .
i bet spirotech regret not taking a patent out on the spirotech mb2.
My magnet will be similar to fernox tf1 .

Well that ran on my computer ok - but not sure I would call it 3D.

I did wonder about having an automatic air bleed in the design, I see the dirtmagiq has a manual one.

Apart from that, it looks like a MB2 by another name.

An LED to show that the filter is full would be a nice touch, but would need a small battery.

Something else that occurred to me was that while most plumbers will appreciate the value of a filter on a boiler, some female end-users may not be too keen on having a weird looking lump hanging on the pipe leading to their boiler when they've paid out several thousand pounds for their dream kitchen - so how about having a cover available as an accessory. A white plastic box that sat on the filter would probably do the job. Probably won't make sense to most blokes, but it might to some females, and it might increase your edge a little.

Just had a quick look at the availability of Trappex domain names, and most of them are available - you might want to buy up a few while they are still going - they are cheap enough on 1&1. Could be advantageous later on to have a few domain names handy, plus it helps to keep things simple re search engine listings.

1&1 Internet - Domain Check Results

I see that trappex.com is a hardware company.

 

[bspareltd]

That is why I have made it in white , so it hopefully matches the white boiler and kitchen units.
That is an idea of an full indicator , but how?

 

[petercj]

That is why I have made it in white , so it hopefully matches the white boiler and kitchen units.
That is an idea of an full indicator , but how?

A float that triggers a micro-switch in the top maybe.

White is a good idea - is there a pink alternative? lol