Flow restriction from magnaclean/tf1

[on31ll]

Got a customer who loves to read the internet and research everything and he has asked me to fit a magnaclean to his central heating! Simple yes ! But he is saying to me he has read that the magna clean is the best for magnetic but no good for non magnetic crap ! So he wants a mangna clean and after that a tf1 fitted ! Other than flow restrictions any issues ? I have talked and talked to my hearts content about this but he is set on this !

 

[ADEY]

If your customer is particularly concerned with non magnetic debris you could recommend that you install a MagnaClean TwinTech. MagnaClean TwinTech can be installed on any central heating system and, as the name suggests, possesses exceptionally powerful magnetic and non-magnetic filtration characteristics. TwinTech is available in 22mm black and is ADEY's most advanced, high capacity filter. From our experience MagnaClean TwinTech is the perfect partner for central heating systems that have specific problems with non-magnetic debris. It's also particularly well suited for open-vented systems; where plastic pipework is fitted or underfloor heating. Central heating systems of this nature tend to have more problems and a higher volume of non-magnetic debris in suspension. In order to achieve the best protection for the boiler, we recommend that MagnaClean TwinTech is fitted between the last radiator and the boiler.

 

[petercj]

I've got a Magna-Booster that seems to work well and does what it says on the can.

I can see why the Magna Clean would be better for attracting magnetite due to the larger magnet, but then as magnetite is magnetic anyway, most of it will stay in the bottom of metal radiators.

As the Magna-Booster pulls out the relatively small amount of magnetite that does get into suspension, and also other debris, with the filter being by-passed if becoming blocked, it seems a good choice to me.

Paid £50 for it on ebay - new, boxed , etc. Managed to negotiate carriage inclusive for that too.

Bloke said I was a hard man to deal with, but gave me good feedback anyway!

 

[on31ll]

I never thought of the twin tech ! Ive actually fitted one to a friends but never thought of it to tell the customer ! Im sure he will settle for the twintech

 

[petercj]

I was told by someone at BG that they stop fitting MagnaClean because they had trouble with them and now fit MagnaBooster.

I don't have any long-term experience of either, but the MagnaBooster is very solid and well made, and seems to be working well. It's only been on a short while.

A good efficiency test would be to fit both in a return pipe and see if the one nearest the boiler picked up magnetite/debris that was missed by the first in line - swapping around to test the efficiency of both units.

Could do the same with the Tf1.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Got a customer who loves to read the internet and research everything and he has asked me to fit a magnaclean to his central heating! Simple yes ! But he is saying to me he has read that the magna clean is the best for magnetic but no good for non magnetic crap ! So he wants a mangna clean and after that a tf1 fitted ! Other than flow restrictions any issues ? I have talked and talked to my hearts content about this but he is set on this !

For best result offer to customer manual flush + power flush + magna clean !

 

[petercj]

Or better still, fit new radiators throughout, and leave a Magna Cleanse permanently installed with a tf1 on the return!

Can't be too careful with these small bore heat exchangers.

:yes:

 

[GrahamM]

Got a customer who loves to read the internet and research everything and he has asked me to fit a magnaclean to his central heating! Simple yes ! But he is saying to me he has read that the magna clean is the best for magnetic but no good for non magnetic crap ! So he wants a mangna clean and after that a tf1 fitted ! Other than flow restrictions any issues ? I have talked and talked to my hearts content about this but he is set on this !

At the end of the day the customer is always right.
You have advised. I can't see it causing any great problems, but if it does the customer wants it that way.
Take the cash and do the job.

I was told by someone at BG that they stop fitting MagnaClean because they had trouble with them and now fit MagnaBooster.

I don't have any long-term experience of either, but the MagnaBooster is very solid and well made, and seems to be working well. It's only been on a short while.

A good efficiency test would be to fit both in a return pipe and see if the one nearest the boiler picked up magnetite/debris that was missed by the first in line - swapping around to test the efficiency of both units.

Could do the same with the Tf1.

Correct.
I have come across dozens that are leaking and a load where the magnet shears off just bellow the cap and no more than few years old.
Magna cleans are junk but in their defense, I do believe they work slightly better than the magna boosters.

 

[petercj]

At the end of the day the customer is always right.
You have advised. I can't see it causing any great problems, but if it does the customer wants it that way.
Take the cash and do the job.

Correct.
I have come across dozens that are leaking and a load where the magnet shears off just bellow the cap and no more than few years old.
Magna cleans are junk but in their defense, I do believe they work slightly better than the magna boosters.

Do you think the magnet in the Magna Booster is too weak?

Vaillant engineer told me that the majority of restricted heat exchangers he sees can be linked to opening up the system and debris being downloaded from the header tank, or debris entering the system when opened up in some other way.

Which suggests that having a filter that will catch non-magnetic debris as well is essential.

As the majority of magnetite created in rads is going to settle in the bottom of the radiator it comes from, I've wondered whether the larger magnet in the MagnaClean might be over-kill.

My first thought when considering the MagnaBooster was whether it could cause flow problems if the filter becomes full, but the manufacturer's claim the flow will just by-pass the filter if it becomes restricted. This really was my first priority, i.e. that the MB could do no harm, and that it can easily be drained. The second criterion was that it should filter out non-metalic debris; the third factor being that the magnet should be strong enough to filter out the magnetite as it passes through. The main function being to protect the boiler, not to keep the system free of magnetite, which I can't see the MagnaClean doing anyway, bearing in mind the fact that most of it will stay in the bottom of the rads, and be kept to the minimum by chemical inhibitor anyway.

I've got MagnaBooster 2, and I see that MB3 has got a bigger magnet attached to the outside - so I've wondered if that suggests that the magnet in MB2 is a tad weak for the job. Or have they done it in an attempt to counter the advertising play MagnaClean have put on their larger magnet size - which on this forum seems to have worked quite well, although the Tf1 seems quite popular too. I've not laid hands on a Tf1, but from what I can make of it the magnet is unlikely to be any bigger than the MB2. From what I've read on here, the marketing of the Tf1 is pretty intense, with offers of chemicals thrown in, etc. Plus, I suppose Fernox is a well established and trusted brand, and what they produce generally is all about system cleansing and maintenance, and maybe that causes people to put faith in the Tf1 rather than the MB.

I do like the solid feel of the MB, and also the look of it. In that respect I think it stands ahead of the rest. Although of course the most important thing is whether it does the job it was made to do.

Which remains to be seen in the longer term.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Omg it is a filter only ..... clean your rads +power flush them + Inhibitor .
This is not some sort of supper dupper engineering product , it is designed to try and to extend the live of boiler / system that is all !!!

 

[petercj]

Omg it is a filter only ..... clean your rads +power flush them + Inhibitor .
This is not some sort of supper dupper engineering product , it is designed to try and to extend the live of boiler / system that is all !!!

More to extend the life of the boiler than the rest of the system perhaps.

If the MB and Tf1 magnets are adequate for removing the magnetite from the water returning to the boiler, then the MagnaClean "size matters" argument falls down.

A filter might not be a super-dupper piece of engineering, but if Rolls Royce were to build a car with no filters on the fuel lines it would be regarded as incompetence, and telling their customers that they should clean their fuel tanks out more often would be to add insult to injury.

Gods knows what the design engineers at Vaillant are thinking of by not building a filter into their boilers with small bore heat exchangers. A cynical view might say that they sell more heat exchangers by not doing so, but at a huge cost to their reputation as being one of the top manufacturer's of boilers.

Personally, I think modern boilers are quite impressive, watching the Vaillant engineer put the boiler into diagnostic mode and seeing the information he was able to access was very interesting.

But how the intelligence that created such a piece of equipment manages to leave the ship vulnerable for a ha'porth of tar beats me, i.e. a highly sophisticate piece of technology gets bolted on to a crude system with no protection from the hazards that are commonly found in that system.

 

[jam1979]

u could also try the spirotech filter theyre supposed to be very good

 

[southcoastboile]

If your customer is particularly concerned with non magnetic debris you could recommend that you install a MagnaClean TwinTech. MagnaClean TwinTech can be installed on any central heating system and, as the name suggests, possesses exceptionally powerful magnetic and non-magnetic filtration characteristics. TwinTech is available in 22mm black and is ADEY's most advanced, high capacity filter. From our experience MagnaClean TwinTech is the perfect partner for central heating systems that have specific problems with non-magnetic debris. It's also particularly well suited for open-vented systems; where plastic pipework is fitted or underfloor heating. Central heating systems of this nature tend to have more problems and a higher volume of non-magnetic debris in suspension. In order to achieve the best protection for the boiler, we recommend that MagnaClean TwinTech is fitted between the last radiator and the boiler. Your customer will find this information at www.adey.co.uk if he would like to read up on this product.

I think you should have brass threads on the magnacleans and improve the valves that dont have a shut off point and are prone to leaking.
I always use magnacleans but these are some things that reallly could be better.

 

[Roger Welton]

I agree with south coast

 

[bspareltd]

There is a plastic version of the spirotech mb3 released by (caleffi) altecnic dirtmagiq.
In my opinion it will not work as good because of the external magnet , covering less surface area.
Im on with my filter , hopefully on schedule to release on 1st of november 2012

 

[petercj]

There is a plastic version of the spirotech mb3 released by (caleffi) altecnic dirtmagiq.
In my opinion it will not work as good because of the external magnet , covering less surface area.
Im on with my filter , hopefully on schedule to release on 1st of november 2012

I like the heavy brass body of the MagnaBooster - being one of it's out-standing features imo.

Other than wanting to increase the size of the magnet, and perhaps making the filter easier to empty by removing the magnet first, I can't see why they've put the magnet on the outside of the MB3. Looks like an after-thought to me, and suggests that the magnet in MB2 is inadequate for the task.

A plastic body allows a visual check on the contents, but personally I much prefer the security of the heavy brass body on the MB.

I expect Dyson will produce an all singing and dancing version next - bound to have a ball in it somewhere, and a plastic body to see what's going on ... oh, and made in China!


What are the USP's of your filter?

 

[bspareltd]

The USP of my filter is : (1) flow management system ie the path of the water has to go through , the non magnetic filter section without beening blocked
(2) Dose filter in situ . For example if you wanted to pour inhibitor in a magnaclean , you would turn off isolating valves , take lid off and you would have the canister full of water . You would need a sponge to take water out ( not very practical ) .
Once you have done this , and put the lid back on ,your 'o' ring will always leak (another cost)
With my product turn isolating valves off , open drain valve to empty canister ( something magnaclean hasn't thought of ), remove bleeding valve and pour in inhibitor via a funnel.
(3) Service appliance without opening lid .
If you look at magnaclean and fernox tf1 , they use 'o' rings for there lids .
I have designed this so a washer fits and seals lid . Remember a 'o' ring covers less cross section area than a washer thus more chance of leaking.
The worst design is the magnaclean , because when you turn the lid of the magnaclean there is chance of the rubber 'o' ring buckling as you turn the lid.
I went to a baxi training day in warrington last week . The trainer Richard ,were on about filters , I showed him my prototype and he was impressed .
He stated that baxi are looking to pull away from fernox , I may have an opportunity.
There was another guy at this training day that were interested in buying a share into the business , but I declined.
The fernox Tf1 claim catching non magnetic particles, but the patent inspector has declined there invention , so i think fernox are breaking the descriptions act.
My product is designed in huddersfield and tooling made in huddersfield , made by a plastic injection moulding company in huddersfield .
I can proudly place a union jack on the front of the filter.
If the big filter companies came knocking at my door , i would license this to them.

 

[petercj]

The USP of my filter is : (1) flow management system ie the path of the water has to go through , the non magnetic filter section without beening blocked
(2) Dose filter in situ . For example if you wanted to pour inhibitor in a magnaclean , you would turn off isolating valves , take lid off and you would have the canister full of water . You would need a sponge to take water out ( not very practical ) .
Once you have done this , and put the lid back on ,your 'o' ring will always leak (another cost)
With my product turn isolating valves off , open drain valve to empty canister ( something magnaclean hasn't thought of ), remove bleeding valve and pour in inhibitor via a funnel.
(3) Service appliance without opening lid .
If you look at magnaclean and fernox tf1 , they use 'o' rings for there lids .
I have designed this so a washer fits and seals lid . Remember a 'o' ring covers less cross section area than a washer thus more chance of leaking.
The worst design is the magnaclean , because when you turn the lid of the magnaclean there is chance of the rubber 'o' ring buckling as you turn the lid.
I went to a baxi training day in warrington last week . The trainer Richard ,were on about filters , I showed him my prototype and he was impressed .
He stated that baxi are looking to pull away from fernox , I may have an opportunity.
There was another guy at this training day that were interested in buying a share into the business , but I declined.
The fernox Tf1 claim catching non magnetic particles, but the patent inspector has declined there invention , so i think fernox are breaking the descriptions act.
My product is designed in huddersfield and tooling made in huddersfield , made by a plastic injection moulding company in huddersfield .
I can proudly place a union jack on the front of the filter.
If the big filter companies came knocking at my door , i would license this to them.

Sounds good - other than the plastic body.

Have you tried selling it to boiler manufacturer's (like Vaillant) who fit small-bore heat exchangers?

 

[SafeGasInstall]

filter is a filter end of ..... bottom line is cost of actual filter

every one will fit the one that is reasonable on price and quality

it is a filter end of the day if system gets cleaned or has been maintained regularly than any filter will do

 

[bspareltd]

i spoke to a retail buyer over the phone about my filter and he stated magnaclean and fernox tf1 is overpriced . If I can come under there price they would look at it .
Magnaclean and fernox tf1 sell there filters to the merchants from £52 to £56 , depending on quantity.
I will be introducing my filter to the merchants at £46 each, so that should make an impact .
If I sold 1000 units a month I would be content !

 

[petercj]

i spoke to a retail buyer over the phone about my filter and he stated magnaclean and fernox tf1 is overpriced . If I can come under there price they would look at it .
Magnaclean and fernox tf1 sell there filters to the merchants from £52 to £56 , depending on quantity.
I will be introducing my filter to the merchants at £46 each, so that should make an impact .
If I sold 1000 units a month I would be content !

What kind of guarantee will you give with your filter?

Spirotech MagnaBooster comes with a 20 year guarantee.

I wonder why BG switched to Spirotech MB after experiencing difficulties with MagnaClean, and not the Tf1.

Perhaps the experience of having to go back and change so many failed MagaCleans served to focus their minds on durability.

Putting something on a system to protect the most expensive element, and then finding that it turns out to be the weakest link, has to be embarrassing for a company like BG.

Competitive pricing has seen many things fall in quality over the years despite advances in technology that should have improved them, domestic washing machines being a classic example.

Moving down the price scale nearly always means a trade-off in quality, and there are a lot of people who know that, and will avoid doing it.

It saddens me to say it, but seeing a Union Jack on such a product does nothing to reassure me re quality - if it's made in Germany, Denmark, or is Swiss, etc, that might.

 

[kozak1968]

I prefer the TF1, they are easier to clean than magclean and the valves dont leak when you touch them.

 

[bspareltd]

I will be providing a 2 year guarantee.
Magnaclean failed on the valves but the damage is done .
The quality of my product is nylon 6 glass filled , exactly the same as fernox tf1

 

[petercj]

I will be providing a 2 year guarantee.
Magnaclean failed on the valves but the damage is done .
The quality of my product is nylon 6 glass filled , exactly the same as fernox tf1

Well good luck with it - I hope you make your fortune with your filter.

What's it called?

 

[bspareltd]

look out for TRAPPEX

Well good luck with it - I hope you make your fortune with your filter.

What's it called?

 

[petercj]

"Trappex" is a board game - have you checked out usage as a name for trading under?

 

[bspareltd]

The company is called trappex ltd , we havent thought of a name of the filter. Any suggestions!

 

[petercj]

The company is called trappex ltd , we havent thought of a name of the filter. Any suggestions!

The reason I mentioned it is because I googled to see if you had a website, and a load of stuff about Trappex games came up. Which could be a problem if you are marketing under that name and hope to get listed with the major search engines.

As for a name for your filter...

What emphasis do you intend to put on the marketing of it?

For example, will you stress the properties it has for cleaning the system and gathering magnetite, as MagnaClean have.

Or, will you steer more towards the protection it can provide for heat exchangers by trapping debris, magnetite, etc. Obviously all are relevant, but you could put the emphasis on boiler protection and call it HexProtector, HexGuard, or something of that nature that stresses the protection it gives to the boiler, rather than just being a filter that cleans the water that passes through it.

Yesterday I revisited the marketing material on Spirotech MagnaBooster (mainly because I've got one) and with MB2 they put great emphasis on the filtering function of the unit, both in relation to magnetite and non-metallic debris, and they present the magnet as having a secondary role in retaining magnetite in the sump of the filter.

But with MB3, they have put more emphasis on the magnetic properties of the unit, and stuck a whopping great magnet on the outside, which to me looks like an after-thought, and imo looks pants.

My impression is that the marketing of Spirotech's MB has been strongly influenced by the need to compete with MagnaClean, and that maybe they have lost sight of the all round benefits of MB. Which if taken in combination, make it a better buy in terms of protecting small bore heat exchangers from various types of debris (on paper at least). However, the information given on the Spirotech website refers to making the system "more efficient", and doesn't say very much about protecting (small bore) heat exchangers from debris entering the system.

If you are confident that your filter will protect a small bore heat exchanger from various forms of debris, I think that would be a very good focus for your marketing campaign, and naming it accordingly would be power to the cause.

I reckon a name starting with 'Hex' would be relevant and have a ring to it - HexPro (as in protector). HexClear perhaps? Both having an obvious association with Trappex.

 

[bspareltd]

Thank you for your feedback , I will take that into consideration.
I have been deliberetly asking the merchants which of the filters are the most popular .
They are stating at the moment ,fernox tf1 and magnacleans sell well .
This is my opinion ,the magnet on the spirotech mb3 and the new dirt magiq are not that strong.
We will be sampling the first batch in October .
My email address is [email protected] , if you give me an email around October , i will send a filter out to you for free .
Let me know how you would market a new product on a shoe string!

 

[petercj]

Thank you for your feedback , I will take that into consideration.
I have been deliberetly asking the merchants which of the filters are the most popular .
They are stating at the moment ,fernox tf1 and magnacleans sell well .
This is my opinion ,the magnet on the spirotech mb3 and the new dirt magiq are not that strong.
We will be sampling the first batch in October .
My email address is [email protected] , if you give me an email around October , i will send a filter out to you for free .
Let me know how you would market a new product on a shoe string!

I would make maximum use of the Internet to market the product on a shoe string.

A few ideas here ...

First of all you need a name to launch your brand with ... as an example...


............................................................................................................
HEX+PRO TECHNOLOGY [+]


Double Hex+Protect Super-Flow Technology keeps heat exchangers clear and clean of magnetite and other harmful debris.


Advanced drain and instant access design enables easy top-up of system inhibitor chemicals.


Easy to fit and maintain from a British manufacturer, plus a 2-year warranty.

............................................................................................................

A short and concise intro to your product presented consistently in all your advertising, maybe with a logo ... [+] was the nearest I could get to a heat exchanger logo on a standard keyboard.

You can set up a digital shop-window on a shoestring by setting up a website with a link to You-Tube where potential customers can view a demo video showing off your product.

You could make up a demo rig like the one in this Spirotrap video


SpiroTrap MB2 Demonstration (Domestic) - YouTube

Use a Handycam, or similar, and Windows Movie Maker, to construct a video showing a demo of your filter. A good selling point would be to show how your filter picks up debris and magnetite missed by other filters when second in line to them on a transparent pipe. A see-through heat exchanger made up of Perspex pipe would be good for showing effects of missed magnetite and debris. Using editing facility in Windows MM to create build up of residue and blockages.


Also, show demo of drain and top-up facility.


Having a link from You Tube back to your website will enable people to get further details about the filter, price, contact, etc.


If you don’t fancy making the video yourself, or want more advanced graphics, you should be able to find a keen amateur on You Tube near you who will do it for a small charge.

Once you have your shop-window set up on the Internet you can decide on targets.

Why not aim high and see if BG will give it a trial?

The heavy brass body of MB is sure to see the cost of them shoot up as the cost of such materials consistently increases. And the exterior magnet on MB3 does look like an after-thought – bit of a dog’s dinner if you ask me.

So if your filter can fit the bill for BG, maybe they would put their own badge on it, and run with it – nothing ventured, nothing gained, as the saying goes.


As for general pointers on marketing of the filter: I think you should aim to sell it as better than the others, rather than “as good but cheaper”, which is the impression I have got from the way you have talked about it on this site.

Pick up on the weak points of the others, and emphasis how your filter is better, e.g. a bigger magnet than MB2; better body construction and connections than MagnaClean, etc.

One way of pulling in small one-man band plumbers could be to offer a marketing package for their own business with every ten units taken, e.g. business cards, letter heads, flyers, etc, all carrying recognition of them as Hex+Protect Technology agents. You could have a register of agents on your website, and your website could have a password protected link for HPT agents to access further help with marketing, i.e. of your filter and their businesses.

Any advertising you do will have a note of your website, and your website could have a post code finder for HPT agents.

Presumably you will be selling such packages to the merchants, who will be distributors and pull in the one-man-bands. You could do bonus offers when 50, 100, units, etc, have been taken – clothing maybe, with the Hex-Protect badge on, and the plumber’s business name.

Include a sticker for the boiler with every filter carrying the ‘Hex+Protected Technology’ assurance trade mark. Also, a plasticised reusable sticker on the filter for due top-up dates. A badged marker pen included in the box would be a nice touch, and would get the brand name circulating some more.

[FONT=&amp]Just a few ideas to consider.

If you can persuade a national chain of merchants to give it a go based on being better as a filter, and with a better profit margin, then the 'rolling of the ball' will depend on the quality of your filter.

One thing to consider is whether your manufacturer could cope if you did get a big order?

It wouldn't be the first time a business has fallen down due to being too successful, too quickly.
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