When does a room become a compartment?

[moogwai]

Got pulled up by a manager the other day as on a job i diagnosed a glowworm ultimate 50bf with a faulty gas valve.
Now the room the boiler was installed in had a wc and a basin in and it never crossed my mind that this room was a compartment and my manager is calling me in as he says i shouldve ar'd the boiler as the room had no additional ventilation.
The room is also outside in a covered walk way at the side of a house
Just wanted to know what you guys think.

 

[Plumb Ugly]

To me if you can open the door walk in and close it behind you and still have room to work on the boiler its a room not a compartment

 

[mikegas]

Below 5m3 is what I was taught

 

[moogwai]

Below 5cm3 is what I was taught

Dont think a boiler would fit in a room that small!! lol.

 

[Barry98]

It's the qubic size but I can't remember what it is is have o look it up someone will know

 

[mikegas]

Dont think a boiler would fit in a room that small!! lol.

Lol just edited it too late

 

[Barry98]

That was quick there lol , got answer I suspect hey ment m3

 

[Kev the gas]

Is the flue position correct ? Not into a carport ect ?

Sounds very harsh to Ar for that.

It must be a very big compartment to get a wc and sink in it,

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

if you can fit a table and a chair in there its not a compartment

 

[villa_tom]

I would have thought it was a room you where in, not a compartment. Plus I think it's harsh to AR. it'd have thought NCS would be ok if they wanted to class this space as a compartment, due to the size.

Hows it going at the AA anyway mate?

 

[moogwai]

Yeah flue is fine....on an outside wall into their garden....as previously said i think to ar the boiler it would be harsh but my manager obviously thinks different. Have a meeting with him on wednesday...will let u know what he says. Thanks for yer thoughts lads.

 

[stevetheplumber]

corgi man told me years ago if you can get in with the boiler and shut the door behind you its a room although i have seen a cubic measurement mentioned on here as nowdays no one is allowed to make a judgement if there is a toilet and basin in there as well as a boiler its almost certainly a room
i would get the definative answer monday morning from gas safe so as to be ready for the managers questions either way

 

[Barry98]

Wouldit not be classed as a cloak room ? With it have facility's in

 

[mikegas]

5m3 is from bpec, but it says its a rule of thumb

 

[stevetheplumber]

i would definitely argue that it is a cloak room regardless of size im sure if it was your managers house and he was selling it he would describe it as a cloak ROOM

 

[Rob Sale]

Viper and bpec books say 5m3.

 

[AWheating]

its a room, you dont take a dump in a cupboard LOL

 

[herp_lee]

That is never AR in a million years.

 

[AlexGas]

Check it out:

From current BS 6798:2009
Specification for installation and maintenance of gas-fired boilers of rated input not exceeding 70 kW net

5.3.2 Boiler compartment installations
5.3.2.1 The boiler compartment shall be a fixed rigid structure, the internal surfaces of which conform to the boiler installation instructions.

COMMENTARY AND RECOMMENDATIONS ON 5.3.2.1
If the boiler manufacturer’s installation instructions do not give specific advice, then any internal surface of the boiler compartment which is of combustible material should either be at least 75 mm from any part of the boiler or should be lined with non-combustible material. Methods of determining whether a material can be described as combustible or non-combustible are given in BS 476-22. For further advice, see HSE publication, Safety in the installation and use of gas systems and appliances [14].
5.3.2.2 The compartment shall permit access for inspection and servicing of the boiler and any ancillary equipment. A notice shall be fixed in a prominent position within the compartment to warn against its use as a storage cupboard. The compartment shall be fitted with a door that will permit withdrawal of the boiler and any ancillary equipment.


Your boiler is RS, you are good to go.

 

[moogwai]

I would have thought it was a room you where in, not a compartment. Plus I think it's harsh to AR. it'd have thought NCS would be ok if they wanted to class this space as a compartment, due to the size.

Hows it going at the AA anyway mate?

AA is ok Tom......would much rather be working for myself though....bleedin phone aint stopped ringing since ive been there

 

[AlexGas]

In case of an Open-flued appliance (moogwai, your boiler is RS):

From current BS 5440-2:2009
Flueing and ventilation for gas appliances of rated input not exceeding 70 kW net
(1st, 2nd and 3rd family gases) –
Part 2: Specification for the installation and maintenance of ventilation provision for gas appliances

6.3.2 Open-flued appliance installed in an appliance compartment
...
...

COMMENTARY ON 6.3.2.1
The purpose of the air vents in an appliance compartment is to provide air for combustion, correct operation of the flue and appliance compartment cooling. It should be noted that small appliance compartments are susceptible to vitiation caused by down-draught and so great care should be taken to ensure that the ventilation provision conforms to 6.3.2 or the manufacturer’s instructions.

Small rooms, such as individual WCs, cloakrooms, understair spaces, are not normally considered appliance compartments. However, like small appliance compartments, they are susceptible to vitiation caused by down-draught. For this reason, and in cases where the heat loss from the appliance could lead to high ambient temperatures, appliance compartment ventilation should be considered.


Your boss could have a case here.

 

[moogwai]

In case of an Open-flued appliance (moogwai, your boiler is RS):

From current BS 5440-2:2009
Flueing and ventilation for gas appliances of rated input not exceeding 70 kW net
(1st, 2nd and 3rd family gases) –
Part 2: Specification for the installation and maintenance of ventilation provision for gas appliances

6.3.2 Open-flued appliance installed in an appliance compartment
...
...

COMMENTARY ON 6.3.2.1
The purpose of the air vents in an appliance compartment is to provide air for combustion, correct operation of the flue and appliance compartment cooling. It should be noted that small appliance compartments are susceptible to vitiation caused by down-draught and so great care should be taken to ensure that the ventilation provision conforms to 6.3.2 or the manufacturer’s instructions.

Small rooms, such as individual WCs, cloakrooms, understair spaces, are not normally considered appliance compartments. However, like small appliance compartments, they are susceptible to vitiation caused by down-draught. For this reason, and in cases where the heat loss from the appliance could lead to high ambient temperatures, appliance compartment ventilation should be considered.


Your boss could have a case here.

awww....crap.

 

[AlexGas]

Looks like it can be much less than 5m[SUP]3[/SUP]. Cos, accordingly to the BS, you only need 75mm clearance around the boiler.

 

[AlexGas]

Go with MI.

 

[dancinplumba]

Looks like it can be much less than 5m[SUP]3[/SUP]. Cos, accordingly to the BS, you only need 75mm clearance around the boiler.

to combustibles

 

[AlexGas]

to combustibles

It says:

Clearance around the sides, front, above and below the appliance shall be provided in accordance with the appliance manufacturer’s instructions, or, in the absence of any such instructions, these clearances shall be a minimum of 75 mm to the sides, above, below and in front of the appliance.

 

[AlexGas]

It should say to combustible material as in BS 6789.

Back to BS 6798:2009

5.3.2 Boiler compartment installations
...

COMMENTARY AND RECOMMENDATIONS ON 5.3.2.1
If the boiler manufacturer’s installation instructions do not give specific advice, then any internal surface of the boiler compartment which is of combustible material should either be at least 75 mm from any part of the boiler or should be lined with non-combustible material. Methods of determining whether a material can be described as combustible or non-combustible are given in BS 476-22. For further advice, see HSE publication, Safety in the installation and use of gas systems andappliances [14].

 

[AlexGas]

Got pulled up by a manager the other day as on a job i diagnosed a glowworm ultimate 50bf with a faulty gas valve.
Now the room the boiler was installed in had a wc and a basin in and it never crossed my mind that this room was a compartment and my manager is calling me in as he says i shouldve ar'd the boiler as the room had no additional ventilation.
The room is also outside in a covered walk way at the side of a house
Just wanted to know what you guys think.

Did you read your CORGI book, page 78? It tells you what a compartment is. There's nothing about m3 though.

 

[AlexGas]

Was reading the BS again. Here's more:

From current BS 6798:2009
Specification for installation and maintenance of gas-fired boilers of rated input not exceeding 70 kW net

4.4 Location
COMMENTARY AND RECOMMENDATIONS ON 4.4
Room-sealed boilers may be installed in any room or space. It is not recommended that any type of boiler be installed in an understairs cupboard, bathroom or shower room, bedroom or bed-sitting room, or within a toilet or cloakroom, but such installations are acceptable subject to the requirements of 5.3.4 to 5.3.7.

5.3.4 Understairs cupboard installations
...
5.3.7 Toilet and cloakroom installations
The air vents from any boiler installed within a toilet or cloakroom shall be direct to outside air.

COMMENTARY AND RECOMMENDATIONS ON 5.3.7
Installation within a toilet or cloakroom should only be considered if there is no alternative location.

 

[AlexGas]

Mi for your boiler:
Where the boiler is fitted in a cupboard or compartment,
permanent high and low level ventilation must be provided.

If there are no signs of distress - it's never AR, your boss would be wrong! See the TB001.

 

[GrahamM]

Firstly, your boss is a numpty! Why would this be "AR"?

Secondly, I was taught to use a common sense approach in classifying as a compartment and the general rules are it is a compartment if it is not a normal habitable room(eg.broom cupboard) and is less than 5m³ volume.

 

[desrob]

i came across 38kw cf floorstanding boiler in a garage,should it have sized ventilation,as this did not ,been there for years no issues

 

[Rob Sale]

is it open flued or room sealed?

 

[tamz]

i came across 38kw cf floorstanding boiler in a garage,should it have sized ventilation,as this did not ,been there for years no issues

It still needs purpose provided ventilation even though there is probably enough adventitious ventilation.

Open flue boilers can't be fitted in a garage up here, the reason being flammable liquids (eg petrol) may be stored in a garage and an OF boiler could ignite it (which seems sensible enough to me)

 

[desrob]

is it open flued or room sealed?

cf,open flued if you like.

 

[stevetheplumber]

have you talked with your manager yet like to know the outcome of this if he over rules you id be tempted to call gas safe in

 

[moogwai]

Met the gaffer yesterday...to be fair he's a good a bloke who's only just come off the tools. Was still adament it's a compartment cos it was under 5m/3 but because it was an out side toilet and seldom used and he did tell me that when he did the post complete inspection he took one of the doors off ( the toilet had those salon doors on) so he didn't have to ar the boiler and advised the owner on the ventilation regs.

Nothing came of it and was just happy to have a chat about the regs....which to be honest did me some good as i needed brushing up on some stuff.....so all's well that ends well.

thanks a bunch for all your input lads.

 

[arran197]

I thought you said it was a BF or balanced flued?

 

[moogwai]

I thought you said it was a BF or balanced flued?

It was but mi's state cos its in a compartment it needs additional ventilation.

 

[arran197]

But did you have the MIs? In the absence, don't you consult the gas regs, which states that any RS boiler can be installed anywhere, but a consideration should be made before installing?

Having said that, BF boilers do get very hot don't they.

 

[moogwai]

no didn't have the mi's at the time didn't even give it a thought to be honest beings as like you say the boiler is room sealed and it was as far as i was concerned at the time it was a room and not a compartment! easy but silly mistake to make.

 

[kirkgas]

A BF boiler in a compartment with no vents must only be NCS, when would it be AR?

 

[Reg Man]

A BF boiler in a compartment with no vents must only be NCS, when would it be AR?

here here kirk. Balanced flue boiler compartment ventilation, thats if it is a compartment require for cooling air only. So if theres a toilet and basin in this space under 5m3. I think I would be more concerned with burning my bum on the boiler.

 

[Rob Sale]

it can't 5m cubed it its got a bog in it, it must be 5m squared floor space.

 

[GrahamM]

It was but mi's state cos its in a compartment it needs additional ventilation.

Dont know if you are confussing combustion ventilation with cooling ventilation?
If this is a Balanced Flue(BF) boiler as you state, this would only require cooling ventilation in an enclosed space and in absence of this would only ever be a NCS situation. This would never be AR!