Spillage Test

[amy]

Hi Guys,

I was fortunate to witness a spillage test the other day on an o/f fire with a paddle fan installed in the same room. My engineer started the test, after 5 mins of heating the fire with all doors/windows closed and fan on full, the front cover was not in place so he could perform the spillage test, straightaway the flame pic changed from a stable flame to one that looked very floppy which was at times being blown all the way underneath the burner and wafting out from the sides of the fire. A window was opened as all the reference books state but this made little difference, the engineer shut off supply at the restrictor elbow and capped with plug. I guess I expected the opening of the window to at some point rectify the problem, but it didn't.....Any of you had that happen.
Another thing that surprised us both was that the fan had been fitted for the past 6 years and owner said never had any problemns when tested in the past, they did however state that they had never witnessed any other engineer turning the paddle fan on. AMY

 

[ktmam]

How often do we hear "Never had any problems before!". When it comes to fans and/or extractors I fear it may be true that many don't test properly. A good learning experience Amy that will stick with you.

ACOP Appendix 1: Domestic and other small scale flues: 3(L)
.....The test should be conducted in accordance with the appliance manufacturer instructions, and take into account any factors which may adversely affect flue efficiency, eg operation of extractor fans or forced air heating systems in the room housing the appliance or any adjoining room (with interconnecting doors open).

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

as said amy a good learning experience when ever a spillage test is carried out it must be done with any window fans running this also includes kitchen hood style extractor fans(even nebilizers can effect the test) i have had situations like you have experienced before and yes we should all work to the same standard but thats the difference between professionals and cowboys (we can sleep at night) bet you already know what this installation is classed as

 

[Gas man 101]

I am currently doing my ACS and at this second filling out a spillage and flue flow test In my evidence book. My Corgi book and Gas books at college state that you do the test with windows shut, Then open. But it states that if it fails this test then you shut all windows and fans and open up one window a small amount, But surley this is just creating ventallation that should already be present in the room.... Therefor inadiqute vent is provided. Just wanna know if you do the test as corgi state.... shut windows then open windows and if a fail then you open the window a little....but if it passes with windows shut and fails with windows open or vis versa, What happens then???

 

[kirkgas]

i think you need a wee re-read at the actual procedure, i "think" (from your description) that you dont understand exactly what you are reading (or i may misunderstand your description, EVERY chance that is happening) the test is carried out with the window SHUT, if it passes then the next port of call is to investigate EVERY potential extract fan which could effect the test result, ie paddle fan on any ceiling, tumble drier or cooker hood if they are extracting to outside, any other extract fan in any other room, IF the test(s) ALL pass then it is safe to tick the box as PASS, where (ithink) you are getting confused with opening the window comes in IF any of the tests FAIL, if you get a fail it is acceptable to crack open a window a bit at a time and retest each time it fails to see if extra ventilation can overcome the problem, IF it can then ADDITIONAL PERMANENT VENTILATION NEEDS TO BE FITTED THERE AND THEN, if not possible the appliance MUST be treated as ID INTIL the permanent vent is fitted, (regs say usually 50cm2 will be adequate) when fitted a spillage test confirms if 50cm2 is adequate, we used to calculate the extra vent size which overcame the spillage by calculating the extra vent by measuring the rectangle of free air along the window opening and then adding the 2 triangles of vent up the sides, length x breadth of one double gives the free air as a rectangle, not described very well but if you think it through it will make sense,
feel free to post to tell me you understood all this BEFORE i posted, it won't be the first time i have been wrong
*additional retests are only when it is confirmed that lack of adventitiuos vent is causing the problem, NOT to be confused with a dodgy flue causing the prob, where as we all know after an initial fail you can further heat the flue and test ONCE more only, (edited this as someone would have dug me up for it!!!!)

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

well put kirk,as you say with spillage testing regarding dodgy flues test after 5 mins at max rate if it fails test again for a further 10 mins at max rate if it fails again investigate why and as we know there may be many issues ,lack of ventilation,mid feathers collapsed ,restrictions etc.etc

 

[GrahamM]

i think you need a wee re-read at the actual procedure, i "think" (from your description) that you dont understand exactly what you are reading (or i may misunderstand your description, EVERY chance that is happening) the test is carried out with the window SHUT, if it passes then the next port of call is to investigate EVERY potential extract fan which could effect the test result, ie paddle fan on any ceiling, tumble drier or cooker hood if they are extracting to outside, any other extract fan in any other room, If fan is in an adjoining room then open door to that room. IF the test(s) ALL pass then it is safe to tick the box as PASS, where (ithink) you are getting confused with opening the window comes in IF any of the tests FAIL, if you get a fail it is acceptable to crack open a window a bit at a time and retest each time it fails to see if extra ventilation can overcome the problem, IF it can then ADDITIONAL PERMANENT VENTILATION NEEDS TO BE FITTED THERE AND THEN, if not possible the appliance MUST be treated as ID INTIL the permanent vent is fitted, (regs say usually 50cm2 will be adequate) when fitted a spillage test confirms if 50cm2 is adequate, we used to calculate the extra vent size which overcame the spillage by calculating the extra vent by measuring the rectangle of free air along the window opening and then adding the 2 triangles of vent up the sides, length x breadth of one double gives the free air as a rectangle, not described very well but if you think it through it will make sense,
feel free to post to tell me you understood all this BEFORE i posted, it won't be the first time i have been wrong
*additional retests are only when it is confirmed that lack of adventitiuos vent is causing the problem, NOT to be confused with a dodgy flue causing the prob, where as we all know after an initial fail you can further heat the flue and test ONCE more only, (edited this as someone would have dug me up for it!!!!)

Well explained kirky. Just added a wee bit in there.

 

[Gas man 101]

As quoted from the corgi book, When you have completed a succesful spilage test with all the windows shut, reapeat this test with all the internal doors open and fans operated at max speed, But my NIC EIC Gas book that ACS assesment center has adviced me to get it states to open the windows doors and fans on the 2nd test thats what i dont understand, At work i have been told not to open the windows, as you have stated above and i agree with what your saying, im just confused why one book is saying to open windows,

 

[GrahamM]

As quoted from the corgi book, When you have completed a succesful spilage test with all the windows shut, reapeat this test with all the internal doors open and fans operated at max speed, But my NIC EIC Gas book that ACS assesment center has adviced me to get it states to open the windows doors and fans on the 2nd test thats what i dont understand, At work i have been told not to open the windows, as you have stated above and i agree with what your saying, im just confused why one book is saying to open windows,

As kirky explained above, if spillage passes with doors, windows closed and fans off, you then open door to room with fan on etc. and re-test. Only if it spillage then fails do you open a window to simulate a core vent and re-test again. If passes you know you need more room ventilation.
If any book explains it otherwise it is incorrect.

 

[Gas man 101]

Cheers, I have only been doing gas a few months so i thought i best double check before i put it in my gas book, at work they showed me the way you all have said. But the other book trough me. So thanks again, i can crack on

 

[Bazz]

My trainer advised me if the initial spillage test fails, you can test for upto a further 10 mins, as often as you wish. The last test is therefore at 15mins however I cannot find this reference in the Essential Gas Safety manual. I dont want to disrespect him by asking him.

If someone can clarify this.

Thanks

 

[Reg Man]

Hi Guys,

I was fortunate to witness a spillage test the other day on an o/f fire with a paddle fan installed in the same room. My engineer started the test, after 5 mins of heating the fire with all doors/windows closed and fan on full, the front cover was not in place so he could perform the spillage test, straightaway the flame pic changed from a stable flame to one that looked very floppy which was at times being blown all the way underneath the burner and wafting out from the sides of the fire. A window was opened as all the reference books state but this made little difference, the engineer shut off supply at the restrictor elbow and capped with plug. I guess I expected the opening of the window to at some point rectify the problem, but it didn't.....Any of you had that happen.
Another thing that surprised us both was that the fan had been fitted for the past 6 years and owner said never had any problemns when tested in the past, they did however state that they had never witnessed any other engineer turning the paddle fan on. AMY

Thats the big issue with paddle fans, opening the window unlikley to make any difference, because of the turbulance caused by the fan pushing air down into the room. Choice is Paddle fan or gas fire not both.

 

[neily01]

How often do we hear "Never had any problems before!". When it comes to fans and/or extractors I fear it may be true that many don't test properly. A good learning experience Amy that will stick with you.

ACOP Appendix 1: Domestic and other small scale flues: 3(L)
.....The test should be conducted in accordance with the appliance manufacturer instructions, and take into account any factors which may adversely affect flue efficiency, eg operation of extractor fans or forced air heating systems in the room housing the appliance or any adjoining room (with interconnecting doors open).

I love it when doing a flue flow test on a job and i ask the cust to let me into the loft to check flue integrity and it is ALWAYS followed up with "the other plumbers never wanted to get into the loft"

 

[AWheating]

My trainer advised me if the initial spillage test fails, you can test for upto a further 10 mins, as often as you wish. The last test is therefore at 15mins however I cannot find this reference in the Essential Gas Safety manual. I dont want to disrespect him by asking him.

If someone can clarify this.

Thanks

im sure its written down in a BS or document of some sort. Most installation instructions if detailed state 5mins warm up, then test. fail and leave for upto 10mins and retest. If fail seek advise/check for faults.

ask your trainer where it comes from, thats part of his/her job.

never be afraid to ask your tutor a question, your there to learn afterall and if you dont ask you wont understand things as well.

 

[Bazz]

im sure its written down in a BS or document of some sort. Most installation instructions if detailed state 5mins warm up, then test. fail and leave for upto 10mins and retest. If fail seek advise/check for faults.

ask your trainer where it comes from, thats part of his/her job.

never be afraid to ask your tutor a question, your there to learn afterall and if you dont ask you wont understand things as well.

Thanks for that. I asked he mentioned British Standards which one he didn't say, he also states not to open windows when spillage test fails with fan on or off he says that this is incorrect and is not good practice. It says cleary on BS recommendations and Essential Gas Safety to open window if spillage test fail.
Weird or what

 

[Reg Man]

im sure its written down in a BS or document of some sort. Most installation instructions if detailed state 5mins warm up, then test. fail and leave for upto 10mins and retest. If fail seek advise/check for faults.

ask your trainer where it comes from, thats part of his/her job.

never be afraid to ask your tutor a question, your there to learn afterall and if you dont ask you wont understand things as well.

British Standard 5440 Part 1. Section 6.3.2.6

 

[atty17]

Opening the window after a test failure, simply shows whether providing ventilation in the room will solve the spillage problem, if opening a window works then you could install an air vent, if it didn't then further investigation of the flue, catchment area, fire. Will be needed if you had not already done this.
hopevthis helps