piped skirting

[Boabie]

Can anyone tell me what length of 15mm copper pipe would equate to a 7000btu rad? OR how much water is contained in a 7000btu rad?
I've done the online calc's and for my room I need approx 7000btu rad. I don't want to hang rads and looked at thermaskirt which is damn expensive and fittings are unique to their system. So now I want to calculate what length of 15mm pipe would equate to the rad, If my skirting is long enough I can do the work using mostly if not all off the shelf fixings.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

to be honest with you your idea won't heat your room very well at all. the boiler will be on all the time trying to get the room up to whatever temperature you will have set on the thermostat.

 

[SimonG]

Looked at thermaskirt before, but only for a huffhaus type property. The whole house heat loss was only 3,500 watts though.

What your planning is a waste of money.

 

[Alex Knight]

Yeah bad idea will not work very well if at all, and will most probably look terrible

 

[Boabie]

to be honest with you your idea won't heat your room very well at all. the boiler will be on all the time trying to get the room up to whatever temperature you will have set on the thermostat.

Thanks for the reply But this still does not answer my questions What length of pipe will equate to 7000btu radiator? or How much water is there in a 7000btu radiator?

 

[Boabie]

Thanks for the reply But this still does not answer my questions What length of pipe will equate to 7000btu radiator? or How much water is there in a 7000btu radiator?

 

[Ray Stafford]

The theoretical answer (and I stand to be corrected by the more techie minded) is that un-insulated 15mm copper pipe at Delta T 55 will output 45 watts per linear meter, so in theory, you would need 155m of 15mm pipe.

But thats only part of the storey. It won't work if you just run 155m of pipe round the room - you will have created an incredibly long single pipe system, with all the problems that this would entail.

Heat emitters are designed to emit heat. Pipework is designed to move fluids. Different jobs.

EDIT - whoops. Mixing up my btus and watts. Closer to 150ft, not 150m.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

155m of pipework would cost more than £600ish, a rad would cost about £100ish plus fitting

 

[Ray Stafford]

T or How much water is there in a 7000btu radiator?

Depends. In a Stelrad K2 about 14 litres. Although what that has to do with heating your room I don't know. Its not the volume of water, its the efficiency with which the emitter can transfer that heat from water to air that matters.

 

[Boabie]

Thank you for your reply I was hoping for a greater output per meter.
My thought lines were if a towel rail were extended out to give a feed and return what length would be required. My rooms dont lend themselves to radiators as they would be behind furniture or have to be mounted on glass!!! present system is warm air.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Vertical radiators or underfloor heating. Or high level fan convectors, but that's not really very good for domestic accommodation.

 

[Boabie]

Thanks great answer.
As copper transfers heat better than steel. I can now calculate the surface area of the rad you mention and calculate the length of pipe to hold 14 ltrs of water and see if the surface areas are close. I presently have old (very old) warm air system and my room furniture and glass negate radiators.

Thanks again

 

[Ray Stafford]

Thanks great answer.
As copper transfers heat better than steel. I can now calculate the surface area of the rad you mention and calculate the length of pipe to hold 14 ltrs of water and see if the surface areas are close. I presently have old (very old) warm air system and my room furniture and glass negate radiators.

Thanks again

Nope. Steel radiators are not steel pipe. Steel radiators are elaborately constructed with convector fins and do most of their heat transfer by convection, not by radiation (hence they are properly called convectors, not radiators).

I fear you are falling victim to a little knowledge and a lot of wishful thinking.

 

[Chalked]

Stop mucking about and just get some of these.
http://zehnder.co.uk/specification/products/4_STRATOS_GALLERY2_1.jpg

or a whole page of them.....rrr:
Low Level Radiators - The Radiator Factory

 

[stevetheplumber]

rads work due to the large surface area and passive convetion to get more heat from a small package your looking atforced convection i.e. a fan and high surface area emmiters such as finned or coiled
your other option is underfloor if you have the head room to loose 40mmremember you will have to budget to raise doors and skirtings

 

[Ermintrude]

Get a massive blower set up to transfer heat into warm air system. Just adapt old unit to take a massive curtain heater ££££££ or get trench finned pipe and make it look uber modern on walls?

 

[lame plumber]

renew the warm air system then

 

[oz-plumber]

What if you increased the pipe size?

There would be more heat output from the pipe.

I have a suggestion.. buy a 100m coil of pex pipe, hang it on the wall and connect each end of the coil to the heating system piping. That will definately give you more than the required heat output. Probably @ 10,000 Btu's

Let me know if its works, have been toying with the idea for some time.

 

[Ermintrude]

But of 4" on Munson rings will do a treat.

 

[happyflyer]

This is a wind up guys and you fell for it.:90: this chap was rejected on Dragons Den.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

There are two links on MY website to 2 different types of skirt heating.
[DLMURL="http://taraheating.co.uk/Discreet_Radient_Heating.html"]Discreet Radient Heating[/DLMURL]
They are not the same.
Mr TP has installed it a few times and we both think there is a place for it but most of the time other options are better.
In my opinion radiators or UFH is usually best if possible.
Depends a lot on your budget, not just for the heating system but all the redecoration of you house altering doors etc.

 

[Boabie]

This is a wind up guys and you fell for it.:90: this chap was rejected on Dragons Den.

I also seen it on Dragons Den and googled it to find out more. To me it is two oval shaped pipes held within an expensive aluminium frame (skirting) as the pipes are oval the fittings are unique to the product and yep expensive. I also know of a copper pipework with aluminium plates around to distribute the heat better but these simply collect dust and are awkward to keep clean. If the thermaskirt idea works then I cant see any issues with off the shelf copper pipe and a metal cover over if further contact with metal is required for added heat distribution I would try some steel wool touching the pipes but covered by the metal cover. I see coments like it wont work but no explination as to why. Having read up on some stupid price designer rads they are simply a collection of pipes and the heat given out is increased by increasing the pipe size therefore volume of water, therefore if 15mm pipes aint hot enough perhaps 22mm would suffice as this increases the volume by approx 3 fold.

 

[basildog]

I also seen it on Dragons Den and googled it to find out more. To me it is two oval shaped pipes held within an expensive aluminium frame (skirting) as the pipes are oval the fittings are unique to the product and yep expensive. I also know of a copper pipework with aluminium plates around to distribute the heat better but these simply collect dust and are awkward to keep clean. If the thermaskirt idea works then I cant see any issues with off the shelf copper pipe and a metal cover over if further contact with metal is required for added heat distribution I would try some steel wool touching the pipes but covered by the metal cover. I see coments like it wont work but no explination as to why. Having read up on some stupid price designer rads they are simply a collection of pipes and the heat given out is increased by increasing the pipe size therefore volume of water, therefore if 15mm pipes aint hot enough perhaps 22mm would suffice as this increases the volume by approx 3 fold.

I would go and do some science lessons before you start on this project as if you really think steel wool will work as a heat conductor you are doomed !!!!!!!!!
Might make a poor insulation I would guess ?

 

[LPC]

Hi. Please take photos when you are finished and post them here, preferably on a rainy Monday morning. Thanks!

 

[Boabie]

If I new of a science class specific to this I would sign up for it. I certainly have the time. Please explain why steel wool would insulate rather than conduct heat?
I've taken a look at "Heat Profile" website they do a product which depending on cost suits my needs and is a 18mm coper pipe embedded in an aluminium extrusion.

 

[Mike Jackson]

It's all about surface area with radiators etc. That's why all of the modern ones have fins down the back. The larger the surface area the better the emitter. Wire wool would not work because as well as the steel wool it is full of air and would also insulate.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

...Having read up on some stupid price designer rads they are simply a collection of pipes and the heat given out is increased by increasing the pipe size therefore volume of water, therefore if 15mm pipes aint hot enough perhaps 22mm would suffice as this increases the volume by approx 3 fold.

This might be true, but I'm not sure that it is
I must admit I not got a lot of time for designer towel rails myself....
The reason I doubt this simple explanation is because I have read a lot about design & efficiency of the sort of boring old panel rads that most of us have. Over the years the heat out put has been improved by better designs meaning we can get the same heat output from smaller modern radiators that contain far less water than rads of 15 or 20 years ago. So cheaper to run. I would imagine there are similar design improvements in weird designer rads that mean it is not just as simple as more water means more heat out put.

As to your DIY skirting board heating solution.
I really think the 2 very different systems that already exist were not just knocked up over night. THey have both been around for years and fully tested. If you install them as per manufacturers instructions you know what you will get.
They are commercial businesses, I'm sure when designing and testing their products if there was some cheaper option they would be marketing that as well.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Just went back to read your original question and I see it was how much water is in a rad.
As I explain in my last post and everyone else it trying to explain the heat out put is not as simple as moving a certain volume of hot water through your room.
It only it was.
If it is just one room can you retro fit ufh? It is probably the best solution to no radiators and not impossible. There are number of kits you can buy. You could do much of it D/iy if you want and you could have hydronic or electric ufh.

Finally, This might also interest you, though I can't imagine many people wanting this: Tubular Radiators Supplier in the UK

 

[Ray Stafford]

It's all about surface area with radiators etc. That's why all of the modern ones have fins down the back. The larger the surface area the better the emitter.

But that is only half the story Mike, which I think is what the OP is missing.

It isn't just about surface area - its about the design and the way convection works.

For example, take a bog standard Stelrad compact 600 x 1200 K2 - that has a published output of 7090 btu - about what the OP was looking for.

Now, if you rotated that radiator through 90 degrees and mounted it vertically, would you still expect to get 7000 btu from it? No - you would get way less, because you have oriented the convection channels at right angles to gravity, rather than in line with it, and because the water will no longer flow through it the way the manufacturer intended.

So it isn't just about surface area - its also about design.

I recall when a new radiator making process came into action in the late 80's/early 90s, which changed the way that convectors were welded to the main panel. Optimising the location of the welding could increase the output by about 8% without changing the amount of steel or the surface area by 1 jot.

So when I see the OP saying things like

As copper transfers heat better than steel. I can now calculate the surface area of the rad you mention and calculate the length of pipe to hold 14 ltrs of water and see if the surface areas are close.

I can't help having a little chuckle to myself.

And when people come onto the forum to ask for the advice of experts, and then get shirty because they don't like the answers, I find myself thinking I will spend time answering a better mannered OP.

 

[basildog]

Go look at an old heating system in a stately home ?
Massive pipes used as heat emitters they hardly worked which is why they ran half way around a room !
They soon realised and moved onto huge cast iron rads with no fins as such !
Then cast rads with lots of fins and air passages in fact much as a new cast rad is still made today !
We dropped cast rads due to cost and as Ray says they are designed to work at maximum outputs minimum sizes and built using as little material as is practically possible !
AS FOR THE WIRE WOOL THINK ABOUT IT ?

 

[Worcester]

I have a suggestion.. buy a 100m coil of pex pipe, hang it on the wall and connect each end of the coil to the heating system piping.
Let me know if its works, have been toying with the idea for some time.

Put it outside in a box, paint it all black put some perspex over the top - got yourself a diy solar collector :
Big, 24' X 8' Solar Collector Using PEX Tubing - Step by Step How to Build - YouTube
Construction of PEX Solar Collector

 

[basildog]

The Bulgarians have been doing this on their mountain summer houses for years !
An old rad or 2 painted black and I guess some kind of storage they now have free hot water for washing etc !

 

[mountainman]

I built a swimming pool heater a few years ago using the same principle.

Also did a similar thing with an underground coil of pipe.

Not in the U.K. though

 

[Ermintrude]

I'm going to be doing reverse soon, building a pilot wood gasifier which re burns singas and heats a thermal store. I know you can buy them but felt like a challenge and it needs to be low cost. Might build in a secondary gasifier for dog poop and burn that gas too! Currently messing with tubes to getatrix right!

 

[Howsie]

The Bulgarians have been doing this on their mountain summer houses for years !
An old rad or 2 painted black and I guess some kind of storage they now have free hot water for washing etc !

I've been doing it for years on one of the au pairs swimming pools. Trouble is I was never sure it was working because of all the friction generated.