D
Donald777
Hi, my first post here,
I rent out a property with a open flue Johnson & Starley warm air heater (installed in the house in 1978!). The property is currently empty so I ran the heater for 30 mins to check it all worked OK, which it seemed to. A gas safety check was passed a few months ago. However I noticed a slight gas smell with the heater turned off which I though might be the gas valve needing some grease (I'd lived in the property years ago and an engineer had fixed it with grease so I suspected the same problem. The rental agency arranged for an engineer on there books to look at it. He phoned me to tell me:
1. Gas leak on inlet valve - (as expected)
2. Ventilation sub-standard - the heater is housed in a cuboard on the landing and there is a warm air outlet vent just below the cuboard and the a return air duct just above the cuboard - he advised that it should'nt have both this outlet and return in the same room.
3. Flue sub-standard above warm air unit (he explained on the phone that there was a right angle in the flue just above the unit because of a joist.
4. Return air-duct sub-standard - there is a 1inch gap in the ducting inside the heater cuboard between the grill and the ducting. This same ducting sits on top of the heater unit but is not screwed on to it. It should be screwed on and taped to seal it.
5. Flue terminal, not connected to flue. He explained the flue was unsupported in the loft and the underside of the ridge tile had disintegrated perhaps because of the weight.
He advised that it would be best to fit a conventional wet system (~£4600).
Obviously a bit shocked I looked at the system myself, just to come to terms with things myself. I also called a heating engineer myself and he looked at things. Regarding:
2/ The new engineer said that it's not a problem have the return duct in the same room (the landing) as one of the warm air outlet ducts (registers?).
3/ There is no right-angle in the flue but there are a couple of 30 or 45degree elbows to get the flue to come up under the ridge tile in the roof but at no time is the flue anywhere near horizontal.
4/ I can see the 1 inch gap problem here myself and so did the new engineer. Perhaps the whole unit has moved back on the plenum or per it was never fitted correctly.
5/ I can see both the flue and the venilation air-vent (that carries the air required for combustion) going up through the loft to two separate ridge tiles. They both appear to be connected, I'll try to get really close tomorrow for a detailed inspection. The new engineer didn't seem concerned about them.
The new engineer found two further problems though (call these 6 and 7):
6/ The heater unit was not securely fixed to the plenum and could move.
7/ The air vent that comes down from one of the ridge tiles is split just inside the top of the cuboard with one open end right at the top of the cuboard and the other continuing down to about a foot from the bottom. He explained that new regulations require each to have it's own vent to the outside air, they can't share a vent then split.
The new engineer is going to give me a quote for a replacement warm air unit from Johnson & Starley. We discussed the alternative new systems but I've tenants that need to move in, in 2 weeks and am worried that putting a wet system in would make mess and require carpets to be relaid and redecorating etc.
As there seem to be some serious differences of opinion about what is wrong with the system I thought I'd try to lookup the regulations myself. I've got as far as discovering BS5440-2:2009 but see that it's about £150. Then there's the challenge of reading and understanding it!
Do these new regulations apply to existing systems when they need repair?
I'd be grateful for any advice anyone has to offer, either on the problems or my best option. Ideally I'm hoping to hear that the existing system could be repaired and made safe for much less than a new warm air unit would cost to install. The second engineer explained that J&S were the only firm making warm air units for the UK now so could name there price to some extent. I'll make sure I'm sitting down when he calls with his quote!
I gather that CO detector would be a good idea as these open flue units are intrinsically less safe than sealed units.
Thanks
Donald
I rent out a property with a open flue Johnson & Starley warm air heater (installed in the house in 1978!). The property is currently empty so I ran the heater for 30 mins to check it all worked OK, which it seemed to. A gas safety check was passed a few months ago. However I noticed a slight gas smell with the heater turned off which I though might be the gas valve needing some grease (I'd lived in the property years ago and an engineer had fixed it with grease so I suspected the same problem. The rental agency arranged for an engineer on there books to look at it. He phoned me to tell me:
1. Gas leak on inlet valve - (as expected)
2. Ventilation sub-standard - the heater is housed in a cuboard on the landing and there is a warm air outlet vent just below the cuboard and the a return air duct just above the cuboard - he advised that it should'nt have both this outlet and return in the same room.
3. Flue sub-standard above warm air unit (he explained on the phone that there was a right angle in the flue just above the unit because of a joist.
4. Return air-duct sub-standard - there is a 1inch gap in the ducting inside the heater cuboard between the grill and the ducting. This same ducting sits on top of the heater unit but is not screwed on to it. It should be screwed on and taped to seal it.
5. Flue terminal, not connected to flue. He explained the flue was unsupported in the loft and the underside of the ridge tile had disintegrated perhaps because of the weight.
He advised that it would be best to fit a conventional wet system (~£4600).
Obviously a bit shocked I looked at the system myself, just to come to terms with things myself. I also called a heating engineer myself and he looked at things. Regarding:
2/ The new engineer said that it's not a problem have the return duct in the same room (the landing) as one of the warm air outlet ducts (registers?).
3/ There is no right-angle in the flue but there are a couple of 30 or 45degree elbows to get the flue to come up under the ridge tile in the roof but at no time is the flue anywhere near horizontal.
4/ I can see the 1 inch gap problem here myself and so did the new engineer. Perhaps the whole unit has moved back on the plenum or per it was never fitted correctly.
5/ I can see both the flue and the venilation air-vent (that carries the air required for combustion) going up through the loft to two separate ridge tiles. They both appear to be connected, I'll try to get really close tomorrow for a detailed inspection. The new engineer didn't seem concerned about them.
The new engineer found two further problems though (call these 6 and 7):
6/ The heater unit was not securely fixed to the plenum and could move.
7/ The air vent that comes down from one of the ridge tiles is split just inside the top of the cuboard with one open end right at the top of the cuboard and the other continuing down to about a foot from the bottom. He explained that new regulations require each to have it's own vent to the outside air, they can't share a vent then split.
The new engineer is going to give me a quote for a replacement warm air unit from Johnson & Starley. We discussed the alternative new systems but I've tenants that need to move in, in 2 weeks and am worried that putting a wet system in would make mess and require carpets to be relaid and redecorating etc.
As there seem to be some serious differences of opinion about what is wrong with the system I thought I'd try to lookup the regulations myself. I've got as far as discovering BS5440-2:2009 but see that it's about £150. Then there's the challenge of reading and understanding it!
Do these new regulations apply to existing systems when they need repair?
I'd be grateful for any advice anyone has to offer, either on the problems or my best option. Ideally I'm hoping to hear that the existing system could be repaired and made safe for much less than a new warm air unit would cost to install. The second engineer explained that J&S were the only firm making warm air units for the UK now so could name there price to some extent. I'll make sure I'm sitting down when he calls with his quote!
I gather that CO detector would be a good idea as these open flue units are intrinsically less safe than sealed units.
Thanks
Donald