Moving Earthenware Waste in Concrete

[blawford]

So judging by the other thread I started I'm going to struggle to connect a new toilet with my waste pipe hole being so far from the wall (about 30-35cm to be precise). I am therefore thinking about the logistics of moving the opening.

As the title suggests, it is a ceramic/clay/earthenware (not sure what the right term is) in a concrete floor. The tools I have at my immediate disposal are a angle grinder with diamond blade, a few chisels and hammers, drills (non SDS) and masonry bits.

I assume the aim is to get access to the pipe, cut it off clean and then fit a 'Flexible Pipe Coupling' (can't post a URL) to attach a new PVC pipe to?

Few questions, how delicate is the pipe and how do I go about this job without breaking it? Can I do this job with the tools I currently have available or should I be buying/hiring something? How long is this job likely to take me roughly?

Thanks.

 

[Stigster]

You will have to work from a few inches either side of the waste pipe and carefully work your way in to the pipe's outer surface, like an archeaologist uncovering something delicate. I have used an SDS hammer drill with a chisel, a spike and a chasing bit as needed.

It's nerve wracking stuff but if you are careful it can be done. I have found that the concrete usually flakes off cleanly from the pipe's surface as you get near.


Then you are going to need the make enough room around the pipe so you can grind the pipe away bit by bit until you have a square face you can get a connector on to.

 

[blawford]

Thanks for the reply.

How long would you estimate it might take? What do you do afterwards, concrete it back in?

 

[oz-plumber]

Very difficult job to do for someone who hasn't done it before.

You may want to find out how thick the concrete is. Drill a hole until you break through.

Measure how far under the floor level to the bend, you may be able to determine which way the pipe runs from the bend.

I would start at the point where the waste for the ne pan has to be and work my way back to the existing pipe location.

It could be very tricky depending on the thickness of the concrete, depth of the horizontal drain and direction the drain is running.

How long will it take - you will know when you're finished, and yes, concrete it back in

 

[blawford]

Very difficult job to do for someone who hasn't done it before.

Such a spoil sport!

Did as you suggested, drilled a hole with my 18V drill driver, went though OK but the drill wasn't really powerful enough to go very deep so started chiseling. Concrete wasn't very thick but I did come across brick a bit further down. Managed to make a 7" hole in about 30 minutes or so.



I am assuming I can't do any structural damage doing what I am doing?

The soil pipe is currently a sweeping 90 degree bend away from the hole I have made, I am also assuming that I need to cut it off before the curve 'downstream'?

 

[joni os]

You've done the hard work, now find pipe outside and replace whole of internal pipework with new UPVC pipe, joining to existing with stepped flexible clay to PVC adapter. Fill void with weak mix 15:1 concrete.

 

[blawford]

Here is where I got to with another few hours work.




I assume I will have to go quite a bit further 'downstream' to get to a part of the pipe after the bend to attach to?

 

[Chalked]

You will need to dig back to the end of the bend. It will (hopefully) be running horizontally after that. Cut it there and adapt to plastic.
Glad your doing it properly, instead of boxing the wc off the wall. Will look much better when you have finished.:hurray:

 

[oz-plumber]

Keep digging Pal,

You have a long way to go before the difficult stuff begins.

I hope for you sake that bend doesn't connect directly to a junction.

 

[Old Account]

looks alright the job quite impressive for someone who is not so familiar with plumbing.

Hopefully he won't have those old long bends the are pretty long , if so he has to chisel quite a bit

 

[blawford]

I think the last two posts might have called it!

What do I do next?

 

[Chalked]

Cut it before the socket. Adapt it from there.

 

[blawford]

Cut it before the socket. Adapt it from there.

Seems like it might be possible, can't see the bottom of the pipe yet so I can't tell how much straight pipe I have to play with, doesn't seem like a lot but I guess it must be straight at the point it goes into the socket?

How much straight pipe do I need for the rubber joint to attach to?

 

[Radioman]

Keep going around the pipe, expose it so you can see all the pipe then post further picture. You are doing really well. If you are going to use a rubber sleeve coupling you need about 3 inches of straight pipe. If you use a clay to plastic socket about the same is safe

 

[blawford]

Thanks all, will hopefully have more by the end of the day.

 

[joni os]

The bend goes straight into socket with cement joint, will be necessary to cut off socket to give tolerance you need to reposition pipe close to wall. Would still be much easier, if possible, to locate pipe outside and make connection there. This would ensure all internal pipework properly jointed and reduce chance of leakage weakening foundations.

 

[blawford]

The bend goes straight into socket with cement joint, will be necessary to cut off socket to give tolerance you need to reposition pipe close to wall. Would still be much easier, if possible, to locate pipe outside and make connection there. This would ensure all internal pipework properly jointed and reduce chance of leakage weakening foundations.

Sorry, missed you suggesting this in your earlier post. Are you suggesting I remove the entirety of the pipework I already have (all the way to the outside drain) and replace it. Or add additional pipework from the outside drain to where the new toilet is going to go? Or neither of the above?

Wouldn't that mean that I need to dig up a lot more of the floor to take it the full distance to the outside?

Can you elaborate on what your plan would be?

 

[joni os]

Assumed pipe was against outside wall, if not have to be done internal. In every case, if you have to dig a hole, dig one big enough to work in.

 

[blawford]

Not much progress tonight, sorry about that, I know people look forward to my posts about my bathroom soil pipe! The under side of the pipe above the joint is cemented in and very hard to get through. I have attached pictures but I'm not sure they are very useful in terms of people giving me advice.

What I am mainly wondering at this point is whether I could cut it off below the joint as the only thing surrounding that part of the pipe is soil and very easily removed.

Also not really sure, even if I do clear the remainder of the upper part of the pipe without breaking anything, whether I will have enough straight pipe to attach to?

 

[blawford]

Anyone able to offer advice? Was hoping to geting this sorted tomorrow. Thanks.

 

[tamz]

Yer getting there. Get into it with the angle grinder or if you're brave enough you can just knock the collar off.

 

[blawford]

So above or below the collar? Or try and break the upper pipe out of the collar?

 

[oz-plumber]

Try and break the vertical pipe off so you can clear the concrete.
All the concrete under the pipe will have to come out.
If you break the collar - you break it - chances we take.

Once you have cleared a section of the horizontal pipe then you can attempt to cut it.

And watch out for sharp edges on the earthenware - sharp as a scalpel.

 

[blawford]

Try and break the vertical pipe off so you can clear the concrete.
All the concrete under the pipe will have to come out.
If you break the collar - you break it - chances we take.

Once you have cleared a section of the horizontal pipe then you can attempt to cut it.

And watch out for sharp edges on the earthenware - sharp as a scalpel.

Thanks, that was the plan I had just come up with also. Just dug around the pipe below the collar and that is all concreted too. Will cut the vertical section of the pipe off and see what it's like from there.

Have a feeling I might be buying a 240V SDS drill will chisel attachment before the end of the day!

 

[snoopy8888]

widen the hole first below the collar enough room to make the connection then cut off the collar.

 

[blawford]

Good progress this morning. Decided to start cutting off the upper pipe above the collar a bit at a time and seeing what I was left with after each cut. The concrete on the underside of the pipe wasn't too hard to break down once I got access.

Here is where I am at. I was hoping I would get a clean disconnection from the collar but unfortunately a bit of the collar broke off. Probably not too big of a deal in terms of the end goal, but I am a perfectionist!

So, is the next step to cut off the pipe below the collar and attach the rubber pipe coupling or is there a different play here?

Edit: This forum seems to attach photos in a different manner each time, I don't seem to be able to view the attached picture in a larger size so here is a link to it:

https://goo.gl/photos/6byhFU2i19qk8ny26

 

[blawford]

With no replies I now just feel like I am 'live blogging' the removal of my bathroom soil pipe! Cut off below the joint and removed all the concrete underneath, which was a real pain. Need to square off the cut (couldn't cut completely through at one angle due to access at the time) and then I am ready to put on the rubber coupling I guess?

To square the end of the pipe I guess I just cut a small amount off, wouldn't be better off getting a grinding disc and 'sanding it' square? I'm guessing probably not, but just a thought I had...

 

[ShaunCorbs]

looking good so far and keep in mind most people will be still at work

and hope this helps

to help with cutting pipe bigger than your grinder can handle

cut the top section (blue line) upto red line and remove the piece

then you can get your grinder into the pipe so you can but the bottom from inside the pipe



hope this helps any questions just ask

 

[rpm]

I would say ...

A. You`ve done well.
B. The rubber collar will go over the pipe by around 3" so the end of the pipe is good enough.

But have a cup of tea and wait for replies from more experienced people than me.

 

[blawford]

I didn't mean to come across as if I was complaining about the lack of replies, just more amused that I was just posting a running commentary on the removal of a bathroom soil pipe. Hopefully someone will come across this in the future and the detail will help them.

The rubber collar will go over the pipe by around 3" so the end of the pipe is good enough.

Went and tidied up the end of the pipe a bit before I saw your post and thankfully I managed not to wreck anything, would have been massively annoyed if I had though considering it wasn't required.

Now I just need to figure out what I need to buy and go somewhere to buy it.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I didn't mean to come across as if I was complaining about the lack of replies, just more amused that I was just posting a running commentary on the removal of a bathroom soil pipe. Hopefully someone will come across this in the future and the detail will help them.

Went and tidied up the end of the pipe a bit before I saw your post and thankfully I managed not to wreck anything, would have been massively annoyed if I had though considering it wasn't required.

Now I just need to figure out what I need to buy and go somewhere to buy it.

Measure the dia of the pipe and either go to a builder merchant or have a look on the Internet for a fernco coupling from dia of your pipe to 4"

 

[joni os]

Excellent job, coupling will seal as it is, but the square cut would be even better. Rub circumference of cut external and internal with piece of broken concrete to remove sharp edges. This will help coupling slide on pipe, external, and lessen chance of waste build up at joint, internal. Most important, old and new pipework adequately supported. I would use weak concrete mix. Some building inspectors might prefer pea shingle. Whatever you use pack it well round the pipe.

 

[blawford]

Bit of an hard question to answer I would imagine but what is the best way to work out what combination of bits I need in terms of angles and straight bits of UPVC pipework after the coupling?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Bit of an hard question to answer I would imagine but what is the best way to work out what combination of bits I need in terms of angles and straight bits of UPVC pipework after the coupling?

Yes one straight bit how ever far you want to push it back/ toilet (but they might only sell a length ) and a 4" elbow

And then for above ground you will require a 4" bent pan connector

 

[rpm]

Small point, is there a recommended torque for tightening the bands when fitting the Fernco coupling?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Small point, is there a recommended torque for the bands when fitting the Fernco coupling?

Yes normally stated on the coupling

 

[blawford]

Small point, is there a recommended torque for tightening the bands when fitting the Fernco coupling?

That was going to be one of my next questions. Not owning a torque wrench is there a way to do this without buying one? I love to buy a new tool but this seems a bit excessive for one use. Although I obviously don't want to crack the pipe at this point!

 

[ShaunCorbs]

That was going to be one of my next questions. Not owning a torque wrench is there a way to do this without buying one? I love to buy a new tool but this seems a bit excessive for one use. Although I obviously don't want to crack the pipe at this point!

Ft will do (tight tight)

 

[joni os]

If moving connection at rightangle to run of pipe you will need a medium radius 90 bend, which can be rotated towards wall and a 15 or 30 bend to bring pipe square with floor, depends on depth of existing and required distance off wall. Short length of 110 straight pipe, pan connector and your stepped clay to PVC coupling.

 

[rpm]

That was going to be one of my next questions. Not owning a torque wrench is there a way to do this without buying one? I love to buy a new tool but this seems a bit excessive for one use. Although I obviously don't want to crack the pipe at this point!

I`ve only ever used the small 40-50mm ones where the worm head can be tightned with a screwdriver or a socket, the socket and a ratchet will give a greater torque.

 

[joni os]

Tighten with !/4" drive socket set, you will know when it feels tight. Don't over tighten and strip worm thread. Arrange bands on coupling to aid access for tightening.

 

[blawford]

Just looking at pipe. Screwfix and Wickes are the closest places to me and Screwfix is a couple of quid per joint more expensive than Wickes, but Screwfix is FlowPlast branded stuff vs Wickes own brand. Should I spend the extra?

 

[joni os]

Just looking at pipe. Screwfix and Wickes are the closest places to me and Screwfix is a couple of quid per joint more expensive than Wickes, but Screwfix is FlowPlast branded stuff vs Wickes own brand. Should I spend the extra?

If near a Toolstation they will be even better and no problem returning unused fittings.

 

[blawford]

Had a look at Toolstation but they don't have the rubber coupling in stock and I don't really want to go to more than 1 place.

So a length of pipe connected to the rubber coupling then an elbow on the end to bring it out vertically at ground level. Would this be suitable as that elbow to sort out the angle I am left with (assuming it isn't something standard, which it almost certainly wont be).

Do I want the end up with the end joint almost flush with the floor?

 

[joni os]

The end joint is best flush with the floor and if it happens to be a collar insert 80mm of straight pipe, for pan connector to seal. Still unsure as to which wall you will be placing toilet against, assume it is one running parallel to pipe.

 

[blawford]

Just finalising what I am going to buy. Can I just check, the pipe that the toilet connects to should ideally be flush pipe (so a single socket rather than a double)?

 

[oz-plumber]

You probably don't want a socket at all.
The pan connector should fit inside the pipe.

What you need is an earthenware to PVC adaptor ( we call them Plumbquicks)
1 x 88 degree bend.
1.5 metres of pipe.
You may require a 15 degree bend if the horizontal drain does not line up with the location n of the new pan.

You will also require concrete to go under the bend where the pipe goes vertical.
You may also want some foam to wrap around the pipe where it goes through the existing slab - not sure if you guys do that?

You will also require some screenings to cover the pipe to the level of the concrete slab, you don't want to encase the whole pipe in concrete.

Hopefully you can decipher what I mean

 

[blawford]

Sacked it off early on Sunday to watch the football, shouldn't have bothered as it was a terrible game! 90% of the way there but it isn't quite coming out at the right angle.

In addition to the photo I have a 15 degree joint that I think might correct the angle, can I connect the 15 and 45 degree joints together?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Sacked it off early on Sunday to watch the football, shouldn't have bothered as it was a terrible game! 90% of the way there but it isn't quite coming out at the right angle.

In addition to the photo I have a 15 degree joint that I think might correct the angle, can I connect the 15 and 45 degree joints together?

yes you can or another 15 degree

 

[blawford]

Please tell me I am done!

Pipe position is where I want it, about an inch and a half from the wall. Angle is still slightly off but I figure I could probably get the cement floor in level and then cut it off flush? Either that or just use a flexible quick, cover it over with a decorative collar and live with it?

What do you lot think?