Help with rouge customers

[alex]

hi all, i'm sure i'm not the only plumber who has had issues with rouge customers so thought i would put this up and see how you guys would deal with it.

over the past 12 months i have carried out various maintenance and repair work for a guy who manages quite a few properties for various landlords he has always been poor at paying invoices promptly but has in the end (why is it always landlords? i never have trouble with anybody else)

In October i resealed a bath for him and didn't receive payment. (invoiced £45)

At the beginning of December he asked me to attend a different property for a different landlord which had a leak. went out late in the evening to find a totally ruined mixer tap ****ing water out of the tail connection, i isolated the tap and returned to replace it the next day (since it also needed a ceramic cartridge didn't seem much point in faffing around swapping the tail). invoiced him £126 including £46 for the new tap.my first question is, i normally charge £60 for swapping a sink mixer is this fair? never had any complaints previously. this time i charged £80 since there where 2 visits and the tap was a pain to change. either way i considered this pretty generous of me!

long short still haven't been paid for either job eventually got him to pick up his phone start of feb and he said the bill for the tap was ridiculous and he has never been charged more than £20 an hour by a plumber (other than me). he then said that the bath resealed back in October was still leaking and he wouldn't pay for either job until i return to that (only mentioned 4 months later). this has gone back and forth for a fortnight now and there isn't much reasoning with him, i couldn't care less about being paid for the bath, will happily go back if i am going to be paid but v reluctant to go before being paid for the tap which i'm out of pocket for. amount isn't enough to use a debt collector / small claims so what should i do. property with tap in is now untenanted so cant even go and take tap out. sorry for going on, this has turned into a bit of a winge but on the rare occasion i do get a rouge customer like this it makes my blood boil. anybody have any ideas on how to proceed.

many thanks

alex

 

[GQuigley67]

I think £80 is steep to change taps how long did it take you to change them ?

 

[alex]

GQUIGLEY67 thanks for that, normally i would agree and had i turned up and changed the tap in 1 visit then i would have charged £60 and probably taken about 45mins, however including the 1st visit at 10pm at night to isolate the supply going and buying the tap and returning the next day to actually change it it probably took close to 3 hours.

 

[fuzzy]

does sound a little steep mate, is it not worth saying you will meet him half way and get something? or isnt it enough?

 

[alex]

fuzzy at this point i would be happy just to recover the cost of the tap. point is he is blackmailing me to return to have another look at a bath in a different property for a different landlord before he will pay me anything for the tap

 

[justlead1]

Hi. Send a detailed breakdown of invoice. Call out, visiting merchants, isolating supply to safeguard property etc. Write it on a post card addressed to him, but make a mistake with the house number (next doors number) neighbours will be only to pleased to deliver. If this don't work the next number and so on. It tended to liven them up. Good Luck

 

[alex]

Justlead, cheers, he does already have a complete break down of the invoice he asked me to send about 10 days ago. what would be the benefit of sending it to his neighbor? sorry think i maybe missed the point

 

[GQuigley67]

even 2 visits still sounds a bit steep mate late visit or no, I would charge around that region for a kitchen sink install including the taps not just taps alone, tap change over would be around £30 or £40 for me.

maybe you'll have to come to some sort of agreement with him

 

[NickH]

I have lots of customers who are pink but none that are "rouge".

 

[alex]

quigley maybe you right. although nobody has ever queried £60 before. im quite happy to negotiate with him so long as i recover my materials cost. so essentially i would accept £46 at this stage. point is he is refusing to pay anything until i return to another job that he has also not paid me for and i suspect he isnt going to pay me either way.

after reading your reply's you guys dont seem quite as supportive as i thought you would be, and i don't see any other way of recovering this money, so i guess i will go back and look at this bath and hopefully he is good for his word. some times its worth getting an experienced opinion to allow me to see things from a balanced point so thanks for your help.

just for the record would have been much more obliging to his requests had he mentioned any of this prior to the invoices being 4 and 2 months over due

 

[alex]

implumbinguk, cheers for the support. i agree if it was just an issue of price then i would and will drop it for him especially as up until now he has given me quite a few jobs. its purely how he has gone about the situation not answering his phone between december and feb and then claiming there are these issues with another job. i feel like im being blackmailed by him with this other job and to be honest i think if i carry out this other work i still wont get paid as i don't think he ever had any intention of paying me. writing off labor time is one thing but writting off materials paid for out of my own pocket really hurts especially since i bend over backwards to please my customers and i know i have done a good job.

 

[Alpha man]

Do you get a lot of work from these people on a regular basis?

 

[justlead1]

Hi Alex, Your dealing with standard management practice. The point of the post card (LATE PAYMENT) and sent next door is social pressure, he will not wont people to know of the outstanding monies.

 

[alex]

just lead thanks for that, i think im going to go and do this other job for him but if i'm still not paid i will definitely give it a try and remember it for future.

alpha man, he isn't a major customer but yea i have probably done 4 or 5 jobs previous to these two in the last 12 months, i very much doubt i will get anymore now regardless of how i proceed from here and equally i don't need the money that bad to continue to deal with customers who constantly mess me around

 

[Barry98]

IMHO , i would get a solicitor to send a letter , even if it cost me. the man your dealing with is taking the Michael , he knows it you know it we know it the problem is how many of his associates has he told your a walk over (sorry) . but peeps like him really goat me. they all want it for monkey nuts but moan like a b***h after over the slightest thing after .

have you thought about registering with a recovery firm . i pay £50 a year to my mates registered debt recovery firm. i think its a few hundred for others but as i said hes a long time friend.

as were in the same neck of the woods feel free to pm me his details

tarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

 

[FLOW-TECH]

guys, guys come on the rates that you are stating are absolutely fair and reasonable- a long way of from being steep. if the customer thought your rates were too expensive , why did he keep calling you. Dont ever undervalue this trade of ours.Maybe an idea when you first met this customer would have been to been upfront with what your rates are and to have discussed the increase in hourly rates after a certain time of day.You dont need to be fitting taps for any lower price than you have,plus you dont need customers like him. Take it on the chin and move on.in my experience too, landlords, agents and even property developers are usually allways bad payers, maybe not at first but they soon turn.

 

[Barry98]

nice first post flow-tech welcome to the forums

 

[FLOW-TECH]

bloody good advice, i like it! probably a waist of time though, you could cover yourself with trading terms an conditions stating untill invoice honoured the product remains yours, and charge daily interest on overdue invoice, fill out a court form, contact him by sending him a copy of the form explaining that you will process court claim within 24 hrs unless paid in full-ccj his rse! rogue customers are out there, smell people out before getting involved with them if poss.

 

[Alpha man]

As there not that much of a regular customer, can you not get back into the propertys and atleast get your materials back, and I wouldnt worry about refitting anything in its place!!

 

[royston]

I wonder if he has an external stop tap fitted ????

 

[stevetheplumber]

as in turn off and fill with concrete

 

[Bartdude]

I find expanding foam can end up in all sorts of places.

 

[kirkgas]

best advice i can offer is to sort out terms and conditions BEFORE you do any work, it is not worth discussing what we think of your charge (PS i think the charge is more than fair) it is what the guy thinks that matters, i appreciate you dont want to go back to the bath repair, however play him at his own game, go back ad ask the tenant if it has been leaking since you fixed it, when did they tell the agent it was still faulty (if they even have) tell the guy you have a good reputation and dont want to spoil it with him, get him to confirm he will pay you for the bath job, when you visit and check what is going on, but will bill him extra if the bath isnt leaking, offer him to go and confirm it is still leaking before you go then see his reaction, tell him you then want paid for the taps job, OR simply tell him to pay you what he thinks is fair for both jobs and NEVER to phone you EVER again, tell him the taps were £70 so that is the minimum you will accept, so even if he gives you just the £70 you have covered a wee bit of time, at least you will have the satisfaction of telling him to F off when he phones you in a few weeks atr 10pm for another job, if you go down this route DO NOT BACK DOWN AND GO TO A 10PM JOB AGAIN as he will torture you again as you are weak, haha hope it gets sorted out

 

[Dannypipe]

I've got a client who's being evasive. He agreed to a quote, I did the work, but just his wife was home and said he'd send me a cheque from his business account. Called him last Wednesday, said are you happy with the work? 'Oh yeah, very happy, I must send you that cheque..... still not here.

I feel your pain mate

 

[kimbo]

I would have thought an out of hours call out at 10pm was worth £80 on its own I bet no one else would even turn up.

 

[Gray0689]

as in turn off and fill with concrete

That's just not right























Postcrete is quicker drying lol

 

[GQuigley67]

good luck anyway mate can be very frustrating take it out on a punch bag usually helps lol saves you getting the jail !

 

[fuzzy]

10pm call out! yeh thats gota be worth a bit

 

[dontknowitall]

If I'm not paid on the spot and have to send an invoice I add £10/10% to the bill. If they pay within 14 days they get the rate that was agreed otherwise they have to pay me more. Worked everytime for quicker payment ... so far ...

 

[alex]

Wow thanks for all the replies guys! Many good ideas, will try to reply to comments, cant take tap back as property is now empty and cant get access. would dearly love to pour concrete into his outside stopcock (i really like this), but since hes built like a brick poo house and my home address is clearly visible on my website i think i might have to show some restraint. Im a member of the FSB who offer discounted debt recovery unfortunately its all front they send out 3 letters from a solicitor threatening court action ccj's etc. but after these letters it isnt followed up with any action without substantial additional cost.
As it happens i have already done what kirkgas suggested, have arranged to go around on friday evening and asked him to meet me there which he refused since apparently he isnt stupid enough to be working on a friday night lol! either way will go round find out what is actually happening from the tenant can put right anything small scale then hopefully then he wont have anymore excuses.
It does seem to raise a point though over the last 5 years i have experienced this problem maybe 3 or 4 times (ALWAYS WITH LANDLORDS / DEVELOPERS) and unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much protection for honest tradesmen, but god forbid we step out of line because then we would be all over watchdog! ohh well thanks for letting me rant, i dont often post but i read this forum regularly and it seems to be the only one about where plumbers constructively help one another as apposed to belittling each others talents in a macho contest of "im the best plumber" (mentioning no names *cough* screwfix forums). cheers guys

 

[plumberdarren]

Anybody who says £80 is expensive for a night call out and refit the following day is undercharging, I think that is perfectly reasonable.

 

[Gray0689]

Anyone that thinks there the best usually are pretty poor to everyone else except themselves

 

[kirkgas]

Anyone that thinks there the best usually are pretty poor to everyone else except themselves

what does your post mean in relation the the topic here?

 

[PlumbBobBob]

i was thinking the same kirk

 

[GQuigley67]

Anyone that thinks there the best usually are pretty poor to everyone else except themselves

seems a bit harsh tbh everyones got different prices it all depends on what part of the country your from imho

 

[Bartdude]

what does your post mean in relation the the topic here?

I think he's referring to the last couple of sentences of the post at the top of the page.

 

[Blake]

Your prices are more than fair and I shake my head in disbelief that some might find that expensive for a 10pm call out and a 2nd visit.

Do a google search for free solicitors letter, there are loads offering them. They will send a letter out on your behalf which may make he realise he needs to pay you.

 

[woodsy]

I again think that £80 is more than fair and a 10pm callout would justify the fee alone. The landlord had the opputunity to just turn the water off himself and call you out next day but if he or the tenant can't be bothered then they have to pay. Always makes me laugh when customers say i work until 7pm you can come then or on a sunday to fix this etc and when you state that a you don't work weekends or nights or you would charge after hours rates they look at you as if you have no right to a life.

 

[blayedrunner]

100% concur with Woodsy!!!!

 

[Azzerus]

Go to the house with the bath problem, turn water off at stop tap and then take the handle off the stop tap until he pays up. Then charge him to fix the stop tap

 

[cr0ft]

I'm not sure i think £80 is steep for what essentially was 2 visits. No idea about prices in Leeds though to be fair but down here that wouldn't cover 2 1 hour callouts I shouldn't think. I think it's priced quite fairly.

The one thing I've found is that the more I charge the better the quality of customer I get. (Touch wood) I've not had a single customer cause me problems with payment for the last 18 months, everyone pays on the day or within a few days by BACS and I would say I'm pretty much charging the top of the price range in my area. Because of this I don't do much (if any) work for landlords but that is fine as they are only interested in how much it costs to have a job done and (because they don't live at the house) are notorious for not paying/paying slowly. If I have to do work like that the tenant pays and they claim it back from the landlord. I don't seem to be doing much worse than the other plumbers financially either from what I hear.

 

[Dotty]

OR you could write off your losses and never have anything to do with him again.

Except writing a nice little letter to your local rag AND your MP explaining how this Landlord has tucked you up and how you want to prevent other tradesmen falling into the same trap!

Bad news is always halfway round the world before good news has its boots on!

 

[metaldust9]

£80 is not dear seen as you went late and stopped his house being flooded also was it a combi or gravity fed system i had one were i said £65 he said you £25 out lad i said ;see ye. couldnt by the bits for the price he reconed ad just lerarn from it mate and get metarials money up front or walk away

ps you could always wait till its dark and put concrete down his stop tap outside in the road after youve turned it off cost a bit more than what he owes you

 

[CES]

Id write it off and as Croppie has said,let him know that you'll be telling the guys down the merchants to stay away from him as he's a non-payer. Lets see how many local guys will answer the phone to him at 10pm again. These rogue landlords/agents should IMHO be 'no swearing' and burned, and not necessarily in that order...