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Discuss Daikin altherma ashp wood burner solar best way to combine in the Renewable Energy area at PlumbersForums.net

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1

1967TUX

Hi All
I am a newbie here! I am a sparky by trade and have been rebuilding/extending/developing our property for 3 years! (living on site in mobile home!) The building has being totally refurbished and insulated above the latest building regulations. Upvc windows and doors have been installed throughout with A grade energy rating.
GROUND FLOOR
External walls 100mm concrete block/50mm cavity/50mm celotex /100mm concrete/dot and dab 12.5mm plasterboard
External walls old existing part of bungalow 100mm concrete block/50mm cavity/100mm concrete block/25mm cavity/tlx multifoil insulation/25mm cavity/12.5mm plasterboard
Internal walls 100mm concrete block.
Floor concrete slab/100mm Celotex 75mm of screed.
Under floor heating

1[SUP]st[/SUP] FLOOR
Attic truss construction with 22mm chipboard flooring & stud walls
Under floor heating

Roof
Barnstable concrete tiles
Over rafter TLX multifoil insulation
90mm of celtex internal/ vapour barrier/ plaster board.

Ventilation
A Nuaire MRXBOX95B-WHI mechanical ventilation system with heat recovery ( up to 95% efficient ) & summer bypass has been installed throughout the property

Solar Thermal kit (frame and pipe work already installed)
2 x ETZ5830 Barilla TZ58-1800 30 Tube Collector
1 x barilla deltasol c plus controller.
1 x Inter Panel Connection Kit with Expansion Compensator
1 x 24L High Temperature Expansion Tank inc. Connection Set
1 x Lead Roof Slates with Grommets (pair)
1 x PRV Discharge Container
1 x PRV discharge pipe
1x Drain Off Kit to suit DN16 Pipe
2 x 15m DN16 Pre-insulated Stainless Steel Flexible Pipe
1 x DN16 Connector Set (Type A)
1 x 10L Solaris PG Concentrated Heat Transfer Fluid

HEATING REQUIRMENTS
Wet Under floor heating has been installed with a separate manifold to supply each floor. The under floor pipe runs have been spaced at 150mm centres, separate zones and thermostats for each room.

5 x Towel rails have been installed on a separate circuit so that they can be run independently of the under floor heating system and used as a heat dump.

HOT WATER REQUIRMENTS



Ground floor
1 sink in kitchen
1 sink in utility room
1 sink in the wc
1 sink in the bathroom
1 combined bath/shower in the bathroom



1[SUP]st[/SUP] Floor
3 x bathroom sinks
3 x showers
1 x bath

overall heat loss has been calculated to be 8.9kwh

i have acquired a 16kw daikin altherma low temp ashp and am looking for any advice, suggestions, comments, regarding the best way to combine the different heat inputs and making the system as efficient as possible, my thinking is as follows;

1 x 450l three coils twin tank as per attached diagram
The diagram is not of my actual set up but the general idea is there. i intend to feed the upper buffer tank with the ashp at low temp and with the solar through the coil.
The the lower DHW tank will be heated by the ashp via a valve to divert the flow from the buffer to the dhw tank coil when the tank calls for heat this will be at the higher temp 50 deg.
Off of the buffer tank i will feed 2 underfloor heating manifolds which are controlled by there own room stats,zones,and pumps, also i was going to have the towel rail circuit coming from the buffer which again would have its own timer, pump and zone valve, this would also operate as a dump circuit should the solar get to that point.
The addition to this was utilising the wood burner that we are going to have any way. i thought that in the winter when we lite it we could could have a back boiler on it which could contribute to the hot water i was thinking this would feed a vented tank then the cold water would go through the coil pre heating it before it enters the dhw tank.

my plumber mate has suggested the gledhill torrent, I am not sure if it would be the most efficient solution due to the fact the whole tank would need to be heated to the higher temperature from the heat pump and would it cope with the hot water demand?

any comments, advice, suggestions would be greatly appreciated

Thanks TUX View attachment 1-Three coils twin tank.pdf
 
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OP
E

Ermintrude

Call ACV they are the boys. Free design !
 
OP
1

1967TUX

Hi brum no im in devon and thanks Ermintrude will give them a shout.
 

Worcester

Plumber
If you'd got it designed and installed by an MCS certified company you'd have got most of it paid for by the government .

You need a thermal store - properly designed and connected else it will all go horribly wrong...

There are lots of far better thermal stores than the torrent...

plumber vs heating engineer

Commissioning that Daikin is fun:)
 
OP
1

1967TUX

Hi, worcester
I did look into going down the mcs route, i had several different quotations, they were all ridiculously over priced, i asked them all to give me a total breakdown of there quotations, and itemised list of the materials they were going to supply with costings for them and how many man hours labour ect. none of them provided this. The prices i received were all over £10k ! mcs payments would have been around £600/year x 7 years = £4200. I appreciate we all have to make a living but there are a lot of people making a lot of money out of this renewable's boom. rant over!!
I understand the system needs to be properly designed and connected, my plumber mate is no renewable's expert that is why i was here looking for other peoples professional opinions as they are more may be familiar with the technology and what the best thermal stores ect are.

what stores would you rate? and what problems do you see regarding commissioning the daikin?
 

Worcester

Plumber
The Daikin system has a specific sequence and checks for installation and commissioning, get it wrong and you've just :nono: your heat pump up totally. That's the expertise you pay for.
Like gas safe, you won't get any advice on installing a heat pump, sorry.

If it's the split system you have it is illegal for you to install and commission it, DEFRA will and do prosecute. You'll need a specially qualified engineer to do it, (No problem on a one off, no -supply arrangement, the industry standard charge is £800 per day per engineer, it will take two days..) plus you'll need to meet all the installation regulations, if it doesn't comply, no problem, you didn't want our advice in the first place, we'll just issue the appropriate no-compliance notice and seal it off.

Heat Pumps, like gas boilers cannot be diy installed.

Presumably you aware aware of all the planning regulations also re heat pumps, and you have got all the necessary permissions, including the DNO's haven't you...

I can guarantee, that not designed or installed properly your running costs will be nowhere near what they should be, and you'll wish you'd employed a proper company in the first place. -

Example: We are just ripping out one complete ASHP installation, installed 2 years ago that has never properly worked and cost a forune to run. On a 2 hour inspection we found more than 20 things wrong with it. ---- So sorry if you're not using a heat pump qualified engineer to design and install you won't get any diy advice.

There again I bet you give lots of electrical diy advice for people that want to change their rewired fuse box to a 17th edition consumer unit don't you..

Rant over.

To answer your question:
Stores: ACV, Akva, Joule. The hydraulic design to get these correct is not for a normal plumber, once again that's the expertise you pay for.
 
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OP
1

1967TUX

Thanks worcester you have just confirmed renewable's ridiculous prices £800 a day £100/hr how can justify that!!!

i am not going to install the pump my self i never said i was???? i will fix units into position drill holes through walls ect i am quite capable off doing that it ain't difficult i aint an idot !! then any specialist skilled aspects and commissioning can be carried out by my local daikin agent surley??
just wanted some help and advice on what size and make of tank/tanks would be best suited to my application from some professional installers who have experience in this field.I thought that is what the forum was for?? i have had several different quotations all pushing different systems. the same as all the tank company's say there tank is best for the my application. it is not my field of expertise so came here thinking there would be someone with a greater knowledge of these systems who might be able to point out the pros and cons of certain tanks ect. and if there are any particular tank to avoid. really just share there wisdom with me sorry if you don't wont to do that, its not a problem, hopefully I can get some advice from some one who does.
 

brum

Plumber
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brum

Plumber
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SimonG

Plumber
Thanks worcester you have just confirmed renewable's ridiculous prices £800 a day £100/hr how can justify that!!!

i am not going to install the pump my self i never said i was???? i will fix units into position drill holes through walls ect i am quite capable off doing that it ain't difficult i aint an idot !! then any specialist skilled aspects and commissioning can be carried out by my local daikin agent surley??
just wanted some help and advice on what size and make of tank/tanks would be best suited to my application from some professional installers who have experience in this field.I thought that is what the forum was for?? i have had several different quotations all pushing different systems. the same as all the tank company's say there tank is best for the my application. it is not my field of expertise so came here thinking there would be someone with a greater knowledge of these systems who might be able to point out the pros and cons of certain tanks ect. and if there are any particular tank to avoid. really just share there wisdom with me sorry if you don't wont to do that, its not a problem, hopefully I can get some advice from some one who does.
Anything can be justified on supply and demand. I think in this instance you pay the money or you get nothing. 100 pound an hour is cheap when you look at a solicitor writing you a letter or a garage servicing your car.

The moral of the story is that you either pay up or do without, as alexander would say, simples :)
 

Worcester

Plumber
Thanks worcester you have just confirmed renewable's ridiculous prices £800 a day £100/hr how can justify that!!!
Easy, over £5000 investment to get the nescessary qualifications, knowledge and equipment.

Then any specialist skilled aspects and commissioning can be carried out by my local daikin agent surley??
At the above price if they didn't specific and supply

Just wanted some help and advice on what size and make of tank/tanks would be best suited to my application from some professional installers who have experience in this field.
We are, and it has taken years of knowledge and £10k's of investment to get there, it isn't simply plumbing or sparks.

(n.b I am personally qualified in both, as well as having an engineering degree and being a chartered engineer)

I have had several different quotations all pushing different systems. the same as all the tank company's say there tank is best for the my application.
Hence go to a specialist

It is not my field of expertise so came here thinking there would be someone with a greater knowledge of these systems who might be able to point out the pros and cons of certain tanks ect. and if there are any particular tank to avoid. really just share there wisdom with me sorry if you don't wont to do that, its not a problem, hopefully I can get some advice from some one who does.
I'm not trying to be unhelpful, just to put it into perspective. I have listed above the thermal stores that you should consider (you probably won't like the price tag they come with though as they are all more expensive than the torrent)

To make sure a system like you are specifying works properly requires half a day specifying and about 2 days just on the detailed hydraulic design. i.e you need about £700 of anybody's expertise.

Just read some of the other threads in this forum and you'll see the mess people get into, and we do our best to help them out. I'm actually being very helpful in trying to stop you from getting into that mess in the first place. -- A penny well spent is a pound saved..

It the old saying about the guy that charges £500 to fix a machine with a single hammer blow it's £1 for the hammer and £499 for knowing where and how hard to hit it.

What you are aiming for is a sensible solution, it's just that the knowledge to get it right is very expensive to come by, and very easy to get so very wrong without it.
 

Killy Bing

Plumber
Gas Engineer
Thanks worcester you have just confirmed renewable's ridiculous prices £800 a day £100/hr how can justify that!!!

i am not going to install the pump my self i never said i was???? i will fix units into position drill holes through walls ect i am quite capable off doing that it ain't difficult i aint an idot !! then any specialist skilled aspects and commissioning can be carried out by my local daikin agent surley??
just wanted some help and advice on what size and make of tank/tanks would be best suited to my application from some professional installers who have experience in this field.I thought that is what the forum was for?? i have had several different quotations all pushing different systems. the same as all the tank company's say there tank is best for the my application. it is not my field of expertise so came here thinking there would be someone with a greater knowledge of these systems who might be able to point out the pros and cons of certain tanks ect. and if there are any particular tank to avoid. really just share there wisdom with me sorry if you don't wont to do that, its not a problem, hopefully I can get some advice from some one who does.

actually tux, ive got a building to wire up, can you tell me how to do all of it? I dont want to waste money on a spark
^^^
you'll read that and think how disrespectful!!!!!

hmm wait..
 

Worcester

Plumber
Here it is - I pointed you to it earlier :: AKVA GEO (bottom right) - remember to add in the cost of the glycol if you are using a monobloc instead of a split, there are of course configurations that would reduce the glycol requirement with a monoblock. If monoblock, and no glycol, then no warranty.

It's very simple really:

ThermalStore_config.jpg
I suppose you'll want me to give you the pipe sizes next... and a key:)
 
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OP
1

1967TUX

Just Thought i would update you all managed to get my system installed and running at what i would call a realistic price, not the rip off prices of £100/hr some of you quoted on here lmao, all signed off by mcs installer so i receive the payments for both solar and air source. it ain't rocket science i managed to design the system and source all the kit my self. did not go with coupling the wood burner into the system in the end as it would have been of little benefit for the additional cost of incorporating it. It is stand alone unit and will heat the house if need be in a power cut or break down just by leaving all the doors open.

cost of system
-----------------
16kw dakin altherma £1200
300LT AEROCYL TWIN COIL HEATPUMP /SOLAR CYLINDER £690 (SHOP SOILED FINE IN GARAGE)£690
solarbayer 300lt solar dhw tank (adapted and used as buffer) ebay new unused £167
60 tube solar kit £2100
pipe,fittings,valves,mixing valves,inhibitor ect £1500
fully qualified refrigeration engineer to gas heatpump £80 (mate of a mate)
mcs install commission and certification £1575

total £7312

i fixed the heat pump indoor and out door units into place & run tray for linking pipework.
fully qualified refrigeration engineer piped and gassed heat pump unit.
i fitted the solar panels to the roof and piped down into garage ready for connection.
The mcs installer took three and a half days to install and commission the whole system. charged £25/hr + £500 for the mcs

The solar heats dhw then the buffer tank with any access solar, there is a separate towel rail circuit which comes on to dump access heat when the buffer tank reaches a set high temp. has been running since October and have not had any problems. the whole house is easily kept at 21deg during day and set back to 18deg at night. unused guest rooms are set lower 16deg all controlled by local room stats. flow temp for heating on heat pump set 35deg dhw set at 50deg since October we have used 3200 units of electric for the heating and hot water (metered separately) so aprox £440 aprox £3/day which seems very reasonable.
 

Nostrum

Plumber
Gas Engineer
Solar heating the buffer? That sounds like a non compliance for a start.

Not quite sure what you are tying to achieve with this post but glad to hear you are happy with the system.
 

oz-plumber

Esteemed
Plumber
Just out of interest, what are the major pitfalls for the Monobloc system.

I have been asked to look at a job that has been specified with 4 x 16 kW monoblock units.
They are to do UFH, fancoils ( chilled water ) and possibly Hot Water.
Each system is separate from the other.

What, if any, are the wiring and system set up problems.

I haven't ever done anything like this and doing some basic searching haven't been able to find out a great deal on these units.

I haven't got Daikin involved yet because the building is in the very early planning stages.


I would like some feed back from people with some experience installing these units.
I'm sure if I asked Daikin, they would tell me they are the best units and easy to install and so on.

Have made some inquiries about training course, but none available at this stage.

Oz
 

Nostrum

Plumber
Gas Engineer
Each manufacturer tends to suggest a slightly different installation set up. Getting to know the product your working with is key in my opinion.

Good hydraulic design using the manufacturers data to ensure they will perform at all external temperatures.

Check your pump and pipe sizing and flow rates to compensate for the lower delta T and maintaining minimum flow rate through the unit to prevent high pressure faults.
 
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