Back boiler in bedroom?

[HeatStar]

Hi everyone,

I chap I know rents out a flat that has a Baxi Bermuda back boiler and fire in what used to be the living room.

He has recently rented the property out and his new tennants have converted the living room into a bedroom. Now, British Gas have been to do an annual check and service and have classed the boiler as AR on the basis that an Open flued appliance above 14KW cannot be installed in a bedroom. I had assumed this classification to be correct until I spoke to Gas Safe to confirm. I was told that, assuming the appliance passes all servicing and inspections, it can be classed as NCS as long as it was installed before 1996. Needless to say, the fella confirmed to me that it was installed in 1984.

Can somebody please confirm this for me as at present I don't have access to any literature to check myself (hence me ringing gas safe).

Many thanks for any help.

Martin

 

[hammers4spanner]

Are gas safe signing the paperwork with their name on it for a landlord cert??

 

[HeatStar]

Are gas safe signing the paperwork with their name on it for a landlord cert??

No, British Gas have signed the cert as it was done by them. They classed it as AR but didn't isolate the appliance and apparantly told the tennants they would be back to do this unless the landlord changes the boiler???

Gas Safe only told me their take on it over the phone, nothing more.

 

[hammers4spanner]

relevant paperwork would have been filled out by BG

 

[PeteWalker]

H4S is right. I'm Gas Registered & do lots of Gas Safety Records for landlords. Unless I had evidence that the thing was put in before the magic date I'd fill out the AR form stating the rules about why it isn't allowed (for a later one) along with "No evidence of installation date".
Someobody's say-so on a date, won't stand up in court. AR means it should be turned off, with the landlord's permisson. It's a nasty (untechnical term) situation anyway, because there must be a permanent, correctly sized vent for fresh air, and people are always blocking them. If the landlord insists, and puts it in writing, then I'd still formally recommend that he does not use it, and tell im that if he does, he should fit a carbon monoxide detector, though they can go wrong.
Make the landlord feel the responsibility for the old heap of an appliance, which might kill someone... He's been advised, it's HIS decision.

 

[snowhead]

It is A.R and Gasafe should know that, the link below from HSE clarifies beyond doubt.

The issue is the room containing the appliance has been converted to a bedroom After 1996. Page 3 note 5;

http://www.hse.gov.uk/gas/landlords/1-april-2009-tb-105-non-room-sealed-gas-appliances-located-in-sleeping-accommodation.pdf

 

[HeatStar]

Thanks for the responses everyone. snowhead, you have provided me with exactly what I was after. I just couldn't find that on the GS website for some reason.

PeteWalker, I too am a GS engineer, although I don't do that many landlord certs. I have however come across a couple of back boilers that were sooted up to high heaven due to blocked ventilation and poor combustion. Both were replaced under my guidance so I completely agree with your point. I just wanted clarification as to what the classification should be and what the GSR state.

Many thanks guys

 

[Nostrum]

edited the post as the document answers the question

 

[Reg Man]

Gas safe have misinterpreted the regulations. Because the room has changed to a bedroom by the landlord since the date.

 

[lame plumber]

so I hope we are now saying its ID as it probably hasnt got an oxygen depletion device on the fire/boilerif its less than 12.7kw net and cant be used if its over 12.7kw net. And fm what Ive read the landlord had nothing to do with it becoming a bedroom, so he isnt to blame and could insist its returned to its primary use.

 

[jtsplumbing]

Would you want to sleep in that room ?? Its got to be ID !!

 

[mountainman]

Would you want to sleep in that room ?? Its got to be ID !!

I agree.

 

[kirkgas]

so I hope we are now saying its ID as it probably hasnt got an oxygen depletion device on the fire/boilerif its less than 12.7kw net and cant be used if its over 12.7kw net. And fm what Ive read the landlord had nothing to do with it becoming a bedroom, so he isnt to blame and could insist its returned to its primary use.

I hope qualified guys AREN'T saying its ID, because it is AR,
Our opinion on its level of safety doesn't come into it, I appreciate "engineering judgement" is called into play at times, but this exact scenario is covered in TB001 and is AR,
Back to basics guys ID is where we KNOW there is threat to life, an OF appliance in a room will not definitely kill you if t you remove the couch and fit a bed

 

[GrahamM]

In rented accommodation if living-room with back boiler converted to bedroom after 31st Oct 1998 then it is AR.
If converted to bedroom before this date then NCS as long as all checks are good.

The question is how do you prove when converted to bedroom? So would always be AR in my opinion.

 

[lame plumber]

AR or ID are you willing to 'put your name to something that doesnt come under common sense nowadays. It will soon pop up to ID status once a couple of bods dont wake up. Personally Id would tell the landlord it needs sorting now, and cap it, then if kirkie wants to pop down and reconnect, I'll forward a contact number. I wouldnt sleep in a room in that situation nowadays. But thats my personal opinion - and its my arse, especially if a jackdaw decides to take up residence in the chimney, which they do for a past time in my area, especially when the cowls get a bit old and dodgy and the seagulls whip them off. I have had to deal with 2 cases like this in recent years with blocked flues, so I wont accept it as an ncs or ar and after all every time you call gas safe , they tell you its the engineers descition on the spot dont they!

AR/ID the required result is to turn off the appliance, but one form allows the user to turn it back on!! So my attitude to prevent this is to cap and go, with an ID to support me. If they refused to turn it off for an AR then what, its you that gets the accusing finger if things go pearshaped and youd be guilty in some eyes so would you be happy to walk away? As it a landlord issue, then not doing anything isnt deemed acceptable either is it. So in my simple mind it needs capping based on dates given and sorting, may not be as per written regs, but gas safe wont support you either way imho and your the one there and the one who'll be blamed longterm.

 

[kirkgas]

AR or ID are you willing to 'put your name to something that doesnt come under common sense nowadays. It will soon pop up to ID status once a couple of bods dont wake up. Personally Id would tell the landlord it needs sorting now, and cap it, then if kirkie wants to pop down and reconnect, I'll forward a contact number. I wouldnt sleep in a room in that situation nowadays. But thats my personal opinion - and its my arse, especially if a jackdaw decides to take up residence in the chimney, which they do for a past time in my area, especially when the cowls get a bit old and dodgy and the seagulls whip them off. I have had to deal with 2 cases like this in recent years with blocked flues, so I wont accept it as an ncs or ar and after all every time you call gas safe , they tell you its the engineers descition on the spot dont they!

AR/ID the required result is to turn off the appliance, but one form allows the user to turn it back on!! So my attitude to prevent this is to cap and go, with an ID to support me. If they refused to turn it off for an AR then what, its you that gets the accusing finger if things go pearshaped and youd be guilty in some eyes so would you be happy to walk away? As it a landlord issue, then not doing anything isnt deemed acceptable either is it. So in my simple mind it needs capping based on dates given and sorting, may not be as per written regs, but gas safe wont support you either way imho and your the one there and the one who'll be blamed longterm.

I don't disagree with your good intentions, but you don't have the authority to class it as ID, its a documented scenario and is AR, there is no leeway for engineering judgement, its AR all day long and won't be on when I leave it, " it's roasting in here mate, sorry for using your gas to check it, is it ok if I turn it off while I go over the report with you as there a couple of things not right" that's me asked for and got permission, they sign my sheet or I record "tenant refused to sign" then I'm straight onto the landlord to advise, I will NOT go to jail for these actions, no matter what happens, because I have complied with their rules they cannot convict me of anything or every gas engineer in the land would be at risk ( excuse the pun)

 

[kirkgas]

Lame, it won't escalate to ID if someone does not take my advice and continues to use the appliance, my paperwork tells them it is an offence to continue to use and if someone gets hurt they could be liable to prosecution, and it won't be me who gets prosecuted, there are documented cases where someone has been injured using an AR appliance and the engineer didn't get convicted of anything, they cannot convict him or the system would be at fault, but my arris is well and truly covered in fully completed accurate and recorded paperwork

 

[kirkgas]

Common sense has long left this country, its all about CYA

 

[lame plumber]

hear where your coming from, but I dont ever want to be in the position of seeing a kid killed due to a stupid parent, when its avoidable, and if you call gsr they always tell you its your call, your the one on the ground, so getting it "wrong" isnt an issue in my mind, and we can argue this one till the cows come home, if its off for AR then ID ing it and capping it is a no brainer in my southern mind, butr feel free to forward your number and I'll pass it on as down where I am is flat/hovel city being a seaside town full of brums/liverpudlians on holiday and this is a common one. So if its me its capped and no choice, not had gas safe kicking my butt yet and the landlords cant argue as its an issue they have to deal with anyhow.

 

[dancinplumba]

You cannot cap off without permission

 

[lame plumber]

pardon, hearings going I'm sure you said yes

 

[jtsplumbing]

I Support what Lame is saying, let Gas safe send out one of their inspectors and put his name on the certificate, they wont commit to anything ! always put it on the back of the installer, and no doubt will be looking for a scapegoat if there is an incident.

 

[Reg Man]

Definitely AR, can't be ID unless it is spilling POC or leaking gas.

 

[kirkgas]

hear where your coming from, but I dont ever want to be in the position of seeing a kid killed due to a stupid parent, when its avoidable, and if you call gsr they always tell you its your call, your the one on the ground, so getting it "wrong" isnt an issue in my mind, and we can argue this one till the cows come home, if its off for AR then ID ing it and capping it is a no brainer in my southern mind, butr feel free to forward your number and I'll pass it on as down where I am is flat/hovel city being a seaside town full of brums/liverpudlians on holiday and this is a common one. So if its me its capped and no choice, not had gas safe kicking my butt yet and the landlords cant argue as its an issue they have to deal with anyhow.

Yes we can argue all day about it, won't change the fact that I'm complying with the Regs and you are acting outwith them haha

 

[snowhead]

Simple

A.R it, then with the gas users permission turn off the appliance,, and cap it off.

The paperwork matches the Regs, you've just gone a bit further.

 

[dancinplumba]

Only turn off with AR. ID you cap off

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Yes we can argue all day about it, won't change the fact that I'm complying with the Regs and you are acting outwith them haha

Even though Kirk is right we all want what Lame said to be right, don't we

 

[Millsy 82]

Even though Kirk is right we all want what Lame said to be right, don't we

Pretty much. I hate AR why not have not to current standards and fail would make life alot easier.

I would do as Kirk says get all the paperwork signed turn off not cap and advise on the cp12 what needs to be done. Its then up to the landlord. The company I used to work with got investigated not for a death but a potential CO incedent I think it was a flue in a void no hatches no visual signs but a twin flue not sealed properley. Landlord refused CO detectors so it got put down as AR showed them the correct paperwork and that was the end of it. Dont know what happened to the landlord hope he got screwed.

 

[GrahamM]

AR or ID are you willing to 'put your name to something that doesnt come under common sense nowadays. It will soon pop up to ID status once a couple of bods dont wake up. Personally Id would tell the landlord it needs sorting now, and cap it, then if kirkie wants to pop down and reconnect, I'll forward a contact number. I wouldnt sleep in a room in that situation nowadays. But thats my personal opinion - and its my arse, especially if a jackdaw decides to take up residence in the chimney, which they do for a past time in my area, especially when the cowls get a bit old and dodgy and the seagulls whip them off. I have had to deal with 2 cases like this in recent years with blocked flues, so I wont accept it as an ncs or ar and after all every time you call gas safe , they tell you its the engineers descition on the spot dont they!

AR/ID the required result is to turn off the appliance, but one form allows the user to turn it back on!! So my attitude to prevent this is to cap and go, with an ID to support me. If they refused to turn it off for an AR then what, its you that gets the accusing finger if things go pearshaped and youd be guilty in some eyes so would you be happy to walk away? As it a landlord issue, then not doing anything isnt deemed acceptable either is it. So in my simple mind it needs capping based on dates given and sorting, may not be as per written regs, but gas safe wont support you either way imho and your the one there and the one who'll be blamed longterm.

The rules/regs are there to be followed and wither you agree with them or not you should not be making up your own as you go along.
This is an AR situation at very most and to make it ID and cap off does not make you the better engineer. Especially if someone gets job after you and reconnects supply and leaves AR.

What next? Are you going to ID for having 85% of required combustion ventilation?

Follow the regs to best of your knowledge, if unsure seek assistance. Fully explain the situation to responsible person and get paperwork signed. Leave as the regs dictate.
You have done your job!

 

[lame plumber]

The rules/regs are there to be followed and wither you agree with them or not you should not be making up your own as you go along.
This is an AR situation at very most and to make it ID and cap off does not make you the better engineer. Especially if someone gets job after you and reconnects supply and leaves AR.

What next? Are you going to ID for having 85% of required combustion ventilation?

Follow the regs to best of your knowledge, if unsure seek assistance. Fully explain the situation to responsible person and get paperwork signed. Leave as the regs dictate.
You have done your job!

whether or not you think Im wrong in this situation doesnt affect my decitions in this sort of situation, As gsr helpline will tell you, your there your decision, I would decide to cap it as there are too many variables ie landlord and tenants. If you wanted to come along and reconnect a setup like this then AR it, you would need your head examined as you would be setting up an unsafe situation, so think on on that one. We can all agree to disagree, in the end its your own assessment of the situation and you cant be faulted for being too safe only unsafe, so lets get realistic here and stop being prissy beggars and make sure we dont advice beople to set up an unsafe situation like you suggest! You know my feelings on this one so Im out of here now.

 

[ed209]

If you really want to ID look out for signs of spillage

 

[snowhead]

Only turn off with AR. ID you cap off

With I.D you have to cap.
With A.R you don't have to but nothing stops you from actually doing it.

 

[lame plumber]

With I.D you have to cap.
With A.R you don't have to but nothing stops you from actually doing it.

ding ding round 5

 

[Mike Jackson]

It's all very well saying that you will cap off an AR situation but the guidelines stipulate that it can only be done with the permission of the responsible person. You now need to explain to them why the back boiler that has been working fine for 20 years and still appears to be working fine is now immediately dangerous.

As long as you stick to the regs you are covered. Just make sure that you get people to sign everything and explain the possible consequences should they continue to use the appliance.

I'm all for gas safety but I need to make a living and getting a reputation as that bloke that keeps disconnecting stuff when it's not necessary doesn't help my cash flow.

People are in danger of putting their underpants on over their trousers and starring in the new super hero movie - Captain Over Zealous.

 

[hammers4spanner]

The real point is that you acknowledge the issue wether AR or ID and inform and address the issue with cust because i can tell you now the way this industry is at the moment i reckon a good percentage of gas engineers would not even recognise the issue and crack on and service it.

some of the stuff i'm seeing at the moment is horrific

 

[snowhead]

It's all very well saying that you will cap off an AR situation but the guidelines stipulate that it can only be done with the permission of the responsible person. You now need to explain to them why the back boiler that has been working fine for 20 years and still appears to be working fine is now immediately dangerous.
.

You have to explain why it's At Risk (of being a danger) to get permission to turn it off for A.R.

The phrase Immediately Dangerous doesn't need to come into the conversation as it's not appropriate.

 

[Mike Jackson]

You have to explain why it's At Risk (of being a danger) to get permission to turn it off for A.R.

The phrase Immediately Dangerous doesn't need to come into the conversation as it's not appropriate.

If immediately dangerous doesn't come into the conversation neither should capping off as it is not the appropriate action for an AR appliance. My point was that if you are saying it should be capped off you are implying that it is ID.

 

[firemant]

You don't need permission to turn it off under AR. You only turn it off at the customer control, or maybe the electrical isolation, apply the paperwork, and the client then decides whether to continue to use it.

You need permission to disconnect.

 

[Reg Man]

ID or AR it won't be used. Lets look at it on a legal position. Your standing in court in front of some smart arse barrister; he questions you on your actions in ID'ing the BBU in a bedroom, then throws the IUSSP in your face and says that you are not competent because the industry procedure says this is AR, so why did you say it was ID. Credibility undermined round 1 to the accused.

 

[kirkgas]

ID or AR it won't be used. Lets look at it on a legal position. Your standing in court in front of some smart arse barrister; he questions you on your actions in ID'ing the BBU in a bedroom, then throws the IUSSP in your face and says that you are not competent because the industry procedure says this is AR, so why did you say it was ID. Credibility undermined round 1 to the accused.

Exactly my view point on this, if I comply with THEIR regs I cannot be held accountable or their system is at fault and that won't be allowed to happen.
Ok as mrs T says perhaps we want a reg change but until that happens I'm using their rules and won't be held as incompetent for choosing what regs I comply with and what regs I change to suit my opinion

 

[kirkgas]

You don't need permission to turn it off under AR. You only turn it off at the customer control, or maybe the electrical isolation, apply the paperwork, and the client then decides whether to continue to use it.

You need permission to disconnect.

Are you sure about this statement?

 

[dancinplumba]

Ridiculous is all this, specially as it's an open forum

 

[hammers4spanner]

Ridiculous is all this, specially as it's an open forum

agree just sounds like nobody knows what they are doing

 

[bewsh]

Isn't there a silly rule that if someone is using the room as a bedroom due to serious illness (unable to go upstairs, etc...) that it's only NCS instead of AR as well? Or am I thinking of something else?

 

[hammers4spanner]

Isn't there a silly rule that if someone is using the room as a bedroom due to serious illness (unable to go upstairs, etc...) that it's only NCS instead of AR as well? Or am I thinking of something else?

in other words you saw one today in this scenario and put ncs

 

[bewsh]

in other words you saw one today in this scenario and put ncs

Haha! No, no, I've been on a training course all week. But I'm sure I saw something in the unsafe-sits in the viper book.

 

[Hampshiregas]

Bewsh, can't say I have heard of that. On the topic if a boiler was installed before 1996 in a bedroom it's NCS. If room has changed use post 1996, then it can have a cupboard built around it with adequate ventilation and a FSD fitted. However I believe this may just reduce the classification to NCS.

Regarding classification if a boiler is AR, unless the customer complains, it goes off, on the spur, with their permission. Fill out your paperwork and notify the customer not to turn it on until rectification work has been carried out. When an ID is issued, regardless of the customers feelings, the boiler is off and supply is cut and capped. When in that situation and the customer flatly refuses and gets aggressive, I would report the job and details to my company, fill out the paperwork and if self employed notify gas safe.

i don't believe you can over classify, you have to look after your own a### it's your job, your livelihood. I would rather ID a job, safe in the knowledge I can sleep well and the customer is also going to wake up in the morning.

So with that said I would still AR the baxi Bermuda. I know your friend did not change the use of the room, but as a landlord I would demand they change it back.

 

[bewsh]

Just had a look in a corgi unsafe-sits book and it says that if the living room is temporarily used as a bedroom due to ill health then the open flued appliance may be classified as NCS, but with additional measures recommended, eg CO alarm.

And I agree, you won't get in trouble for over-classifying an unsafe situation, but you will be in trouble if you under-classify it and something happens. But that said, if the regs state it's AR and you've gone through the correct procedure then if something was to happen to someone in that room, you could not be blamed for it.

 

[Hampshiregas]

Exactly, it's all about looking after number one, that way the customers are looked after also.

 

[Millsy 82]

Exactly, it's all about looking after number one, that way the customers are looked after also.

I appreciate that you are looking out for number 1 but this is a no brainer really as its in black and white. Would you ar a cooker with no chain to look after yourself. would you ID a flue that is not clipped but in perfectly good order. No so why do that on this. You carry out your checks if it passes everything else visually inspect the termination of the flue to make sure it is still there so no little birdies can make a nice warm home in it. Then explain the issues with the tenant stating that the boiler is at risk due to blah blah then the landlord and say the same again and let him turn round to the tenant and say that they should not be sleeping in the lounge.

I have had this twice in the last couple of years always followed that and never had a sleepless night nor worried about it not even when somebody else went and turned it back on with out even noting it as I had the correct paper work all signed. If you want to be extra safe take a time stamped photo with the at risk sticker and paper work next to it just to prove you did all that.